Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Bluey 006

Active Member
Just read Cameron Stewart's article in the Weekend Australian today (sorry can't post it) reporting that the RAN has "been stymied over an audacious bid to obtain the most potent ships in the nations history"
Capable of launching 100 missiles, 96 cell VLS, between 6,000 and 8,000 tonnes.

Where does this come from and have we been missing something? Alternatively, is he just being a sensationalist d..ck?
Can't read the article, but Is he talking about the AWD? 96 Cells?

Perhaps he is suggesting 16 cells 4 "quad packed" ESSM = 64 Missiles
32 cells - SM2,SM6, Tomahawk etc + 2 x 4-canister Harpoon = 40 Missiles

or is it something re the Arleigh Burke-class destroyer?
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
Can't read the article, but Is he talking about the AWD? 96 Cells?

Perhaps he is suggesting 16 cells 4 "quad packed" ESSM = 64 Missiles
32 cells - SM2,SM6, Tomahawk etc + 2 x 4-canister Harpoon = 40 Missiles

or is it something re the Arleigh Burke-class destroyer?

Apparently it is based upon an RAN request for capability in the ANZAC Frigate replacements - if the report is to be believed.
According to it a large ship 7000-8000 tonnes and carrying more armament than the AWD's was proposed. It also suggests that RAN asked for a one to one replacement of the Anzac's
MB
 

Bluey 006

Active Member
Apparently it is based upon an RAN request for capability in the ANZAC Frigate replacements - if the report is to be believed.
According to it a large ship 7000-8000 tonnes and carrying more armament than the AWD's was proposed. It also suggests that RAN asked for a one to one replacement of the Anzac's
MB
Thanks!
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Just read Cameron Stewart's article in the Weekend Australian today (sorry can't post it) reporting that the RAN has "been stymied over an audacious bid to obtain the most potent ships in the nations history"
Capable of launching 100 missiles, 96 cell VLS, between 6,000 and 8,000 tonnes.

Where does this come from and have we been missing something? Alternatively, is he just being a sensationalist d..ck? or.... does he have some inside channel to Dennis Richardson from being an ex spook?
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

Navy’s operational requirements document for the new *frigates, presented to Defence Department secretary Dennis Richardson late last month, called for a far more potent and ambitious warship than either the department or the government was expecting.

The Weekend Australian understands the navy wants its new frigates to be rigged with vertical-launch systems capable of firing 96 missiles, including Tomahawk cruise missiles, double the firepower of the new AWDs, which have 48 missile launchers. Navy also wants the new boats to be *between 6000 and 8000 tonnes, dwarfing the current 3000-tonne Anzacs, the 4000-tonne Adelaide-class frigates and potentially even the 7000-tonne AWDs.
F100 base frigates might be able to meet this. Isn't the F-100 able to be upgraded to 64 cells (or more?). Or they are asking for burkes.

http://www.cea.com.au/News+Media/Attachments/2014-0007.pdf

If we went with Seaceptor and found additional space for them, this would free up the regular VLS.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
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F100 base frigates might be able to meet this. Isn't the F-100 able to be upgraded to 64 cells (or more?). Or they are asking for burkes.

http://www.cea.com.au/News+Media/Attachments/2014-0007.pdf

If we went with Seaceptor and found additional space for them, this would free up the regular VLS.
The requested ship almost sounds like a 'Baby Bourke'!

If I remember correctly the Baby Bourke was supposed to be a bit over 7000t and equipped with a 64 cell Mk 41 VLS.

I know the Government is looking at the possibility of using the F-105 hull as the basis for the Future Frigate, but I also wonder if the Baby Bourke design (without AEGIS and SPY), could in fact be modified to fulfil the Future Frigate role? Doubt it will ever happen anyway.

Probably down to either a modified F-105 hull or the UK T-26.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Sounds ike a Sejong the great class fron South Korea, one way of looking it is if we are only ever going to have a small navy make it as combat ready as it can be with less returning back for war stores.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
According to the report, RAN was supposedly told that they were dreaming , and to go back and sharpen their pencils, and ask for something less costly.
MB
 

blueorchid

Member
According to the report, RAN was supposedly told that they were dreaming , and to go back and sharpen their pencils, and ask for something less costly.
MB
Rebuff for navy on super warships




Cameron Stewart



Associate Editor
Melbourne




HMAS Success conducts a dual replenishment at sea with HMAS Anzac and HMNZS Te Kaha as the ships transit the Mediterranean Sea. Source: Supplied







The navy has been stymied over an audacious bid to obtain the most potent warships in the *nation’s history, capable of launching almost 100 missiles, *because they are too costly.

Navy chiefs have been *ordered to scale down their demands that the planned future frigates be a fleet of super warships twice as large and with twice the firepower as the navy’s current Anzac frigates. Navy has been told that its proposed new warships would be too expensive in this era of fiscal restraint and its wishlist pared back despite the growing strategic challenge posed by China’s fast-growing navy.
The argument within Defence over the new frigates comes as planners struggle to juggle budget constraints against strategic priorities before the new defence white paper due for release in *October. The white paper will detail the plans for a new fleet of frigates to replace the existing eight Anzac-class frigates, the last of which was built in 2006, and four Adelaide-class frigates from the mid-2020s. These boats will form the heart of the future navy alongside the three new Air Warfare Destroyers, now being built in Adelaide, and up to 12 new planned submarines.
Navy’s operational requirements document for the new *frigates, presented to Defence Department secretary Dennis Richardson late last month, called for a far more potent and ambitious warship than either the department or the government was expecting.
The Weekend Australian understands the navy wants its new frigates to be rigged with vertical-launch systems capable of firing 96 missiles, including Tomahawk cruise missiles, double the firepower of the new AWDs, which have 48 missile launchers. Navy also wants the new boats to be *between 6000 and 8000 tonnes, dwarfing the current 3000-tonne Anzacs, the 4000-tonne Adelaide-class frigates and potentially even the 7000-tonne AWDs.
It calls for the new frigates to be able to operate as a part of a ballistic missile defence system with a futuristic anti-submarine capability and two hangars to store helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles.
Navy argues that such a capability is needed to meet the strategic challenge posed by China’s growing navy and says it is consistent with global trends to have larger and more capable frigates.
Navy wants a one-for-one *replacement of the current frigate fleet which would, in effect, *deliver a quantum increase in capability. It is understood Mr Richardson rejected navy’s proposal as being too extravagant and costly. He is believed to have instructed navy chiefs to look at smaller, more affordable ships and come back with a more *realistic proposal.
Mr Richardson yesterday declined to comment but a Defence source said: “The trouble with navy’s proposal is that they want the Bismarck (the giant World War II German battleship).”
Navy’s top brass has met this week to consider how to respond to Mr Richardson’s directive.
Defence is seeking first-pass approval to conduct a tender process for the new frigates in 2019, with the first ships potentially *becoming available in the mid-2020s, when the first of the Anzac class retires.
The government wants to build the new ships in Australia because that will be the only way to guarantee the survival of the naval shipbuilding industry.
To help sustain this ailing *industry, the government is considering fast-tracking the new frigates. Last year it committed $78.2 million to bring forward preliminary design work on the project. Even so, this will not avoid naval shipbuilding job *losses this year.


Cheers
 

t68

Well-Known Member
No matter what goverment is in according to our politicians we are all ways in an "era of fiscal restraint" when it comes to opening the check book, as they don't want to be seen starting a arms race in the region. I am still amazed we got the LHD's
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
No matter what goverment is in according to our politicians we are all ways in an "era of fiscal restraint" when it comes to opening the check book, as they don't want to be seen starting a arms race in the region. I am still amazed we got the LHD's
The arms race in the region has already well and truly begun. Everyone in SE Asia is nervous of China and is following S Korea and Japan in massive upgrading of their militaries. If anything, Australia and NZ are the odd ones out
MB
 

knightrider4

Active Member
No matter what goverment is in according to our politicians we are all ways in an "era of fiscal restraint" when it comes to opening the check book, as they don't want to be seen starting a arms race in the region. I am still amazed we got the LHD's
I find this article very hard to believe. Those specifications are for a Destroyer, if this conversation even took place likely a case of ask for something you know you won't get approved and then your second proposal gets approved. The Fremm ASW version looks a likely contender.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
Sounded like RAN wants to obtain a couple of Burke class DDGs.

I dont see that that FREMM frigates necessary presents the best option for us. Other than the hull/Sea frame, the rest of the ship, the armament/weapons, sensors and combat system will be so totally different. We probably want the US systems rather than the French dominated European systems. I would see that BAE Type 26 or Navantia F110 would probably make more sense for us.
 

knightrider4

Active Member
Sounded like RAN wants to obtain a couple of Burke class DDGs.

I dont see that that FREMM frigates necessary presents the best option for us. Other than the hull/Sea frame, the rest of the ship, the armament/weapons, sensors and combat system will be so totally different. We probably want the US systems rather than the French dominated European systems. I would see that BAE Type 26 or Navantia F110 would probably make more sense for us.
I read in DTR April edition that the Italian ASW Fremm built by Ficannteiri, hope I spelled that correctly was being actively marketed in Australia. FM stsed that the version they were pushing was equipped with CEAFAR, Mk41 VLS and SAAB 9LV. Time will tell I guess.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Sounded like RAN wants to obtain a couple of Burke class DDGs.

I dont see that that FREMM frigates necessary presents the best option for us. Other than the hull/Sea frame, the rest of the ship, the armament/weapons, sensors and combat system will be so totally different. We probably want the US systems rather than the French dominated European systems. I would see that BAE Type 26 or Navantia F110 would probably make more sense for us.
The Type 26 is a reasonable bet. The Iver Huitfeld class is worthy of consideration as well. The RCN may very well end up with a modified Absalon/Iver Huifeld hydride as the design choice for our new surface combatant ship. I think the goal is a ship in the 6000-7000 ton class. This is similar to FREMM and slightly more than the Type 26.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I read in DTR April edition that the Italian ASW Fremm built by Ficannteiri, hope I spelled that correctly was being actively marketed in Australia. FM stsed that the version they were pushing was equipped with CEAFAR, Mk41 VLS and SAAB 9LV. Time will tell I guess.
With so many decent frigate designs available, one can sort of understand the delays in deciding which can best meet your navy's mission requirements with minimal design changes together will the best value for money.
 

Delta204

Active Member
I find this article very hard to believe. Those specifications are for a Destroyer, if this conversation even took place likely a case of ask for something you know you won't get approved and then your second proposal gets approved. The Fremm ASW version looks a likely contender.
Agree with this. A 96 cell ship would probably be over the 9,000 tonne range; perhaps they mixed up the number of missiles carried vs launchers. Theoretically a 48 cell mk 41 could hold 16 cells quad pack ESSM = 64 missiles. Remaining 32 cells with SM-2/SM-6 and/or TLAM/LRASM = 32 missiles for a total of 96 missiles. I think they navy probably asked for ships that were just as big as the constructed AWD's and the govt. said find something more economical.

I also like the FREMM design; maybe a year ago there was one that stopped by in Canada for a visit where French officials had stated that if Canada were to choose the FREMM design it would be possible to install Mk 41 cells as well as the customers choice of sensor suite (most likely a Thales radar in Canada's case). This flexibility would be desirable for both the RAN and RCN which would probably want to stick with American missiles.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Its not really a case of what the RAN want rather it is, after assessing the requirements the government have placed on them within the current and evolving strategic environment, what the experts in the RAN have determined to be needed. The RAN needed Flight IIA Burkes, or similar, to replace the DDGs then FFGs and a GP frigate or even an FFG to replace the River class DEs (frigates) and instead got upgraded FFGs, ANZAC patrol frigates and soon F-100 AEGIS frigates.

The RAN got smaller, less capable ships than they actually needed, much later than they needed them, forcing expensive life extensions, capability gaps, increased project costs through having to rebuild from scratch, rather than just improving upon existing capability. If the referenced articles are correct the same mistakes of the past look likely to be repeated resulting in less capability at equivalent if not greater cost than just acquiring what the subject matter experts (the RAN) say they need.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Looking at it holistically the facts are the RAN of the 80s and 90s was a fleet designed around aircraft carriers and the plans to dramatically increase the number and capability of the rest of the fleets combatants to compensate the loss of Melbourne (more to the point her aircraft) was never realised. In addition the intention to increase numbers of combatants within a limited budget resulted in smaller, less capable designs being procured instead of the sort of ships the RAN said they needed, then for various reasons, usually financial, the additional hulls were never ordered, negating the reasoning behind going for the less capable option in the first place.

As I understand it what became the ANZACs were originally intended to be a smaller number of high end GP frigates with an excellent ASW capability and a pair of helicopters, the baseline solution being additional FFGs. The front runners, in terms of meeting the actual requirements were fully spec'd M Class and Type 23 frigates but the still born NFR90 is probably more what the RAN (and the rest of the western world) were thinking of at the time. The NFR90 failed and was succeeded by a number of other projects, the Horizon, Type124, De Zeven Provinciën, Type 45 and F-100, while the US concentrated on the Arliegh Burke Class DDGs. These are all much larger, infinitely more capable ships than the "the for but not with" Patrol Frigates the RAN ended up with which is why so much effort has been put into upgrading the ANZACs, first with the aborted ANZAC WIP and more recently the very successful ASMD, which is let down only by the limitations of the original, too small, MEKO platform.

At the end of the day plans to increase combatant numbers fell over, the three tier system of eight Tier 1 destroyers, eight Teir 2 frigates, eight-twelve (I have never found anything definite on numbers) Tier 3 high end corvettes and the bit everyone forgets, eight Collins class SSGs, never eventuated. The fleet we have today is not that different in numbers to what has been maintained since the end of WWII, the difference is in the mix of ships and their comparative capability when compared to other navies with interests in our region, with the exception of the LHDs and (if they go ahead) the expanded submarine force.

Personally I can't help but wonder if we would have been better off going for quality over quantity. Irrespective of carriers, LHDs and submarines, surface combatant numbers have hovered around a dozen for decades and plans to increase number have only ever resulted in lower spec designs being selected to permit more hulls to be planned but never procured. Imagine if instead of FFG, ANZAC, F-100 and now the RAN is being told to go smaller and cheaper than what they know they need, successive governments had simply maintained a fleet of six destroyers and six frigates, while perhaps upgrading the patrol force to OPVs. Instead of looking at the current financial (and strategic) situation, take the long view of value for money rather than short term cost cutting.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Can one call Type 124 & De Zeven Provincien separate projects? They're variations of the same design, built at the same time. Same platform, same radars, variants of the same combat system, same main SAM armament (though the Germans have fewer VLS, & some RAM instead), same IRSTs, variants of the same hull sonar, same anti-ship missiles.
 

Stock

Member
Should Navy require a heavier calibre than 25 mm Cannon but less than 76 mm could they opt to piggyback on Army's planned 30-40 mm acquisition for Land 400?
Given there will be economies in scale plus the ability to share an ammunition supply, possibly locally produced, would this be considered worthwhile?
Will depend on what the RAN determines they need the OPVs for exactly. IMO it is hard to see any missile-based armament on these vessels, nor a medium calibre gun above 40mm. A RW UAV like Fire Scout armed with Hellfire missiles and the APKWS 70mm guided rocket would deliver decent stand-off strike capability against minor surface and littoral targets without the OPV having to get up close and personal.

Army is almost certain to procure APKWS for Tiger ARH (see story below in May DTR) and the RAN is showing interest in it as well for MH-60R. The US Navy is near to fielding APKWS for its MH-60Rs (two 19-round pods).

Defence Technology Review : DTR MAY 2015, Page 1

As for guns, once Army's ASLAVs and the Fremantle-class are withdrawn from service (next 5 years), the only platforms fitted with 25mm will be the LHDs. For the CRV requirement in Land 400, 30mm is the calibre most likely, with 40mm an outside chance (case telescoped ammunition not the standard 40mm L70 naval round).

Going up to the 30mm Rafael Typhoon would require a new gun (Mk 44 Bushmaster II) and provide an extra 500m or so in range against surface and air targets. The 30mm round hits harder and has greater lethality over the 25mm certainly but it is worth the change? Not sure.

If the RAN deems a larger calibre gun necessary I would like to see the 35mm Millennium Gun from Rheinmetall given serious consideration. In service, compact and relatively lightweight mounting (no deck penetration) and a round with much greater range and lethality against a wider range of targets (including UAV, ASMs, aircraft) than either 25 or 30mm. Range is another 1,000m on top of 30mm Typhoon. ROF is single shot, 200rpm or 1,000rpm. Fires the excellent AHEAD family of programmable ammunition, HE-I or APDS. Entire module can be removed/replaced in 30 minutes.

A 57mm or 76mm main gun for the OPVs I cannot see, but a 35mm option is balanced, flexible against both surface and air targets, cheap to buy and support through-life with minimal maintenance and training burdens and little impact on vessel design.

A 35mm Millennium Gun mounted forward with perhaps a 25mm Typhoon above the hangar aft (secondary armament and maintains commonality with LHDs weapons) and finished off with a couple of pedestal-mounted .50 cals would be my bet.
 
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