Is that a top secret weapon of mass destruction?Interesting, If we are really gonna take over her majesty's bloomers,......
Is that a top secret weapon of mass destruction?Interesting, If we are really gonna take over her majesty's bloomers,......
Remember the novel/movie "On the Beach"? You won't get hit but the fallout and nuclear winter will do you in, albeit more slowly.I don't think Prince Phillip would be too happy with us taking over Her Majesty's bloomers, nuclear submarine or no nuclear submarine...
There's probably also the fact that if the UK's leadership has been destroyed by a nuclear attack, there's probably not going to be all that much left of the USA (or Canada) either. Australia (and New Zealand), being a lot further away and less entrenched in NATO and the nuclear fight, would be far more likely to still be in one piece.
Better whether in Sydney/Fremantle than Scotland as well.
Haha. Must resist making crude remark..I don't think Prince Phillip would be too happy with us taking over Her Majesty's bloomers, nuclear submarine or no nuclear submarine...
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That and Australia actually had procedures and staff experience in handling UK nuclear weapons. Monte Bello, Emu field and Maralinga back in the 60's when these letters were first being written. Theres not a lot of countries you can rock up to with nuclear weapons and say "have these" and not create a very bad situation. I wonder if the RAN was deliberately stated ahead of the US. Back in the 60's it wouldn't surprise me if there was a regrouping plan post attack.Australia (and New Zealand), being a lot further away and less entrenched in NATO and the nuclear fight, would be far more likely to still be in one piece
When you see another article published like this one, you only have to scroll to the bottom of the page and look at the details of the author, it seems our friend Mr Rex Patrick is a mate of Senator Xenophon and indeed travelled with Xenophon's on his recent little 'junket' to Japan too!Yet another appeal in The Strategist against a "Captain's pick" Option J:
SEA 1000: the wrong way to boost strategic ties with Tokyo
The Shortfin Barracuda is starting to grow on me. If we can sort out the IP issues and the yanks allow the AN/BYG-1 to be installed in it, it could be the winning formula for RAN I reckon.
IMO Xenophon needed to go to japan. Apart from Abbott his is probably the only other person who has talked to anyone in Japan about a $20-$50 billion project. Looks like Rex went along as adviser to Xenophon. Which is what ASPI generally does, provide eggheads and techies for politicians.it seems our friend Mr Rex Patrick is a mate of Senator Xenophon and indeed travelled with Xenophon's on his recent little 'junket' to Japan too!
And?When you see another article published like this one, you only have to scroll to the bottom of the page and look at the details of the author, it seems our friend Mr Rex Patrick is a mate of Senator Xenophon and indeed travelled with Xenophon's on his recent little 'junket' to Japan too!
I wonder if the taxpayer (via Xenophon's expense account), paid for Mr Patrick's little holiday in Japan???
The people who publish at The Strategist (and the Lowy Interpreter) are not just in-house wonks. They solicit opinion pieces from all over the place. From academics, but also politicians, occasionally military people, defence industry and the defence associations. Just for reference...... Looks like Rex went along as adviser to Xenophon. Which is what ASPI generally does, provide eggheads and techies for politicians.
ASPI isn't a normal media outlet. Everything is published under creative commons as its a think tank that covers most sides of politics. It is in fact established by the Australian government and partly sponsored by the defense department.
Obviously we have differing opinions regarding Xenophon and his motivations and that's fair enough.IMO Xenophon needed to go to japan. Apart from Abbott his is probably the only other person who has talked to anyone in Japan about a $20-$50 billion project. Looks like Rex went along as adviser to Xenophon. Which is what ASPI generally does, provide eggheads and techies for politicians.
ASPI isn't a normal media outlet. Everything is published under creative commons as its a think tank that covers most sides of politics. It is in fact established by the Australian government and partly sponsored by the defense department.
Glad you brought this up Volk, i have been thinking it for a long time, anyone involved in the industry commenting here or anywhere else - have a vested interest somewhere, and often when people have vested interest often it is hard to be completely objective. Or their entire career has been spent in one industry, service or department and they have been conditioned to think a certain way.And?
I think you need to take your blinkers off John, the majority of professional commentators have links to particular interest's, even those who are saying things you agree with.
Seriously?And?
I think you need to take your blinkers off John, the majority of professional commentators have links to particular interest's, even those who are saying things you agree with.
Xenophon is a very clever and smart politician, but a politician all the same (like the rest of them), he's smart enough to pick the fights that are worth fighting for that will help his political views.Xenophon I don't think is the worst politician out there and has shown he can work with both teams and be pretty reasonable. IMO better than the Clive Palmers and the nutters that generally have control. Hes asking the questions that pretty much every south Australian liberal wants to ask. So I wouldn't say hes out of line.
Obviously being a south Australian senator, he has south Australia's priorities quite high on his list. Its not a secret.
A thinktank isn't an unbiased source of information like newspapers are supposed to be. A thinktank is typically funded by advocates for advocates. ASPI is one of the better ones, you have liberal and labor funded ones and ones run by nutters too, like Air Power Australia.
ASPI covers the spectrum, you can find peices for and against local construction by different groups/individuals.
I would love to know what options there are for local support or local build of japanese submarines. Are submarines the best way to tie Australia and japan together..
Interesting read and as discussed in other posts I'm no fan of Japans inclusion for the tender of SEA 1000.However I did like the suggestion of a smaller project with Japan.When you see another article published like this one, you only have to scroll to the bottom of the page and look at the details of the author, it seems our friend Mr Rex Patrick is a mate of Senator Xenophon and indeed travelled with Xenophon's on his recent little 'junket' to Japan too!
I wonder if the taxpayer (via Xenophon's expense account), paid for Mr Patrick's little holiday in Japan???
I missed this one.Putting aside the issue of 'if' Japanese shipyards have the fabrication and construction facilities (or space for additional facilities) to build submarines for Australia or not (and why everyone is stressing over this when NO decision has been made on what type or how they will be constructed is totally beyond me!!), but lets have a look at Techport and specifically the ASC facilities.
As I understand it, the facility/shed/building that was originally built on the Techport site for the construction of the Collins class, is now used for the sustainment of the Collins class and will no doubt be tied up with sustainment work on that fleet until at least the mid 2030's, is that a fair statement? Which will be well past the starting time for the first boat that will eventually replace Collins herself.
So why isn't it reasonable to believe that a 'new' fabrication and construction facility will have to be built on the Techport site for the Collins replacements?
Have a look at the Techport 'flythrough' video below:
Australia’s premier naval industry hub supporting The Australian Navy AWDs
At around the 2.00min mark you will see the 'future submarine assembly site' featured in the video (now is this just 'wishful' thinking on behalf of the SA Government and the Techport facility, or is it going to be necessary to build a 'new' and separate fabrication and construction facility?), I don't know.
But it seems reasonable that if the original shed is busy with sustainment work on the existing fleet, then having another shed for the fabrication and construction of the new fleet seems to be logical.
When you consider the many 10's of Billions of dollars that are going to be consumed by this project, the building of a new assembly shed or sheds (on the existing Techport site) is going to be rather small change in the big scheme of things.
The Germans actually hold Australian industry in very high regard and would have loved to have secure the original submarine project back in the 80s. The only people who don't think Australia can build world class submarines are people who believe the political spin used to justify sending the work off shore. From memory the Collins class actually experienced fewer problems that South Korea's or India's locally built German boats.ThyssenKrupp Says Australia Could Be Submarine Service Hub - WSJ
From export to Canada to "service hub" for Asia, how many lip-services TKMS is making now?
Seriously, consider S Korea is producing Type214 and exporting to Indonesia, it will be logical for the kimchi tigers to be the service hub. Singapore and Indian will surely service their own sub, I wonder how many "potential customer" are still available.
And, as long as china keep their aggression to their neighbors and our allies, I don't see how buying or not buying submarine from Japan will make any different: our submarine will be use against china anyway.
China respects strategic realism, not flattery
John, I don't believe anything Rex Patrick writes, he was a combat systems operator, not an engineer or boat driver, his speciality was acoustics, what a submarine does once it gets where its going, not how it gets there. His opinions are a mile off what those who actually know what RAN submarines need to be able to do think.Seriously?
Mate, I don't know what you problem is (and I don't particularly care either), but I certainly don't have 'blinkers on', in fact I'm more than open to seeing what anyone writes or says, doesn't meant that I have to be blind to the motivations of the author of that particular article. V, if you believe everything your read, well good on you, maybe you should get the blinkers off yourself.
My simple point was (and you will see what I wrote above in my reply to SingrayOZ), that whenever an article is written by anyone, 'for or against', you need to look at the motivation of the person that wrote that article, simple as that, if you are trying read something else into my comments, then go for your life!
Here's a couple of links to older articles written that contain the comments of Mr Rex Patrick:
Keeping Collins afloat ludicrous: expert
And:
Expert slams flawed submarines report
It appears to me that Mr Patrick has regularly put himself up as an 'expert' in submarine matters in the past (shades of Airpower Australia perhaps??). He has previously suggested that Collins is a waste of money and apart from that, they should in fact be replaced with smaller European 'off the shelf' submarines too.
So knowing that, why wouldn't I be surprised that he would be critical of the so called 'Option J'.
What I find a joke is that in the past he was quoted as saying that he, "fears the push for another Australian-designed and built submarine program puts job creation for South Australia ahead of national security" and now that he has teamed up with Xenophon he appears to be "all for construction in Australia, South Australia in particular".
Seriously! They guy appears to be a tree blowing in the wind, one minute Collins is crap and replace them with smaller European MOTS submarines and now he's anti the so called "option J", what will his next opinion piece be? Maybe build American SSN's here instead??
Not necessarily, While producing the vessel's and having a mild export success S Korea is also in the position Australia used to be in and that is being at the end of the supply line while Australia on the other hand for all it's faults is in a prime position for work both in the Pacific and Indian oceans.ThyssenKrupp Says Australia Could Be Submarine Service Hub - WSJ
From export to Canada to "service hub" for Asia, how many lip-services TKMS is making now?
Seriously, consider S Korea is producing Type214 and exporting to Indonesia, it will be logical for the kimchi tigers to be the service hub. Singapore and Indian will surely service their own sub, I wonder how many "potential customer" are still available.
And, as long as china keep their aggression to their neighbors and our allies, I don't see how buying or not buying submarine from Japan will make any different: our submarine will be use against china anyway.
China respects strategic realism, not flattery