South China Sea News & Discussions, incl Spratly Islands News

[Beatmaster]

Just wondering but what would be a diplomatic / economical / strategic solution to the nations who have a claim on the disputed islands?
Is there "internationally" a way where everyone could lay down their claims but in some sort of construction benefit from those islands?

As others pointed out the status quo has sort of being guaranteed by major forces like China and US.
So as pointed out the major powers are not interested in a possible road map to a armed conflict (And obviously the smaller powers have even less intent to go that way) unless there is a major balance shift or some sort of inexcusable provocation that might force or justify military action (In whatever form that might be)

That being said those claims are still there and diplomatic tensions are more or less jumping up and down, so to get back to my first question here is there some sort of "construction" where all sides could be content with, and has such a construction ever been attempted in for example other disputed around the globe? (if ever)

Because imo rather then disputing the islands internationally there might be ways where both sides can drop the claims and build up some sort of agreement or economic construction which would in theory boost the "owner" nation and the claim making nations which would imo be a victory in itself and would possible bring a lot of stability to the region.
And this way all sides do not have to lose their international face.

Just for the record some of these islands are considered a possible wealth of minerals/gas/oil which a energy hungry nation like China would need, on the flip side tho lets assume that there is oil/gas (Or whatever great resource) the Philippines could do with a few Chinese billions and some technology to crank up its economy.

So hence why i suggested if there could be some sort of mutual agreement where all sides could smile. And this would take away a heap of pressure to the US forces in the region giving them the ability to strengthen their positions where needed and to strengthen economic and strategic ties with nations in Asia.

 

[Todjaeger]

Just wondering but what would be a diplomatic / economical / strategic solution to the nations who have a claim on the disputed islands?
Is there "internationally" a way where everyone could lay down their claims but in some sort of construction benefit from those islands?

As others pointed out the status quo has sort of being guaranteed by major forces like China and US.
So as pointed out the major powers are not interested in a possible road map to a armed conflict (And obviously the smaller powers have even less intent to go that way) unless there is a major balance shift or some sort of inexcusable provocation that might force or justify military action (In whatever form that might be)

That being said those claims are still there and diplomatic tensions are more or less jumping up and down, so to get back to my first question here is there some sort of "construction" where all sides could be content with, and has such a construction ever been attempted in for example other disputed around the globe? (if ever)

Because imo rather then disputing the islands internationally there might be ways where both sides can drop the claims and build up some sort of agreement or economic construction which would in theory boost the "owner" nation and the claim making nations which would imo be a victory in itself and would possible bring a lot of stability to the region.
And this way all sides do not have to lose their international face.

Just for the record some of these islands are considered a possible wealth of minerals/gas/oil which a energy hungry nation like China would need, on the flip side tho lets assume that there is oil/gas (Or whatever great resource) the Philippines could do with a few Chinese billions and some technology to crank up its economy.

So hence why i suggested if there could be some sort of mutual agreement where all sides could smile. And this would take away a heap of pressure to the US forces in the region giving them the ability to strengthen their positions where needed and to strengthen economic and strategic ties with nations in Asia.

The issue is complex, with something like six different nations having competing claims depending on which particular set of islands/reefs one is talking about.

With that many claimants (one of which is the PRC) then a simple division of the claimed areas is no longer so simple. Also the primary interest is not in the islands themselves, as they are essentially uninhabited, but with the EEZ claims and right to exploit same based off land claims.

As for the notion of getting all sides to 'smile' not likely since a country would be unlikely to consider a 16.67% claim an improvement over the potential for a much greater precentage. Especially since the different claimants would likely still need to invest a considerable amount of resources in patrolling their claims to ensure no infringement by other claimants.

 

[Sampanviking]

Just wondering but what would be a diplomatic / economical / strategic solution to the nations who have a claim on the disputed islands?
Is there "internationally" a way where everyone could lay down their claims but in some sort of construction benefit from those islands?

As others pointed out the status quo has sort of being guaranteed by major forces like China and US.
So as pointed out the major powers are not interested in a possible road map to a armed conflict (And obviously the smaller powers have even less intent to go that way) unless there is a major balance shift or some sort of inexcusable provocation that might force or justify military action (In whatever form that might be)

That being said those claims are still there and diplomatic tensions are more or less jumping up and down, so to get back to my first question here is there some sort of "construction" where all sides could be content with, and has such a construction ever been attempted in for example other disputed around the globe? (if ever)

Because imo rather then disputing the islands internationally there might be ways where both sides can drop the claims and build up some sort of agreement or economic construction which would in theory boost the "owner" nation and the claim making nations which would imo be a victory in itself and would possible bring a lot of stability to the region.
And this way all sides do not have to lose their international face.

Just for the record some of these islands are considered a possible wealth of minerals/gas/oil which a energy hungry nation like China would need, on the flip side tho lets assume that there is oil/gas (Or whatever great resource) the Philippines could do with a few Chinese billions and some technology to crank up its economy.

So hence why i suggested if there could be some sort of mutual agreement where all sides could smile. And this would take away a heap of pressure to the US forces in the region giving them the ability to strengthen their positions where needed and to strengthen economic and strategic ties with nations in Asia.

Yes there is, but it will no doubt be completely removed from the remit of this forum to discuss. It all revolves around the reality of the nature of relations between powers and especially great powers.

A good place to start would be to research the nature of the classical Chinese system of Suzerainty, as this is the historic diplomatic glue that has underpinned this region for most of at least the previous thousand years.

 

[swerve]

A good place to start would be to research the nature of the classical Chinese system of Suzerainty, as this is the historic diplomatic glue that has underpinned this region for most of at least the previous thousand years.

The current generation of Chinese seems to need an education in it. They're confusing it with sovereignty in the Western sense, & laying claim to territories which may have been under Chinese suzerainty, but were never part of any Chinese state in a sense which would be recognised now.

 

[Todjaeger]

Thanks for that and yes i see what you mean, but i think you misunderstood what i did mean with making every side smile.
Let me clarify:
What i was suggesting is that the "owner" of the islands remains in total control and ownership, BUT due some sort of agreement gives access to its resources and thus a economic or industrial bonus to both.
Now for example China's resource harvesting technological industry is way better developed then their counter parts in the Philippines and way better funded.
So china needs resources and by giving them economic access to the resources the industrial and economic development in the Philippines will probably get a major boost and perhaps some new knowledge to refine and improve their current industrial base which in turn enables them to harvest other resources on their own home soil.
This way hypothetically speaking every side could be happy, perhaps its wishful thinking on my side but i think that the idea holds some merit.

We are getting somewhat OT from foreign basing in the Philippines.

Having said that, you still do not seem to understand the claims problems. Several different countries have competing claims to islands and/or EEZ areas in the South China Sea and East China Sea. Some of the claims in the SCS being a particular problem since there are so many competing claims.

The notion that the "owner" of the islands engages in co-development or co-exploitation of the islands resources with those better able to do so, completely ignores the fact that in some cases, there are a half-dozen countries claiming ownership.

Some of the competing claims (like Taiwan & Philippine EEZ/fishing areas) could be comparatively easy to resolve since there are only two claimants, allowing a bilateral agreement.

Until it is established what claims are valid then those who wish to exploit the resources of the area either have to wait to make sure their claims are legitimate, or begin operations with the risk of loss, damage from or attack by rival claimants with the added potential for a ruling or agreement which nullifies any right to resources.

 

[Filipinas]

Tensions have risen again over the SCS area last week due the recent deployment of a giant oil rig by China off Vietnam's coast resulting in multiple vessel collisions during a standoff and the arrest of 11 Chinese fishermen off the coast of Palawan by the Philippines maritime police .

 

[cottontree]

ASEAN should join forces!!!

NEVER let China build oil rigs around SCS.

Once China build oil rigs around south china sea, it will be difficult to chase them away.

ASEAN should join forces just like the european countries or will get bullied by China!!!

 

[Filipinas]

NEVER let China build oil rigs around SCS.

Once China build oil rigs around south china sea, it will be difficult to chase them away.

ASEAN should join forces just like the european countries or will get bullied by China!!!

Yes your right, once they get a hold and control of a certain area in the SCS they will never surrender or let go of it ever even if it's near the coastline of another country . One example is the annexation of Scarborough Shoal from the Philippines which is only 140 miles off the coast of Luzon island but is more than 600 miles from from the nearest coast of China.

 

[cottontree]

Yes your right, once they get a hold and control of a certain area in the SCS they will never surrender or let go of it ever even if it's near the coastline of another country . One example is the annexation of Scarborough Shoal from the Philippines which is only 140 miles off the coast of Luzon island but is more than 600 miles from from the nearest coast of China.

Well, if they already took scarborough shoal, it is only a matter of time that China will go even deeper into the ASEAN waters.

BTW, when is Philippine FA50 fighters be ready? you need to at least intimidate the Chinese vessels around that area.

 

[Filipinas]

Well, if they already took scarborough shoal, it is only a matter of time that China will go even deeper into the ASEAN waters.

BTW, when is Philippine FA50 fighters be ready? you need to at least intimidate the Chinese vessels around that area.

Absolutely, unless the Philippines starts showing it's flag again around that area by sending at least some coast guard vessels then considered it permanently lost to China. The FA-50 fighter jets are not due to arrive until late next year and into 2016 but it's air force still have some of the S-211's which can conduct maritime patrol but will not be able to intimidate any chinese vessels in the Scarborough Shoal area .

 

[STURM]

BTW, when is Philippine FA50 fighters be ready? you need to at least intimidate the Chinese vessels around that area.

The decision to order T-50s is long overdue and will better enable the PAF to monitor its airspace but to suggest that these aircaft will 'intimidate' the Chinese is to engage in wishful thinking. It can also be argued that if PAF T-50s start buzzing Chinese vessels, the Chinese will get more annoyed and may up the ante.

 

[LogisticsGuy]

Vietnam anti-China Riots

Over 3000 Chinese Evacuated (By Boat & Plane) As Vietnam's Anti-China Riots Escalate; Taiwan Also On "High Alert"


China began evacuating hundreds of its nationals from Vietnam (via at least 2 planes and 5 ships) as the anti-China protests have become increasingly deadly following Beijing's attempt to deploy an oil drill in Vietnamese dispuited waters (detailed here, here, here, and here)...
• *CHINA SENDING 5 SHIPS TO VIETNAM TO EVACUATE CHINESE: XINHUA
• *HUNDREDS OF VIETNAMESE SECURITY IN CENTRAL HO CHI MINH CITY
• *VIETNAM PRIME MINISTER ISSUES DIRECTIVE TO PREVENT PROTESTS
• *VIETNAM GOVT TAKES ACTION TO PREVENT RIOTS: BINH
Hundreds of police and security forces are in central Ho Chi Minh city and the Chinese consulate is under heavy guard. Tensions across the ASEAN region are growing as Taiwan is on "high alert" but the bloc’s inability to craft a united response to Chinese aggression signals a further decline in its regional clout.

*Over 3000 Chinese Evacuated (By Boat & Plane) As Vietnam's Anti-China Riots Escalate; Taiwan Also On "High Alert" | Zero Hedge

 

[Jeneral2885]

If China keeps pushing I am sure they will see the formation of an expanded defence pact in the region before too long. SEATO could be revived and expanded.

SEATO is long gone and dead. The US does more bilateral partnerships nowadays in SEA or the Great Asia-Pacific.

 

[colay]

No one is claiming this exercise in any way influences the balance,of power one iota. Which is why I called it a PR gimmick. It served it's purpose by demonstrating that peaceful means to address,differences and coexist is possible, in stark contrast to Beijing's bullying.

 

[FormerDirtDart]

"Proposes" & "considering" does not equal the definitive statement: "US to directly challenge China over islands"
Way to lay on the hyperbole

 

[gazzzwp]

But the US just can't stand by and let itself and it's allies get bullied and dictated to by what is undeniably a weaker military force. Bullying is bullying; the issue may be dressed up as a US versus China spat but in fact it is already affecting the economy of the Philippines and no doubt other adjacent nations who rely on those waters for trade and fishing.

This issue has to be solved diplomatically and quickly; otherwise I predict the hand justice will come down and China will suffer huge set backs in it's push for imperial expansion.:flash

 

[gazzzwp]

I think everyone is re-evaluating everything.


Several countries have reconsidered their relationship with the US.

Can you elaborate on this? I assume you mean in terms of strengthening alliances?

Also today there is this:

China warns US war is 'INEVITABLE' unless rival superpower halts meddling | World | News | Daily Express

China more or less saying that they would accept war with the US over the SCS issue.

 

[gazzzwp]

Thumbs up for the assessment there Mr G. Now it's a matter of waiting and watching.

 

[gazzzwp]

The dominant media perception on the SCS issue seems to be that it is a US versus China struggle for power.

I don't see it that way.

I see it as China laying claim to a huge swathe of ocean that is naturally shared among many states and forcing the weaker of those states to acquiesce.

If China simply wanted the US out of the region it could have negotiated with the other interested players and mutually agreed boundaries.

It did not do that but instead pursued a might is right policy. This is about depriving military weaker players of territory. China is simply using the US's role as major protectorate to justify it's terrible actions.

 

[gazzzwp]

US expresses determination to support it's allies in the region and that it will continue to fly and sail as it always has in these international waters.

The war of words is escalating.

China, U.S. in war of words over disputed islands - CNNPolitics.com