You do realise what an LCAC can do yes ? As the Spanish have done with JC1 the LCAC enters the dock not flooded
You don't need the steel beach when she is not docked downCheers
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
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You don't need the steel beach when she is not docked downCheers
t68
Well-Known Member
I guess what really needs to be sorted is how far down does the centreline buffer run and would it impede the loading of heavy equipment from linking up the bow gate of the LCACYou do realise what an LCAC can do yes ? As the Spanish have done with JC1 the LCAC enters the dock not flooded
Cheers
Yeah that's great but what do the LCM-1Es do without a flooded dock and steel beach?You do realise what an LCAC can do yes ? As the Spanish have done with JC1 the LCAC enters the dock not flooded
Cheers
Exactly right, that's why we have the LCM's and have absolutely no intention of getting or using LCAC's, so the discussion is a moot point really, the ability is there, the Spanish have used it, will we ?
Maybe when we play with the USMC, but not likely or too often, it is a capability we don't need, wont use and a pretty expensive one to boot for just 2 LHD's.
We simply will not use them in the way a USMC ARG will, if we are going anywhere hot, we wont be the first on the beach
Cheers
Agree entirely. All very academic really.
I wonder also if the fact the LCAC is not qualified/certified to operate the LCAC would prevent it from being an option in training/operations.
Maybe there are plans to do this, although the legacy LCAC is being replaced by a new (very similar) craft over coming years, so it would likely need to be redone within 5 years.
I have asked a mate who should be able to shed some light and will report back if he does.
To me, the real questions surround the crucial LCH-R capability. But, as was said this week, until we know what the LCH-R is required to do it's very difficult to discuss much with any real clarity.
Bring on the DWP.
Some say the DWP (or the ship-building plan) will be released on the 3rd week this month.
So it is coming soon!
I hate the wait, Just like the bloody movies get you really into it then you wait and wait and wait.. Ugh!
I would doubt that there would be any real push to certify the Canberra's for LCAC Ops in the short to medium term, we have enough to learn from the US in Amphib operations than trying to learn the limited use of LCAC's we would have, so guessing it would be very low on the list.
Never say never though
Cheers
Just had it confirmed that the baffle is fixed. An internal proposal was put to Navy some years ago to design a removable baffle but this was dismissed.I would doubt that there would be any real push to certify the Canberra's for LCAC Ops in the short to medium term, we have enough to learn from the US in Amphib operations than trying to learn the limited use of LCAC's we would have, so guessing it would be very low on the list.
Never say never though
Cheers
As to LCAC compatibility here's what was said: "You could operate an LCAC with the dock “damp”- that is flooded down to sea level, but the a.se would protrude which would limit the conditions you could do it in."
Baffle is fixed, but it could be removed in a refit I could imagine(Permanently cut out). Moved to the side it make something that looks like USMC or Mistral dock.
You have the issue of getting the LCAC there as well if not able to fit into a LHD with a baffle. They also use ~1000 Gallons of fuel per hour you might as well be operating 737's off the LHD(verse the ~110gal/hr for a LCM-1E at full load). A LCAC could pick /drop off things up to a LHD in a joint operation, but I don't think its seriously an purchase option Australia should consider.
A removable baffle would open the door to any USMC connector, as well as L-Cat. UHAC will be interesting space to watch.
The USMC is assessing L-Cat to replace its lcm-8. Which would be a lot cheaper and less draining to operate than LCAC and give it a greater range with is inline with the new doctrine of operating much further out. Once in theater they can/could also perform some minor intra-lift. Being a much bigger and faster craft, maybe ,more seaworthy it opens more options, particularly operating in an archipelago region.
I imagine after the LCM-8/Kanimbla modifications and LCM2000 issues I would imagine the Navy wanted a dead simple low risk solution.
But its more money to make delivery slightly faster in some conditions. IMO UHAC will be interesting to watch as it may be better than LCAC in difficult stuff like mangroves or rocky shores.
Much of this stuff was discussed in this thread back in 2009.
Mate, here you go!
So it seems we may need some blessing from our kiwi friends (for 2 extra frigates) to achieve the continuous build, WA took over the all submarine maintenance, Japanese export the Soryu, frigate works shared between Williamstown and Techport, and "corvettes" either from WA or NSW. Everything practically the same as the "Captain's pick"......
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
"Frigates for SA, Victoria may help rebuild fortunes
Tony Abbott will look this week to secure the future of the naval shipbuilding industry with a major announcement expected to include a $20 billion plan to build nine frigates in South Australia and Victoria.
The Prime Minister’s intention is to make naval shipbuilding sustainable by getting it on to a “continuous build” program and to shore up political support for the Coalition in South Australia.
Since it backed away from its pledge to build 12 submarines there, the government has faced a backlash that could see it losing up to four House of Representatives seats and two Senate seats in a state already battered by job losses in the motor vehicle industry.
Getting the fraught issue of shipbuilding jobs off the agenda would also give the government more room to move on where it will have the navy’s new submarines built.
The plan to build new frigates may mean retiring some of the navy’s eight Anzac-class frigates early. But even if an existing design is chosen, it is likely that the first “cutting of steel” for the new ships — to be fitted with a revolutionary Australian-designed air defence radar system — will be at least two years away.
In addition to the frigates, the “continuous build” process is *expected ultimately to be *extended to a dozen or more “offshore patrol vessels”, possibly to be rated as corvettes, which would be bigger than the navy’s current patrol boats but smaller than the frigates.
Frigates are considered the navy’s workhorses, with the existing fleet of eight Anzac warships having been on near-continuous operations in the Middle East and elsewhere for decades. The Anzac vessels, and two ships for New Zealand, were built in Australia from a German design in a successful project that was brought in on time and on budget.
It is expected that the government will call for expressions of interest from countries including Britain, Germany and France for existing warship designs. A frontrunner is the British
Type 26 Global Defence Ship. Two other European options are the very large German F125 and the French FREMM multi-mission frigate.
New Zealand has already shown an interest in buying the British Type 26 and, if the Anzac frigate example is followed, those vessels could ultimately be built in Australia.
Defence Minister Kevin Andrews has previously set strict conditions for any plan to build the frigates in Australia. He has said there must be a well-inte*grated designer, builder and supplier team and that mature designs of vessels would be considered ahead of designing a new class of vessel from scratch or making extensive modifications to existing designs.
In addition, the capability the navy needed must be thoroughly tested against more readily available warships, the number of design changes the navy could insist on must be limited and enough time must be spent planning at the start of the project to ensure it was going to run smoothly.
German industrial giant ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems and the French DCNS are both keen to build the submarines and frigates either in Australia or in their yards in Europe.
Another in a complex set of policy questions being dealt with by the National Security Committee of cabinet is the question of what happens to the government-owned, Adelaide-based shipbuilder ASC.
ASC could be split into two entities — one to maintain submarines and the other to build warships. If the government opts to sell part or all of ASC, it will be much more valuable if it has a major contract to make it viable.
The West Australian-based shipbuilder Austal has already said it would consider buying all or some of ASC, as have the Germans and Sweden’s SAAB Australia."
FormerDirtDart
Well-Known Member
1. The USMC doesn't own any "connectors" LCAC, LCU, LCM-8 or otherwise.
2. The "US Navy" has been replacing their worn-out LCM-8, for nearly ten years, with the Maritime Pre-positioning Force Utility Boat (MPFUB), also called the Maritime Prepositioning Force Utility Landing Craft:
View attachment 6574
It carries 30 pax and their gear, or 10 tons of cargo.
3. The US Navy isn't looking at the L-CAT for much the same reason they are not looking for significant improvement in capabilities with the LCU replacement (Surface Connector (X) Recapitalization). It could possibly be seen as redundant to the LCAC, and threaten the funding for both programs. The US Navy may have looked at the L-CAT in conjunction with the LCAC(X) "LCAC Replacement Tactical Assault Connector"/Ship-to-Shore Connector program. But, the SSC LCAC-100 has already been selected.
4. The L-CAT has been mentioned in industry reporting and here in a thread started by me as a possible candidate in the "US Army's" Maneuver Support Vessel Light (MSV(L)) program, to replace their LCM-8. But, the US Army has made no such admission. As an aside, there is no requirement in the MSV(L) program to be compatible with the welldecks of US Navy amphibious warfare vessels.
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t68
Well-Known Member
I have not seen any guarantee's that RNZN would build there replacements here, but I am starting to wonder with all this talk of corvettes and depending on the size and complexity of them and the fitted but not with option, would the RNZN favour a build of 3-4 corvettes if the price of the next gen frigate was too high.
And do wonder the implications of such a move, would it be something similar to when aunty disbanded the ACF
And do wonder the implications of such a move, would it be something similar to when aunty disbanded the ACF
Muar River
Member
weegee
Active Member
I came accross this today. Seems to be the Libs are desperate to get some positive news happening for Gov after the Madam speaker scenario, To the point of pre-empting the the white paper.
"Shipbuilding industry awaits announcement on Future Frigates as Tony Abbott, Cabinet visit Adelaide
Updated about 11 hours ago
HMAS Hobart on launch day
PHOTO: Shipbuilders involved in the AWD project are hoping for an announcement for a new fleet of frigates to be built in Adelaide. (Instagram: Bryce James Parker)
RELATED STORY: Technology giant Siemens pushes for SA submarine buildRELATED STORY: Foreign sub bidders to be given $24m subsidy to prepare tenders
MAP: Adelaide 5000
South Australia's shipbuilding industry is holding its breath as the federal Cabinet arrives in Adelaide for a three-day visit with a series of jobs and project announcements expected.
Prime Minister Tony Abbott has attended a charity fundraiser this afternoon but Industry Minster Ian Macfarlane has already fended off pre-emptive media speculation about defence manufacturing projects worth billions of dollars to SA and Victoria.
This includes nine new ships under its Future Frigate program to replace the ANZAC Class frigates - used primarily for submarine detection and response operations.
Smaller than Air Warfare Destroyers (AWD), they were announced in the 2009 Defence White Paper (DWP) and recommitted to in the 2013 DWP.
An announcement to build the frigates would come after months of intense debate about defence shipbuilding contracts, including a fleet of 12 new submarines the Government promised to build in SA prior to the election but subsequently threatened to send offshore once in power.
The Government has also put local control of the AWD project out to tender after being unimpressed with cost blowouts and the length of time it took for ASC in Adelaide to float the first of three ships it has on order.
It's only when unemployment drops and there's a much greater level of confidence in the South Australian economy that I'd expect those polls to turn around long-term.
Political commentator Professor Clem Macintyre
It is now believed the Government will make an announcement on a frigate build, to be shared between SA and Victoria, in an effort to deflect ongoing criticism about the far more lucrative submarine project.
Prime Minister Tony Abbott confirmed that the Government would make announcements in the next "day or so".
He said it would give South Australians and "naval shipbuilders of this country confidence that they have a strong and dynamic future".
Mr Macfarlane would not be drawn on a frigates announcement and said only that SA had a good record when it came to defence projects.
"The Government will do what we need to do to ensure not only that we defend our borders but also have a substantial defence industry based in Australia," he said.
Independent senator Nick Xenophon urged Mr Abbott to use his current visit to Adelaide to commit to a local build for Australia's future submarine fleet.
Senator Xenophon said South Australia was being offered "consolation prizes" and there needed to be a guarantee on submarines.
"The PM is talking about South Australia becoming an economic powerhouse but how can we have a fighting chance of being that without committing to a $20 billion build for our future submarines."
Handling of subs contract puts Coalition seats 'in trouble'
University of Adelaide political commentator Professor Clem Macintyre said local polling in SA suggested the Coalition was "in trouble" in three seats, including the seat of Sturt, which is held by Education Minister Christopher Pyne.
"Recent polling done in the seat of Sturt shows that if the Xenophon Team, under Nick Xenophon, puts a strong candidate up there then potentially that will shift a lot of votes," he said.
Senator Xenophon has threatened to recruit candidates to target Coalition seats if the submarines are built offshore.
"We shouldn't forget that there is almost an iconic standing around for the submarines and where the submarines are going to be built," Professor Macintyre said.
"The Government before the last election committed to building 12 submarines in Adelaide. All the signs are now that it's going to step back from that and I think this [the frigates] is an attempt to try and find some consolation prize."
A commitment to naval shipbuilding in SA, if there was one, could not come at a better time for the state, with the Australian Bureau of Statistics showing the state with an unemployment rate of 8.2 per cent in June - its worst jobless rate in 15 years and the highest in the country.
SA Treasurer Tom Koutsantonis tweeted that it was "great" to have the Prime Minister and Cabinet in Adelaide for the week.
"Looking forward to see real outcomes that will grow our economy," he said.
Professor Macintyre said if the Coalition received a bounce back in the polls on the back of the visit it would be short-lived.
"It's only when unemployment drops and there's a much greater level of confidence in the South Australian economy that I'd expect those polls to turn around long term," he said."
"Shipbuilding industry awaits announcement on Future Frigates as Tony Abbott, Cabinet visit Adelaide
Updated about 11 hours ago
HMAS Hobart on launch day
PHOTO: Shipbuilders involved in the AWD project are hoping for an announcement for a new fleet of frigates to be built in Adelaide. (Instagram: Bryce James Parker)
RELATED STORY: Technology giant Siemens pushes for SA submarine buildRELATED STORY: Foreign sub bidders to be given $24m subsidy to prepare tenders
MAP: Adelaide 5000
South Australia's shipbuilding industry is holding its breath as the federal Cabinet arrives in Adelaide for a three-day visit with a series of jobs and project announcements expected.
Prime Minister Tony Abbott has attended a charity fundraiser this afternoon but Industry Minster Ian Macfarlane has already fended off pre-emptive media speculation about defence manufacturing projects worth billions of dollars to SA and Victoria.
This includes nine new ships under its Future Frigate program to replace the ANZAC Class frigates - used primarily for submarine detection and response operations.
Smaller than Air Warfare Destroyers (AWD), they were announced in the 2009 Defence White Paper (DWP) and recommitted to in the 2013 DWP.
An announcement to build the frigates would come after months of intense debate about defence shipbuilding contracts, including a fleet of 12 new submarines the Government promised to build in SA prior to the election but subsequently threatened to send offshore once in power.
The Government has also put local control of the AWD project out to tender after being unimpressed with cost blowouts and the length of time it took for ASC in Adelaide to float the first of three ships it has on order.
It's only when unemployment drops and there's a much greater level of confidence in the South Australian economy that I'd expect those polls to turn around long-term.
Political commentator Professor Clem Macintyre
It is now believed the Government will make an announcement on a frigate build, to be shared between SA and Victoria, in an effort to deflect ongoing criticism about the far more lucrative submarine project.
Prime Minister Tony Abbott confirmed that the Government would make announcements in the next "day or so".
He said it would give South Australians and "naval shipbuilders of this country confidence that they have a strong and dynamic future".
Mr Macfarlane would not be drawn on a frigates announcement and said only that SA had a good record when it came to defence projects.
"The Government will do what we need to do to ensure not only that we defend our borders but also have a substantial defence industry based in Australia," he said.
Independent senator Nick Xenophon urged Mr Abbott to use his current visit to Adelaide to commit to a local build for Australia's future submarine fleet.
Senator Xenophon said South Australia was being offered "consolation prizes" and there needed to be a guarantee on submarines.
"The PM is talking about South Australia becoming an economic powerhouse but how can we have a fighting chance of being that without committing to a $20 billion build for our future submarines."
Handling of subs contract puts Coalition seats 'in trouble'
University of Adelaide political commentator Professor Clem Macintyre said local polling in SA suggested the Coalition was "in trouble" in three seats, including the seat of Sturt, which is held by Education Minister Christopher Pyne.
"Recent polling done in the seat of Sturt shows that if the Xenophon Team, under Nick Xenophon, puts a strong candidate up there then potentially that will shift a lot of votes," he said.
Senator Xenophon has threatened to recruit candidates to target Coalition seats if the submarines are built offshore.
"We shouldn't forget that there is almost an iconic standing around for the submarines and where the submarines are going to be built," Professor Macintyre said.
"The Government before the last election committed to building 12 submarines in Adelaide. All the signs are now that it's going to step back from that and I think this [the frigates] is an attempt to try and find some consolation prize."
A commitment to naval shipbuilding in SA, if there was one, could not come at a better time for the state, with the Australian Bureau of Statistics showing the state with an unemployment rate of 8.2 per cent in June - its worst jobless rate in 15 years and the highest in the country.
SA Treasurer Tom Koutsantonis tweeted that it was "great" to have the Prime Minister and Cabinet in Adelaide for the week.
"Looking forward to see real outcomes that will grow our economy," he said.
Professor Macintyre said if the Coalition received a bounce back in the polls on the back of the visit it would be short-lived.
"It's only when unemployment drops and there's a much greater level of confidence in the South Australian economy that I'd expect those polls to turn around long term," he said."
Latest from the Australian and Canberra on future shipbuilding in Australia, Though quite honestly just seems like old information repeated again and again.
-------------------
The centrepiece of the Defence White Paper will be unveiled in Adelaide today, with Tony Abbott to announce $89 billion to build navy ships and submarines, with the “first prize” of an Adelaide-build of the nation’s frigates from 2020.
The Abbott government’s plans for a major defence announcement were revealed by The Australian on Monday.
A guarantee for the future of Adelaide’s shipbuilding industry form part of a job blitz in South Australia, with the Cabinet to meet today to decide on further assistance to the state’s ailing economy.
While shipbuilding job losses at Adelaide-based ASC during the “valley of death” will not be avoided, the government’s commitment to an continual build of ships and submarines will sustain around 1000 jobs in the country’s shipbuilding yards.
As revealed by The Australian, the build of nine frigates at a cost of $20 billion will be based in Adelaide.
The decision is likely to result in a splintering of ASC”s submarine and shipbuilding arms, along with a partial privatisation involving the successful frigate builder.
Mr Abbott said the Defence funding would help address the “valley of death” caused by the decisions of the former Labor government.
He denied the frigates were a consolation prize for future decisions made over the submarine build.
“Well the frigates are coming as the first prize,” Mr Abbott told ABC radio.
“We can build naval ships successfully here in Australia...we are determined to get the best possible ships and submarines for the best possible price, maximising Australian build.”
Mr Abbott said the government had brought forward two defence projects, with the offshore patrol boats now due to be built from 2018 and the construction of the frigates to start in 2020.
“This is the best possible outcome for surface shipbuilding in Australia,” Mr Abbott said.
Mr Abbott said the competitive evaluation of the submarine building bids from international companies did not mean Australian shipyards would miss out on work coming from the $50 billion submarine contract.
---------------------------
In regard's to the costs, Do we know if these are actual number's put forward by those in the know or number's cherry picked by a politician? Used to be 8 frigates built here for $10 billion, then a little while ago out of no where it became $20 billion. Abbott constantly saying Submarine's built in Australia would cost $50 billion or more, But TKMS and DCNS both have said they could build in Australia for $20 - $25 billion, and Japan abroad for $25 billion.. Which gives me the impression Abbott as quoting the build, operation and maintenance costs for the Aussie build but only mentioning the build costs for the Japanese build (Cherry picking numbers).
Hopefully more detail's are forthcoming over the next month or so..
-------------------
The centrepiece of the Defence White Paper will be unveiled in Adelaide today, with Tony Abbott to announce $89 billion to build navy ships and submarines, with the “first prize” of an Adelaide-build of the nation’s frigates from 2020.
The Abbott government’s plans for a major defence announcement were revealed by The Australian on Monday.
A guarantee for the future of Adelaide’s shipbuilding industry form part of a job blitz in South Australia, with the Cabinet to meet today to decide on further assistance to the state’s ailing economy.
While shipbuilding job losses at Adelaide-based ASC during the “valley of death” will not be avoided, the government’s commitment to an continual build of ships and submarines will sustain around 1000 jobs in the country’s shipbuilding yards.
As revealed by The Australian, the build of nine frigates at a cost of $20 billion will be based in Adelaide.
The decision is likely to result in a splintering of ASC”s submarine and shipbuilding arms, along with a partial privatisation involving the successful frigate builder.
Mr Abbott said the Defence funding would help address the “valley of death” caused by the decisions of the former Labor government.
He denied the frigates were a consolation prize for future decisions made over the submarine build.
“Well the frigates are coming as the first prize,” Mr Abbott told ABC radio.
“We can build naval ships successfully here in Australia...we are determined to get the best possible ships and submarines for the best possible price, maximising Australian build.”
Mr Abbott said the government had brought forward two defence projects, with the offshore patrol boats now due to be built from 2018 and the construction of the frigates to start in 2020.
“This is the best possible outcome for surface shipbuilding in Australia,” Mr Abbott said.
Mr Abbott said the competitive evaluation of the submarine building bids from international companies did not mean Australian shipyards would miss out on work coming from the $50 billion submarine contract.
---------------------------
In regard's to the costs, Do we know if these are actual number's put forward by those in the know or number's cherry picked by a politician? Used to be 8 frigates built here for $10 billion, then a little while ago out of no where it became $20 billion. Abbott constantly saying Submarine's built in Australia would cost $50 billion or more, But TKMS and DCNS both have said they could build in Australia for $20 - $25 billion, and Japan abroad for $25 billion.. Which gives me the impression Abbott as quoting the build, operation and maintenance costs for the Aussie build but only mentioning the build costs for the Japanese build (Cherry picking numbers).
Hopefully more detail's are forthcoming over the next month or so..
I can understand a minister being proud of his state and they should always be actively working to create more job's but to make such a claim is stretching it by a long shot, A number of states and territories in Australia have been quite successful in defense projects such as CEA in Canberra with CEAFAR and Victoria with the Anzacs and Bushmasters..
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Actually you are completely wrong there.
It was reported around a month ago that the Naval Shipbuilding Plan was to be released 'before' the DWP, and this obviously what is happening.
weegee
Active Member
Sorry that's my fault then. I've been overseas for 7 weeks it seemed like some big news to me haha
d-ron84
Member
I can't see the F-125 having the inside running, to be the RAN's next asw frigates they kinda need a sonar.
But you may be right as it is a platform already in service somewhare in the world and we didn't do to bad building another meko ship
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