Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[kiwi in exile]

Having said that is 20mm still effective in its primary role as CIWS?

There is a thread on this forum about CIWS applications. Im not an expert but in my POV short answer is no. The US and other navies are moving away from 20mm vulcan based CWIS and towards RAM. The arguements I have heard are that 20mm has a shorter range and only has a very short time to react to supersonic antiship missiles. The rounds may impact the projectile merely a few hundred meters from the ship, and therefore the ship may still be at risk of damage. Larger calibre and missile based CIWS systems have better range, and therefore (theoretically at least) the ship has a larger safe zone. Remember CIWS is seen as the last layer of defence in a layered defence system.

Phalanx CIWS have recently been used as ground based CRAM (Counter rocket, artilery, mortar) in the ME. Maybe in future NZDF could try mounting one on a truck.

 

[40 deg south]

If nothing else, the scenarios in the RFP have generated some interesting discussion. Hope the original author was rewarded with a nice cup of defence-issue tea.

Looking back into GETS, there have been two updates to the original Tender Request. They are both clarifying various aspects of the requirement for the LOSC. Not sure if this is indicative of the original document being inadequate, or whether Defence now routinely posts on GETS responses that would previously have gone direct to the potential bidder asking the questions.

First Update
- Clarifies diving will be 'wet bell' at ambient pressure, not hyperbaric.
- Clarifies number of potential divers (up to 20)
- Clarifies amounts/type of diving gasses required
- Confirms recompression chamber fits in standard ISO 20ft container
- Provides some info on possible containerised units to be provided by Defence Tehnology Agency.
- Confirms that underwater Remotely Operated Vehicle specifications not yet developed
- Clarifies helicopter refuelling system
- Confirms LOSC should be able to embark both fixed-wing and rotary UAVs but not both at same time, (they use Remotely Piloted Air Systems as the preferred acronym). Scan Eagle and Schiebel S100 Camcopter are given as indicative systems for dimensions. Mentions UAVs are a future capability for NZ, and not likely to be in service when ship commissioned.
- Reveals 'Littoral Manoeuver Craft' mentioned in RFP are an intended future capability. Max dimensions at 11m length by 3m beam, max. displacement 6 tonnes. Essentially a big RHIB, I assume?
- Clarifies accommodation must be flexible
- Outlines classification of munitions to be carried. Must be able to accommodate minimum of 130 M458 ammunition containers
- No requirement for the LOSC to have a Tactical Data Link
- Max loads for crane are ISO 20 ft container filled with concrete from shallow water, or NH90 from 100m depth.
- Ice 1C classification NOT required
- Crew accommodation and food storage requirements detailed.

Second Update
A much shorter list here.
- Carification of RHIB + Zodiac numbers
- Core crew 64, embarked forces 56
- More details on production of diving air from n-board compressors
- Clarification of different requirements for low-speed/stationary operations
- Provides link to ASNZ standard for diving operations.

 

[40 deg south]

Info on the S100 Camcopter here.

https://www.schiebel.net/Products/Unmanned-Air-Systems/CAMCOPTER-S-100/System.aspx
Manufacturers site

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ert70O6gOZQ
Demonstrating system to Tranzpower in Auckland for line inspection

https://www.schiebel.net/File.aspx?Id=2410&Path=~/Press-Area/Press-Releases&Name=PdfArticle
Demonstraton for RAN earlier this year.

 

[40 deg south]

Australian Navy receives new vessel to boost submarine SAR capability - Naval Technology

Wasn't Damen one of the companies that responded to the RFI for the LOSC?

The article above advises that they have delivered an 83m submarine rescue gear ship to Serco who is contracted to the RAN. A larger 93m ship under construction for the same client.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.824937257521127.1073742004.496345163713673&type=3

Both built in Damen's Vietnam yard.

Given these vessels will be fitted with good sonar, be able to operate an ROV and support diving, I'd say it is a fair bet that something from the same family will be submitted by Damen for the LOSC vessel.

 

[RegR]

If nothing else, the scenarios in the RFP have generated some interesting discussion. Hope the original author was rewarded with a nice cup of defence-issue tea.

Looking back into GETS, there have been two updates to the original Tender Request. They are both clarifying various aspects of the requirement for the LOSC. Not sure if this is indicative of the original document being inadequate, or whether Defence now routinely posts on GETS responses that would previously have gone direct to the potential bidder asking the questions.

First Update
- Clarifies diving will be 'wet bell' at ambient pressure, not hyperbaric.
- Clarifies number of potential divers (up to 20)
- Clarifies amounts/type of diving gasses required
- Confirms recompression chamber fits in standard ISO 20ft container
- Provides some info on possible containerised units to be provided by Defence Tehnology Agency.
- Confirms that underwater Remotely Operated Vehicle specifications not yet developed
- Clarifies helicopter refuelling system
- Confirms LOSC should be able to embark both fixed-wing and rotary UAVs but not both at same time, (they use Remotely Piloted Air Systems as the preferred acronym). Scan Eagle and Schiebel S100 Camcopter are given as indicative systems for dimensions. Mentions UAVs are a future capability for NZ, and not likely to be in service when ship commissioned.
- Reveals 'Littoral Manoeuver Craft' mentioned in RFP are an intended future capability. Max dimensions at 11m length by 3m beam, max. displacement 6 tonnes. Essentially a big RHIB, I assume?
- Clarifies accommodation must be flexible
- Outlines classification of munitions to be carried. Must be able to accommodate minimum of 130 M458 ammunition containers
- No requirement for the LOSC to have a Tactical Data Link
- Max loads for crane are ISO 20 ft container filled with concrete from shallow water, or NH90 from 100m depth.
- Ice 1C classification NOT required
- Crew accommodation and food storage requirements detailed.

Second Update
A much shorter list here.
- Carification of RHIB + Zodiac numbers
- Core crew 64, embarked forces 56
- More details on production of diving air from n-board compressors
- Clarification of different requirements for low-speed/stationary operations
- Provides link to ASNZ standard for diving operations.

Reference the embarked craft reso already carried the SMB Adventure that was craned on and off (unless it went with reso to it's new owner) so sounds like it is just continuing the practice and confirming its replacement when the time comes. A littoral for the littoral.

 

[40 deg south]

Logistic Support Vessel Supporter 19000

Apologies for monopolising the thread, but saw this page of replenishment ships on the Damen website. Haven't seen it before - not sure if it is new? Another scaleable family of AOR/supply ships, a bit like the BMT Aegir. Unfortunately, website doen't give fuel/dry goods capacity of each version.

 

[Mercator]

Apologies for monopolising the thread, but saw this page of replenishment ships on the Damen website...

Don't apologise mate, that's a very good find, and speaking for myself I appreciate your posts a great deal (both here and elsewhere).

On the vessel itself: what I find interesting is the combination of lane metres of RO/RO space and fuel cargo. I have not seen that before on such a relatively small vessel (the combination tanker/transport) and I always assumed that there were class rules against combining these different types of cargos. So it's new to me and seemingly a very welcome development. In an Australian context, it could be a useful submarine or patrol boat tender, or a modest logistics support vessel for follow-on amphibious operations. Both of which are in demand, I reckon. NZ would be primarily interested in the latter, of course.

 

[Zero Alpha]

Logistic Support Vessel Supporter 19000

Apologies for monopolising the thread, but saw this page of replenishment ships on the Damen website. Haven't seen it before - not sure if it is new? Another scaleable family of AOR/supply ships, a bit like the BMT Aegir. Unfortunately, website doen't give fuel/dry goods capacity of each version.

Interesting that the Damen designs are closer to the original capability study than the study facilitated for MoD by BMT.

The pricing I've seen from Damen suggests the only way they'd be competitive on price is if they used their Vietnam yard. The BMT design is arguably lower risk, but the Damen looks to me like it has more potential. It will be an interesting contest.

 

[swerve]

Don't apologise mate, that's a very good find, and speaking for myself I appreciate your posts a great deal (both here and elsewhere).

On the vessel itself: what I find interesting is the combination of lane metres of RO/RO space and fuel cargo. I have not seen that before on such a relatively small vessel (the combination tanker/transport) and I always assumed that there were class rules against combining these different types of cargos. So it's new to me and seemingly a very welcome development. In an Australian context, it could be a useful submarine or patrol boat tender, or a modest logistics support vessel for follow-on amphibious operations. Both of which are in demand, I reckon. NZ would be primarily interested in the latter, of course.

Agree with your first para. Interesting ship & welcome post.

Damen's built one ship with a mixture of fuel cargo & RORO space - the Dutch navy's new JSS, Karel Doorman. This ship seems to be conceptually similar.

 

[40 deg south]

Interesting that the Damen designs are closer to the original capability study than the study facilitated for MoD by BMT.

The pricing I've seen from Damen suggests the only way they'd be competitive on price is if they used their Vietnam yard. The BMT design is arguably lower risk, but the Damen looks to me like it has more potential. It will be an interesting contest.

The BMT design will definitely be safer, as long as DSME is the manufactuer. They will have already built four large variants of the UK MARS programme and one small one for the Norwegians before they look at one for NZ.

As far as I know Damen hasn't had an order yet, but they do a have a very strong record in managing offshore builds. Presumably Vietnam would be the yard chosen, although until now it has mainly produced smaller vessels.

Has anyone found a more detailed source on the Damen AOR range that includes the capacity of each variant?

 

[Alf662]

The BMT design will definitely be safer, as long as DSME is the manufactuer. They will have already built four large variants of the UK MARS programme and one small one for the Norwegians before they look at one for NZ.

As far as I know Damen hasn't had an order yet, but they do a have a very strong record in managing offshore builds. Presumably Vietnam would be the yard chosen, although until now it has mainly produced smaller vessels.

Has anyone found a more detailed source on the Damen AOR range that includes the capacity of each variant?

Scroll down to the "Downloads" section and you can down load a brochure on it (sorry I cannot post the link).

TRANSPORT CAPACITY
Flight deck 1 x spots medium size helicopter, Suitable for heavy helicopter landing
Hangar 2 x medium size helicopter
Ship-to-Shore transfer Sea state 3-4
Davits 2 x LCM in davit (option)
Flight deck 675 m²
RoRo space 500 lane meters
Container cap. 40 TEU
F76 (Cargo) 4500 t
F44 (Cargo) 425 t
Ship Stores 330 m2
Cargo Stores 520 m²
Ammo Stores 260 m2

Have a close look at the graphics, it shows four CB90's inboard of the LCM's.

 

[Gibbo]

If nothing else, the scenarios in the RFP have generated some interesting discussion. Hope the original author was rewarded with a nice cup of defence-issue tea.

Looking back into GETS, there have been two updates to the original Tender Request. They are both clarifying various aspects of the requirement for the LOSC. Not sure if this is indicative of the original document being inadequate, or whether Defence now routinely posts on GETS responses that would previously have gone direct to the potential bidder asking the questions.

...
- Outlines classification of munitions to be carried. Must be able to accommodate minimum of 130 M458 ammunition containers
...

Can we make any assumptions as to likely weapons fit from this?

 

[Gibbo]

Reference the embarked craft reso already carried the SMB Adventure that was craned on and off (unless it went with reso to it's new owner) so sounds like it is just continuing the practice and confirming its replacement when the time comes. A littoral for the littoral.

Thinking it's more likely to be Takapau & Tarapunga as per this link:
RNZN - Capability & Role

 

[Zero Alpha]

The BMT design will definitely be safer, as long as DSME is the manufactuer. They will have already built four large variants of the UK MARS programme and one small one for the Norwegians before they look at one for NZ.

We don't know the pedigree of the Damen design. If hull form, machinery, electrical etc are re-purposed from existing designs, then potentially there is little difference in the risk profile.

Commercially there are some interesting synergies between projects. Damen and BMT could potentially win the tanker/the LOSC and the third OPV as part of a package. Two of those designs could have a very high degree of commonality.

 

[swerve]

The BMT design will definitely be safer, as long as DSME is the manufactuer. They will have already built four large variants of the UK MARS programme and one small one for the Norwegians before they look at one for NZ.

As far as I know Damen hasn't had an order yet, but they do a have a very strong record in managing offshore builds. Presumably Vietnam would be the yard chosen, although until now it has mainly produced smaller vessels.

Has anyone found a more detailed source on the Damen AOR range that includes the capacity of each variant?

Damen gives details on its website.

Damen (or Schelde, one of the firms that came together into it) built the RNLN's llast replenishment ship, Amsterdam, now in service with the Peruvian navy, as well as Karel Doorman & the RNLNs two LPDs, Rotterdam & Johann de Witt. There seems to be an emphasis on evolutionary design, re-using what works, so I wouldn't be surprised if the new design incorporates a lot from its predecessors.

 

[RegR]

Thinking it's more likely to be Takapau & Tarapunga as per this link:
RNZN - Capability & Role

Essentially serve the same purpose except Adventure is bigger and cannot fit in a C130. Guess it all depends on what hat the littoral will be wearing at the time and what task they want to complete.

 

[Bluey 006]

Info on the S100 Camcopter here.

https://www.schiebel.net/Products/Unmanned-Air-Systems/CAMCOPTER-S-100/System.aspx
Manufacturers site

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ert70O6gOZQ
Demonstrating system to Tranzpower in Auckland for line inspection

https://www.schiebel.net/File.aspx?Id=2410&Path=~/Press-Area/Press-Releases&Name=PdfArticle
Demonstraton for RAN earlier this year.

S100 Camcopter would be a very useful affordable capability for NZDF,at sea and on land. Especially if one can be carried in addition to a manned helicopter. The S100 has undergone testing with the Lightweight Multirole Missile (LMM), meaning it could engage those two boats at extended ranges in the Littoral Operations Support Ship scenarios in the tender, even if a manned helicopter was not on board. That said IMHO this vessel does need a main gun.

A small nation like NZ really needs to embrace UAVs and quickly. Procurement,sustainment and training costs are considerably cheaper.

 

[RegR]

Logistic Support Vessel Supporter 19000

Apologies for monopolising the thread, but saw this page of replenishment ships on the Damen website. Haven't seen it before - not sure if it is new? Another scaleable family of AOR/supply ships, a bit like the BMT Aegir. Unfortunately, website doen't give fuel/dry goods capacity of each version.

Good looking ship, as Alf pointed out all the relevant info is in the downloads section but can't remember the NZ requirements to compare (Ngati help?). Seems like a very capable vessel that encompasses what govt was originally looking at ie more multi-purpose rather than solely tanker so I guess it all comes down to cost vs options vs envisaged 'roles' but between this and the aegir version I'm sure navy can select a good future END to take the RNZN, and NZDF, forward.

Surely we are still at least considering options with Aus (or maybe even Canada?) to leverage a combined package? Even if it is for a scaled version (if they are going too large) of the same family as surely savings could be made for both parties (or all, RCN) in having the same/similar systems, equipment, development and even yard etc.

 

[John Fedup]

Good looking ship, as Alf pointed out all the relevant info is in the downloads section but can't remember the NZ requirements to compare (Ngati help?). Seems like a very capable vessel that encompasses what govt was originally looking at ie more multi-purpose rather than solely tanker so I guess it all comes down to cost vs options vs envisaged 'roles' but between this and the aegir version I'm sure navy can select a good future END to take the RNZN, and NZDF, forward.

Surely we are still at least considering options with Aus (or maybe even Canada?) to leverage as combined package? Even if it is for a scaled version (if they are going too large) of the same family as surely savings could be made for both parties (or all, RCN) in having the same/similar systems, equipment, development and even yard etc.

The RCN will have 2 Berlin Class AORs and they are to be built by SeaSpan in Vancouver, BC. I would think NZ will be better off packaging with Australia rather than Canada assuming the two countries could agree on a suitable design.

 

[ASSAIL]

There's been much hand wringing about the NH 90/MRH 90 over the last months but it seems that the Flight in HMAS Choules did very well during TS 2015.

I only hope that this trend continues over time with the entire fleet because neither ANZs need a rotary fiasco for such a critical capability.

MRH90 proving indispensable | Navy Daily