Australian Army Discussions and Updates

MARKMILES77

Active Member
All of the bids for the LAND 400 Cavalry Vehicle are now in.
The turret/vehicle combination to be offered by BAE Systems and Rheinmetall are now known but is there any information on which hull has been offered by GDLS and what turret will be fitted?

Both BAE and Rheinmetall look to have very strong bids particularly considering they will be able to offer an in-service tracked vehicle fitted with the same turret for the next phase of LAND 400.
 

Stock

Member
All of the bids for the LAND 400 Cavalry Vehicle are now in.
The turret/vehicle combination to be offered by BAE Systems and Rheinmetall are now known but is there any information on which hull has been offered by GDLS and what turret will be fitted?

Both BAE and Rheinmetall look to have very strong bids particularly considering they will be able to offer an in-service tracked vehicle fitted with the same turret for the next phase of LAND 400.
GD's vehicle is still a mystery, but looks like they've gone with the MCT-30 unmanned turret from Kongsberg as primary turret option.

Not sure if Rheinmetall will offer Puma. If Army sticks with its requirement for 8 dismounts they may not put forward Puma as it can only carry 6 troops even with an unmanned turret.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
GD's vehicle is still a mystery, but looks like they've gone with the MCT-30 unmanned turret from Kongsberg as primary turret option.

Not sure if Rheinmetall will offer Puma. If Army sticks with its requirement for 8 dismounts they may not put forward Puma as it can only carry 6 troops even with an unmanned turret.
I think that Rheinmetal has submitted the Boxer with a two man turret.
MB
 

Stock

Member
I think that Rheinmetal has submitted the Boxer with a two man turret.
MB
They have offered the two-man Lance turret on Boxer CRV, which also comes in an unmanned configuration.

The Lance turret and 30mm weapon system is highly capable and cutting edge from what I'm told.
 

Stock

Member
ST Kinetics and Elbit Systems Australia's entry to LAND400.

ST Kinetics unveils next-generation Terrex 2 amphibious armoured vehicle - IHS Jane's 360

The Terrex 2 is basically a souped-up beast compared to the original, especially in terms of improved armoured protection and amphib capabilities. There is no mention of which turret would be mounted, but that would most likely be a COTS solution.
Certainly won't be 30 tonnes GVM once they slap STANAG Level 6 protection onto it.
 

Stock

Member
Article from today's The Australian re DWP. Looks like reduced numbers of IFVs under Ph 3 of Land 400. Won't surprise too many people.


$70bn defence boost builds sea defences

The Australian
September 12, 2015 12:00AM

Australia’s new defence blueprint will commit more than $70 billion to create the most powerful navy in Australia’s history — including eight new submarines and 12 new warships — but will come at a cost to the army, which will have fewer armoured vehicles for future operations.

The heavy emphasis on maritime power ahead of land forces in the forthcoming defence white paper reflects ongoing concern about the pace and scale of China’s growing naval capabilities, although the document is not expected to concede publicly that there is a connection.

The decision to choose eight submarines instead of the Abbott government’s election promise of 12 new boats is likely to anger South Australia but it is understood that the white paper will keep open the possibility of a further four submarines being built at a later date.

The white paper process has been thrown into turmoil by Tony Abbott’s decision last month to shore up votes in South Australia by announcing a naval shipbuilding plan at odds with that recommended by defence.

Faced with disastrous polling in that state, the Prime Minister brought forward the construction of the navy’s future frigates in Adelaide and new offshore patrol vessels to reduce shipbuilding job losses in South Australia.

But the move caused havoc for defence planners, who have had to rewrite much of the white paper to accommodate the rescheduled shipbuilding program and have delayed the release of the policy blueprint, due last month, until early November.

The Weekend Australian under*stands the draft calls for the strongest naval force yet seen in this country and will include eight new 4000-tonne submarines, nine new large frigates, the three Air Warfare Destroyers being built and 10 new larger offshore patrol vessel*s, with a further four multi-role OPVs at a later date.

It says the naval build-up is needed in the face of continued uncertainty in the South China Sea, where Beijing has competing territorial claims with Japan and other nations, and elsewhere in the Indo-Pacific region.

The white paper will not publicly single out China as a potential threat but the navy-first strategy of the white paper reflects concerns inside defence about Beijing’s double-digit defence spending in recent years.

China is investing heavily in new warships and submarines as Beijing seeks the ability to project power well beyond its waters.

At the same time, the document will foreshadow enhanced defence co-operation with the US, including more US marines rotations through Darwin and greater access in northern Australia for the US Air Force.

The government says its white paper will be fully costed, unlike Labor’s 2013 white paper, and will outline real increases in defence spending to take it above the government’s promised 2 per cent of GDP by 2023-24.

However, the $70bn price tag of the new naval forces over the next 20 years has forced Defence to make cuts in other areas, with the size of the army’s planned new armoured fighting vehicle fleet to be reduced.

Under the so-called Land 400 project, worth at least $10bn, the army is replacing its 253 Australian Light Armoured Vehicles, which have seen service in Afghanistan, Iraq and East Timor, with 225 combat recon*naissance vehicles.

But it is the second phase of this program, the replacement of the 1960s-era M113 armoured personnel carriers, that will be hit by the cuts.

The army was hoping to acquire about 450 hi-tech infantry fighting vehicles from 2025 to replace* the 700 M113s, but this number will now be reduced.
Former army chief Lieutenant General David Morrison warned in May that his “major concern’’ was that there could be cuts to Land 400, given the big-ticket naval and air force projects and the end of major land operations in Afghanistan and Iraq.

“Army too needs to have *proper and appropriate funding for Land 400 because, if we don’t have that, you’re going to have soldiers operating in theatres in the future where they simply don’t have the protection, the mobility and the firepower that they will need,” he said.

The Royal Australian Air Force will be greatly strengthened, with the RAAF winning support for its planned 72 new F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, and the decision on a further 28 fighters delayed until next decade.

For the first time, the RAAF will acquire giant unmanned Triton drones, capable of patrolling about 100,000sq km of ocean, to help monitor Australia’s maritime approaches.

The white paper will also include plans to purchase Australia’s first armed drones.

The decision to initially build eight submarines rather than 12 reflects concerns that a 12-boat program would distort defence budget priorities and swallow up funds needed for other important capabilities.

Navy would also struggle to crew a 12-boat fleet.

Although Defence Minister Kevin Andrews or Tony Abbott could still change the numbers in the draft white paper, all recent meetings inside Defence on new submarines have discussed an eight-boat fleet.

The nations competing for the right to design the new submarines — Germany, France and Japan — have been told to base costings and building schedules on eight submarines.

The construction of the submarines from the mid-2020s is expected to cost about $20bn, with a further $40bn in sustainment costs over their lifetime.

The government will decide early next year which country will design the submarines and where they will be built.

The nine new frigates will also cost $20bn and will be much large than the 3500-tonne Anzacs they will replace. The British Type 26 Global Defence Ship is considered the frontrunner, but the large German F125-class and the French FREMM multi-mission vessel are also likely contenders.

The white paper will call for the $19bn construction of 10 new OPVs, to be known as Corvettes, to be followed by four multi-role Corvettes, which can also hunt mines and do hydrographic tasks. They will be substantially larger than the 13 Armidale-class patrol boats they are replacing. The navy is also about to receive the second of its two large amphibious Landing Helicopter Docks, giving it the ability to move large supplies of troops and equipment.
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
The white paper will call for the $19bn construction of 10 new OPVs
Has to be a typo doesn't it?
Either a typo or these are going to be high end OPVs/Corvettes with much more than a simple 25mm gun as it's main weapon.
 

Stock

Member
Has to be a typo doesn't it?
Either a typo or these are going to be high end OPVs/Corvettes with much more than a simple 25mm gun as it's main weapon.
Wouldn't read too much into that one. Considering the UK ordered three 90m, 1800t modified River-class OPVs last year for about AUD$750 million, you'd think Australia should be able to get 10 similar-sized and similarly capable OPVs for under $5 billion. Even given the premium attached to local construction and several years of through-life support thrown in. Surely.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Wouldn't read too much into that one. Considering the UK ordered three 90m, 1800t modified River-class OPVs last year for about AUD$750 million, you'd think Australia should be able to get 10 similar-sized and similarly capable OPVs for under $5 billion. Even given the premium attached to local construction and several years of through-life support thrown in. Surely.
The number does seem high. Canada's AOPS program has a projected cost of 3.5 billion CDN for 6 ships which will be built in Halifax by Irving. Some here are claiming this amount will only allow for 5 ships.
 

Ballistic

Member
How far can they cut back Phase 3 without seriously impacting the lift requirements? Surely they could defer purchasing the entire fleet until a later date? As far as Ph 3 is concerned, how many battalions were supposed to be covered by the IFV? All, half?

I wonder how this will affect the ACR?

As much as RAAF and RAN need new gear, this needs to be better balanced so all services get the gear they require. This "robbing peter to pay paul" business needs to get sorted out.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
How far can they cut back Phase 3 without seriously impacting the lift requirements? Surely they could defer purchasing the entire fleet until a later date? As far as Ph 3 is concerned, how many battalions were supposed to be covered by the IFV? All, half?

I wonder how this will affect the ACR?

As much as RAAF and RAN need new gear, this needs to be better balanced so all services get the gear they require. This "robbing peter to pay paul" business needs to get sorted out.
The "robbing Peter to pay Paul" business is not unique to Australia. Canada's armed forces require huge recapitalization. Our army is somewhat better of due to equipment purchases for Afghanistan but the other two services require billions. The RCAF needs money for 65 F-35s. The navy needs even more, 15 new warships, AORs, and eventually 4-6 subs. Last year the RCN got only 12% of the defence budget! Given the current economic situation, there may be pressure to go cheap on the RCAF because the navy is in such terrible condition. Overall, Australia is in much better shape.
 

knightrider4

Active Member
The "robbing Peter to pay Paul" business is not unique to Australia. Canada's armed forces require huge recapitalization. Our army is somewhat better of due to equipment purchases for Afghanistan but the other two services require billions. The RCAF needs money for 65 F-35s. The navy needs even more, 15 new warships, AORs, and eventually 4-6 subs. Last year the RCN got only 12% of the defence budget! Given the current economic situation, there may be pressure to go cheap on the RCAF because the navy is in such terrible condition. Overall, Australia is in much better shape.
Lets just remember this is an article from the Australian not renowned for the accuracy of its defence reporting. I would pay attention if it came from the government obviously. If the IFV numbers are cut then Plan Beersheba is gone.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Lets just remember this is an article from the Australian not renowned for the accuracy of its defence reporting. I would pay attention if it came from the government obviously. If the IFV numbers are cut then Plan Beersheba is gone.

In Canada the accuracy of government versus media information is indistinguishable.
 

Stock

Member
How far can they cut back Phase 3 without seriously impacting the lift requirements? Surely they could defer purchasing the entire fleet until a later date? As far as Ph 3 is concerned, how many battalions were supposed to be covered by the IFV? All, half?

I wonder how this will affect the ACR?

As much as RAAF and RAN need new gear, this needs to be better balanced so all services get the gear they require. This "robbing peter to pay paul" business needs to get sorted out.
While the RAN and RAAF were arguing for the capabilities they needed, the previous Chief of Army preferred to focus on gender equality issues. Is it any wonder Army has been steamrolled when the boss has been preoccupied with setting himself up for life after Army?
 

Stock

Member
Lets just remember this is an article from the Australian not renowned for the accuracy of its defence reporting. I would pay attention if it came from the government obviously. If the IFV numbers are cut then Plan Beersheba is gone.
Be interested in hearing what Raven22 knows about this and what flow-on effect it will have on the ACR.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I actually hope Beersheeba is gone.
Australia had a flexible Army post WW11. Beersheeba would see 3, close to identical brigades. Really, all it brings is rotational readiness, of the 3 battle groups' with one ready to deploy, one coming up to readiness, and one coming off, and regrouping.
It has been done before, on a much smaller scale.
If the political will is not there (read ALP) there will only ever be enough man power to keep one Brigade at readiness, robbing the other 2 brigades of resources every rotation.
Having 3 light infantry brigades, as we have had for years, rotate readiness, and do the same with squadrons of Engineers, Armd etc, it will work in a similar way anyway.
 

Jezza

Member
"The Prime Minister is set to announce a project to equip the Army with Australian built and designed blast proof armoured vehicles worth $1.5 billion.

Malcolm Turnbull and Defence Minister Marise Payne will be in Victoria to detail the new spending which will include a thousand new vehicles.

The Hawkei, which is built in the Victorian city of Bendigo, has been chosen in a hard-fought international contest."PM to boost army fleet with $1.5b injection
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
"The Prime Minister is set to announce a project to equip the Army with Australian built and designed blast proof armoured vehicles worth $1.5 billion.

Malcolm Turnbull and Defence Minister Marise Payne will be in Victoria to detail the new spending which will include a thousand new vehicles.

The Hawkei, which is built in the Victorian city of Bendigo, has been chosen in a hard-fought international contest."PM to boost army fleet with $1.5b injection
blast resistant - not blast proof
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Be interested in hearing what Raven22 knows about this and what flow-on effect it will have on the ACR.
I have heard that money had been taken out of the budget for Land400, but for Phase 2 and not Phase 3. It sounds like money has been taken out of both, which isn't a good sign (although who knows what will happen with a new PM and defence minister).

One thing at is probably worth pointing out, is that the current BOP for Land400 is actually very generous. On current plans there will be 225 CRVs to equip just three squadrons, and 450 IFVs to mount the fighting elements of just three infantry battalions. Compare that to Germany, which is buying just 350 Puma and 272 Boxer to equip a force of 15 armoured and mechanised infantry battalions. It is entirely possible that Australia could end up with more Puma/Boxer than Germany, which is quite surprising when you think about it.

The 450 figure for the IFV is based off an assumption that each IFV can hold only six dismounts, and therefore a total of eight vehicles are needed to lift a platoon (and 26 to lift a company). Compare that to the four vehicles per platoon in just about every other army. In fact, on that BOP, a single Australian IFV troop of 26 vehicles is almost as large as entire soviet bloc battalion (with 31 vehicles).

The BOP for the CRV is similarly generous. On current thinking, a future cavalry squadron will have four 6-vehicle troops plus a four vehicle SHQ, for a total of 28 vehicles (plus the A1 ech). Compare that to a British recce squadron of three 4-vehicle troops plus a two-vehicle SHQ, for a total of 14 vehicles. An Australian squadron therefore is literally twice the size of a British squadron.

When you consider that, individually, the vehicles being sought by army are the best money can buy, it is clear that a reduction in budget may not be as disasterous as it might otherwise be.

It will be interesting, if the budget has been reduced, how they go about reducing costs. Having a think about it, there are many ways this could be done:

One way to reduce the number of vehicles, and hence cost, is to mandate that each vehicle must hold eight dismounts. Therefore each section could consist of just six vehicles instead of eight. Of course, there essentially are no vehicles that meet the likely Phase 3 requirements and hold 8 dismounts, so this may not be workable at all.

Another way to save money would be to make the Phase 3 solution the same as the Phase 2 solution - ie, have a wheeled IFV instead of a tracked one. While not ideal, this would likely make the full 450 vehicles affordable.

Similarly, haveing a majority of vehicles being APCs and not IFVs (ie not turreted) could be a solution. You would need less vehicles, as non turreted vehicles could hold eight dismounts, plus save money as you don't have to pay for the turrets or a third crew member. Compare the cost of a six vehicle APC section (with 12 crew members and 48 dismounts) to an eight vehicle IFV section (with 24 crew members, 48 dismounts and all the costs of the 30+mm cannon and ATGM). Of course, you would lose huge amounts of combat power doing this, so it's far from ideal.

If you look at Land400 holistically, there are other outside the box solutions as well. For instance, having only APCs instead of IFVs loses huge amounts of combat power, but there are other ways of providing his combat power. On current estimates, an M1 tank is about a third of the cost of projected Land400 vehicles. Through life costs are likely slightly more for the tank, but not by a huge amount. Perhaps a bigger buy of tanks is a way of adding the combat power needed to cater for the loss of the IFVs firepower?

Just considering the vehicles needed to lift the rifle companies, an IFV-based squadron would need 78 IFVs and 234 crew. An APC-based squadron would need 60 vehicles and 120 crew to do the same job. Reinvest this saving into a second tank squadron (14 tanks and 56 crew) and you would likely still save money. Maybe the answer is not more IFVs but more tanks?

Having said all that, all I think will happen if money has been taken out is that less vehicles will be bought. I think army will still demand a gold-plated solution in terms of a full IFV, and will simply accept having less vehicles in total to still get this. As I mentioned earlier, the BOP is already quite generous, so this will hardly be the end of the world, and there is no reason more can't be bought later (as happened with ASLAV and Bushmaster and, likely, the M1).
 
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