Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[John Newman]

Acknowledging the enhanced capabilities and mission flexibility that a helo brings and given that an MRH90 would be embarked on as needed basis and not organic to the vessel, I'm interested to learn what design and cost implications a helo flight deck has on OPV design and build.

Also, is a hangar desirable/necessary for the OPVs?

As we know very little of what capabilities and specs are sought in the OPVs, I do wonder if omission of a helo flight deck and/or hangar might be a candidate cost-cutting measure for a cash-strapped Defence budget.

If you look at the various OPV designs that are currently available in the 80m-100m range, most appear to have some sort of aviation capability, from just a flight deck, right up to a flight deck, refuelling facilities and a hangar too.

If a chosen design had all of those inherent aviation capabilities in its 'basic' design (for example the 83m Damen OPV 1800 that I mentioned last page), it would probably 'cost' just as much to delete said capabilities, whatever is 'saved' in material costs by not building a flight deck and hangar will probably be counterbalanced by the redesign costs to remove said capability.

So what would be the point of that??

 

[John Newman]

"Combat" roles like anti-piracy are best left to the frigates I believe. Not because they are needed, they are clearly vastly over-powered, but because it gives them an additional justification to the public and politicians for their existence.

There is a risk their number could be reduced if their active roles are seen to be replaced by cheaper OPVs. I would prefer a larger combat fleet than a larger patrol fleet if it came to that trade-off.

The FFGs bring the aviation support that the IPVs lack and seem to have done quite well conducting the longer range patrolling.

The ability to transport asylum seekers and evacuate personnel post disaster (ie HADR) is a good justification for an OPV. How much this influences the design is what I am interested in.

Where is there any suggestion that introducing OPV's to the RAN is somehow going to reduce the number of hulls in the 'combat fleet'? From all that I have seen, heard and read, and I have not heard anyone other than what you are suggesting now, that OPV's will potentially see a reduction in hulls at the top end of town.

What certainly seems clear (regardless of OPV's or not) is that the frigate fleet will reduce from it current 12 (4 x FFG and 8 x FFH) to 11 (3 x AWD and 8 x Future Frigates). Obviously until the new DWP is produced we all won't know what the Governments plans are for the RAN's surface fleet, but I honestly don't think that the frigate fleet is likely to be reduced below 11, in fact to do so would probably 'hurt' the plans that the Government appears to have for fostering a more sustainable shipbuilding sector.

 

[ngatimozart]

All due respect Ngati, but the Moa class were outperformed by almost anything that floated. If you're feeling nostalgic though, there are a couple of sale for around the $250K mark.

Never claimed that they were first class warships, but they illustrate the difference between the capabilities of an IPV and an OPV. Am most definitely not nostalgic about going to sea on them.

The real point is that it has to be horses for courses as John says. You have to have the right ship for the job or the right platform to meet the capability requirements. In the Australian context they have differing requirements to NZ but still have vast distances to cover. They also have border issues that NZ doesn't yet face, which require a blue water naval response. The RAN has been responding to this but the vessels they predominately use, ACPBs, aren't suited to the taking hence OPVs would be a far superior option. The OPV hull, if designed well, can also lend itself to multi-mission capabilities with modular systems being one aspect of those capabilities. However OPVs in RAN service are a political sideshow with the proposal being accepted by the pollies and then continuously set aside regardless of the benefits to the RAN and the CoA capability wise and financially.

 

[Joe Black]

Damen introduces new OPV to meet demand for multimission platforms

It looks like Damen is introducing new OPV tailored to meet RAN's needs:

Damen introduces new OPV to meet demand for multimission platforms - IHS Jane's 360

 

[Volkodav]

It looks like Damen is introducing new OPV tailored to meet RAN's need:

Damen introduces new OPV to meet demand for multimission platforms - IHS Jane's 360

Absolutely perfect, it's almost like Damen have been working closely with people familiar with the RANs needs.... wait a second.

 

[StingrayOZ]

That looks like a pretty good fit, would like to see some more details.

But I like that it can support a helicopter and a UAV without much stuffing around. I assume the multi mission bay is infront of the hanger as containers(?) can fit through the hanger?

I wonder if the RAN will go for builds across multiple sizes, say 8 75m ones and say 4 95m ones

 

[the road runner]

ASPI have a number of video's up from the Future Surface Fleet 2015.
Am watching "The Future or Australia's Navy Shipbuilding" now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y45m9lgS604

They talk about Aegis and how CEAFAR radar and how it will shave years off the development off the future frigate for Australia ... 10 hours worth of ASPI videos on their youtube page for anyone interested

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcb6evdaNI92eps3eZXUCvg

 

[alexsa]

Absolutely perfect, it's almost like Damen have been working closely with people familiar with the RANs needs.... wait a second.

It is essntially a revised 2499 with the sea axe bow, nice vessel. Always liked the 2400 and the upgraded hull form and endurance is not a bad thing.

 

[justsomeaussie]

All the replacements for SPS 49 that you mention are 3rd gen radars. You half answered the question, CEA technologies will have a large involvement in the replacement and First Pass approval has been given for that. Anzac frigate air search radar replacement approved

This would see the Anzacs fitted with an all 4th gen outfit that will easily see them through to LOT

It looks like CEA has come along way with their L Band AESA design. I origionally saw it where it was a long horizontal array that sat as a cap ontop of the PAR cupola but now it seems they have chosen to go with diamond shapes for L band as well. I understand that the diamond shape is better for sidelopes so it's interesting that this was such a problem at L Band as well.

Australia studies CEAFAR2 high-power PAR concept - IHS Jane's 360
Google Image Result for http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/83115590fdae49a959ad32aea1e17902819818f.jpg

The nice part of going down to L Band is that get the longer range that a lower frequency will give you but can also inter splice the IFF decoders for Mode S etc inside the receivers. A very nice duel role for each radar.

The second image is obviously a GCS concept but still an interesting layout.

 

[John Newman]

That looks like a pretty good fit, would like to see some more details.

But I like that it can support a helicopter and a UAV without much stuffing around. I assume the multi mission bay is infront of the hanger as containers(?) can fit through the hanger?

I wonder if the RAN will go for builds across multiple sizes, say 8 75m ones and say 4 95m ones

Had a look at the Damen website and there isn't any specific details on these 'new' OPV-2 ships yet, (there is of course the details on their other 'standard/current' OPV designs).

Instead of x number of the 75m ships and x number of the 95m ships as you have suggested, why not a single class of say the 85m 1,800t ships? Maybe this could be the basis for the Government eventually reviving SEA1800 MRV's?

According to the Janes report, the ships can be fitted with various mission modules, to quote the article, it mentions these ships are designed to carry mission modules for:

"Humanitarian assistance and disaster relief (HADR), counterpiracy, search-and-rescue (SAR), mine countermeasures (MCM) operations, and oil spill recovery"

Apart from the basic OPV capabilities of the ship, the only thing missing from that list (compared to SEA1180), is a hydrographic capability, and maybe that is a 'modular' capability that could no doubt be developed and then added at a later date?

Let's assume that the Government is looking at replacing the ACPB's with a class of OPV's (as the Def Min mentioned recently) and eventually 'revive' SEA 1180 too, then maybe it might be smart to say purchase around 10 of the 83m OPV-2's to replace the ACPB's in the not too distant future (would align as a gap filler for the Valley of Death, as per the suggestion in the RAND report) and then later on purchase another batch of say around 10 ships as the replacements for the 6 mine warfare ships and the 6 hydrographic ships.

Could an eventual class of Damen OPV-2's (2 x batches of 10), be the answer to SEA1180??

 

[aussienscale]

It is essntially a revised 2499 with the sea axe bow, nice vessel. Always liked the 2400 and the upgraded hull form and endurance is not a bad thing.

Anyone know where we are at with the Damen 2400 Helicopter Training Ship ? Cant say I have seen anything official as yet ?

If we are getting 1 x 2400 why not more ?

 

[John Newman]

Anyone know where we are at with the Damen 2400 Helicopter Training Ship ? Cant say I have seen anything official as yet ?

If we are getting 1 x 2400 why not more ?

Talking of the 1 x 2400 helicopter training ship, I was just on Google and searching for 'Damen OPV-2' to see if there was anymore details other than the 'Janes' report and I came across this:

http://www.seawaves.com/currentshipprojects.PDF

It's a PDF from a website called 'seawaves.com', if you have a look at the bottom of page 1 and top of page 2, you will see mention of a total of '20' OPV2400's for Australia!!

What the???

Am I missing something that has been approved but not yet announced? Does this 'seawave' website know something that we don't??

 

[Stock]

Talking of the 1 x 2400 helicopter training ship, I was just on Google and searching for 'Damen OPV-2' to see if there was anymore details other than the 'Janes' report and I came across this:

http://www.seawaves.com/currentshipprojects.PDF

It's a PDF from a website called 'seawaves.com', if you have a look at the bottom of page 1 and top of page 2, you will see mention of a total of '20' OPV2400's for Australia!!

What the???

Am I missing something that has been approved but not yet announced? Does this 'seawave' website know something that we don't??

Doubt it. I reckon they might be getting their wires crossed with the Pacific Patrol Boat program. Which of course will not be OPVs.

 

[John Newman]

Doubt it. I reckon they might be getting their wires crossed with the Pacific Patrol Boat program. Which of course will not be OPVs.

Yes, probably correct, I was just about to do an 'edit' to my post, I did a recount and there are '21' mentioned not 20, but it was just funny that we are talking about OPV's and there was mention of the '2400' and bingo!! there is a list with 21 2400 OPV's!

Maybe this is an omen, a class of at least 20 OPV's in the upcoming DWP!!

Well I can dream can't I??

 

[aussienscale]

Talking of the 1 x 2400 helicopter training ship, I was just on Google and searching for 'Damen OPV-2' to see if there was anymore details other than the 'Janes' report and I came across this:

http://www.seawaves.com/currentshipprojects.PDF

It's a PDF from a website called 'seawaves.com', if you have a look at the bottom of page 1 and top of page 2, you will see mention of a total of '20' OPV2400's for Australia!!

What the???

Am I missing something that has been approved but not yet announced? Does this 'seawave' website know something that we don't??

Interesting indeed, I think there are a few interesting announcements coming before the next election and in the DWP !!

BTW, I counted 21

Cheers

 

[John Newman]

On a side note to the current discussions, I just noticed that the RAN thread on Defence Talk is now 1000 pages strong!!!

Congratulations to all who have contributed, past and present, looking forward to being part of the next 1000 (if I live that long that is! ha ha)!!!

Cheers,

John

 

[John Newman]

Interesting indeed, I think there are a few interesting announcements coming before the next election and in the DWP !!

BTW, I counted 21

Cheers

I think I 'jumped the gun' there a bit, if you have a look at the post above, I realised that there was 21 too and was about to do an 'edit', it is probably related to the announcement of the replacement Pacific Class PB's, but still wouldn't mind hearing an announcement of 21 2400 OPV's!!!

 

[Volkodav]

I think I 'jumped the gun' there a bit, if you have a look at the post above, I realised that there was 21 too and was about to do an 'edit', it is probably related to the announcement of the replacement Pacific Class PB's, but still wouldn't mind hearing an announcement of 21 2400 OPV's!!!

Wouldn't it be ironic (not to mention frustrating) if the up coming DWP has a lot in common with the 2009 DWP? The way things appear to be shaping up the Abbott government actually appears to be coming to the same conclusions as the Rudd government did but the Gillard government ignored in their efforts to offload our defence obligations onto the US.

I think, in hindsight, we would all be better off if Gillard had lost in 2010, as all of the wasted efforts and delays would have been avoided and hopefully Abbott did the same as Frazer and kept the sensible stuff, having not needed to paint himself into a corner on so many issues. The Rudd years were not a waste until Gillard decided to behave like an incoming alternative government and changing many things on purely ideological grounds, things that an incoming Liberal government should have had no real issue with.

 

[rjtjrt]

.....If we are getting 1 x 2400 why not more ?

As I understand it, the Damen 2400 is being bought by a civilian contractor to provide a service to RAN (helicopter training) but it will not be owned by RAN. Maybe it can be tasked with other duties, such as Triton has been doing, but it's primary role at least is the helicopter training one.

 

[alexsa]

Anyone know where we are at with the Damen 2400 Helicopter Training Ship ? Cant say I have seen anything official as yet ?

If we are getting 1 x 2400 why not more ?

It is not actually a 2400 as such. Bit of a hybrid commercial design