Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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t68

Well-Known Member
Why couldn't we just have bought the baby Burke's and have done with it! :confused:
Well that's whats the defence Cheifs wanted from the start, but to be honest from the way this project has gone and how our shipbuilding experience was hollowed I am not entirely sure the Gibbs build will be much diffrent, don't forget the way it has gone the last last Labour goverment with its hand in the till are as much to blame.

In hindsight we should have bought the 3 Burkes straight of the US production line and still build 2or 3 here in a similer deal to the Adelaide class ships.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
Well that's whats the defence Cheifs wanted from the start, but to be honest from the way this project has gone and how our shipbuilding experience was hollowed I am not entirely sure the Gibbs build will be much diffrent, don't forget the way it has gone the last last Labour goverment with its hand in the till are as much to blame.

In hindsight we should have bought the 3 Burkes straight of the US production line and still build 2or 3 here in a similer deal to the Adelaide class ships.
AWD Alliance should have given most hull blocks (400s and 500s) of Ship 1 to Navatia and have ASC build the 700s blocks only, and with Ship 2 and 3, ASC could then progressively take over some more of those blocks. This will allow them to learn how to read the design faster, or rectify the problems quicker (such as realising the lack of the 3D modelling CAD tool and overly reliance on 2D design on paper)...

Lesson learnt, one shouldn't start fabricating and building ships when the design is not near completion. One should also use a modern 3D CAD tool for such complex design work. :)
 
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ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro

Joe Black

Active Member
https://www.facebook.com/RoyalAustr...328388215194/1051321021549264/?type=1&theater
Good to see HMAS Warramunga back in the water after 14 months of her ASMD upgrade. HMAS Parramatta in soon and her ship's company transferred . Four Anzacs now completed with Ballarat out next.
The programme certainly seems to be rolling along nicely and, like the Anzacs build, numbers matter in terms of efficiency.

Details on the RAN facebook page last night with some good pics.
Indeed excellent to see the progress.... there is an article from CEA that gives a bit more insight into the ASMD upgrade:
http://www.cea.com.au/News+Media/Attachments/2015-0001.pdf

Will be interesting to see what S band CEAFAR radar will look like and if it will replace the existing Raytheon SPS-49(V)8 search radar. I always wonder why they have kept it on and not replace it with something like the Saab Sea Giraffe 4A, Artisan 3D or SMART-S.
 

rand0m

Member
From someone with little/no military background I had a few questions in regards to the ASMD & ESSM fitted out on the Anzac frigates.

From basic information available to the public suggests the C-802 & P-800 anti ship missiles are/have been present in our region.

The C-802 is sighted to have a speed of mach 0.9 (306 metres/second)
The P-800 is sighted to have a speed of mach 2.5 (850 metres/second)
The ESSM is reported to have a range of 50km+ - assuming here that the max range of the ESSM is 50km

My calculations would suggest that the C-802 would cover the 50km distance in 163 seconds with the P-800 covering the same distance in 58 seconds.

Then there's the issue of detecting and classifying the threat & responding with a solution (ESSM?) in time.

Again with no military background, doesn't this cut it a little fine time wise?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
AWD Alliance should have given most hull blocks (400s and 500s) of Ship 1 to Navatia and have ASC build the 700s blocks only, and with Ship 2 and 3, ASC could then progressively take over some more of those blocks. This will allow them to learn how to read the design faster, or rectify the problems quicker (such as realising the lack of the 3D modelling CAD tool and overly reliance on 2D design on paper)...

Lesson learnt, one shouldn't start fabricating and building ships when the design is not near completion. One should also use a modern 3D CAD tool for such complex design work. :)
In the 90s I was using 2D CAD daily, a project I was responsible for was transferring 2D hard copy product drawings to CAD while all new and modified tooling was being done in 3D CAD/CAM. Early 2000s I was using 3D packages including a 3D printer for rapid prototyping, mid 2000s I was contracting out jigs, fixtures, tooling and gauges, all designed to manufacture components provided to us as 3D models, to a number of small, local tooling companies where they manufactured what we had designed from data files, no hard copy at all. I move across to defence and the Collins project in the late 2000s, where they are transitioning to a 3D model and using computer modelling more and more extensively.

2010 I move to AWD and to my complete disbelief engineering data is being received in poor organised, difficult to identify and interpret 2D pdf format drawings. In twenty years of engineering experience this was the most difficult to use, poorly organised and controlled technical data I have ever encountered. Why, because that is what the government contracted. As I understand it the decision was made, by non technical types, to reduce risk and cost by building to print. i.e. there was quite intentionally very little wriggle room provided to ASC, as the shipbuilder, to do anything other than build (or contract out) the2D pdf drawings they had been given to build to. Any problems had to be identified, fed back to Navantia to fix and then passed back to production (the contractors) to build. In the end to speed things up ASC was reviewing data before releasing it to production, finding errors, fixing the errors, passing the design solutions to Navantia for their approval before releasing the data to production. This was for the build to print parts, it was even worse for the all too frequent design changes that more often than not seemed to arrive, without notice, after fabrication to the original design had begun or even been completed.

Over and above the completely ferked build to print debacle, there were layers of completely risk adverse, technically illiterate, commercial, contracts, procurement and risk "professionals", who made things worse. They seemed to believe the ASC engineering and production people were, initially, obstructionist when they warned of the need to review data, vet suppliers and contractors and have the authority to make time critical engineering changes locally, then incompetent when the problems they warned of happened and the mitigation they suggested had been ignored. I personally witnessed a senior, experienced ASC technical person being told not to assist a critical subcontractor do their job as it exposed ASC if there were problems, it was better in their pathetic blinkered, bean counter, version of reality, to have a contractor ferk up than to work with them to make sure it was done right the first time.

Every time international experts are brought in to review AWD they find the same thing, the people doing the actual work are doing a great job, the issue is, due to previous black holes, the decision makers don't know what they are doing. Most of the decision makers are not technically competent and those who are competent have no authority. The politicians and bureaucrats calling the shots are giving all the power and authority to the wrong type of people and are then shocked when things don't go to plan and instead of identifying the root cause, choose to blame the very people who warned them what was going to happen.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
From someone with little/no military background I had a few questions in regards to the ASMD & ESSM fitted out on the Anzac frigates.

From basic information available to the public suggests the C-802 & P-800 anti ship missiles are/have been present in our region.

The C-802 is sighted to have a speed of mach 0.9 (306 metres/second)
The P-800 is sighted to have a speed of mach 2.5 (850 metres/second)
The ESSM is reported to have a range of 50km+ - assuming here that the max range of the ESSM is 50km

My calculations would suggest that the C-802 would cover the 50km distance in 163 seconds with the P-800 covering the same distance in 58 seconds.

Then there's the issue of detecting and classifying the threat & responding with a solution (ESSM?) in time.

Again with no military background, doesn't this cut it a little fine time wise?
Well, a missile like the P-800 with its size and heat signature should be detected far sooner than the subsonic wave skimmers like Exocet, NSM, etc. There are a whole bunch of factors to consider though, besides the speed/signature of the missile versus the range and capability of ESSM. Imagine for example that the target vessel is networked with offboard sensors (from other ships, MPAs and so on) - in that case targeting data could possibly be had sooner than if the target vessel was relying solely on its own onboard sensors. Then there is also the question of other capabilities present on the target vessel, ESSM is not the only game in town and one could expect a full range of decoys (Nulka for example) to be deployed in the path of the oncoming missile. Or perhaps even offboard defensive fires, such as an AWD responding to a large hostile missile with a salvo of Standards.

Overall the platforms and datalinks should provide a system with which to react to various combat scenarios (and I can't imagine the RAN would deploy a frigate out on its own in an area where hostile forces had access to hypersonic anti-ship missiles). But ultimately in answer to your question, yes, I'm sure it seems as though it's cutting it a bit fine. But cutting it fine is far better than not cutting at all, and ESSM has been tested against a range of simulated hypersonic threats. I don't know if this is quite the answer you're after but I'm just trying to illustrate that modern, networked battle significantly alters the landscape, and comparing publicly released figures on the speed and capability of missile A vs missile B is not necessarily going to give you a realistic outcome. Hope it helps.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
On the ASMD, just imagine these upgrades being fitted to a larger more capable base design than the base ANZAC design. For example it was intended at one point to build six instead of only two FFGs in Australia, so these six could have received an upgrade including CAE radars, IRST and VLS inplace of the Mk-13 GMLS, while the older four US built ships could have just been retired. Imagine the four Kidd class DDGs upgraded in the same way replacing the Perth class DDGs and first four FFGs. Maybe larger UK Type 23, German Type 123, or even a larger MEKO frigate design built instead of the MEKOs, how much better would the ASMD have been, retrofitted to a larger more capable base design?
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Indeed excellent to see the progress.... there is an article from CEA that gives a bit more insight into the ASMD upgrade:
http://www.cea.com.au/News+Media/Attachments/2015-0001.pdf

Will be interesting to see what S band CEAFAR radar will look like and if it will replace the existing Raytheon SPS-49(V)8 search radar. I always wonder why they have kept it on and not replace it with something like the Saab Sea Giraffe 4A, Artisan 3D or SMART-S.
All the replacements for SPS 49 that you mention are 3rd gen radars. You half answered the question, CEA technologies will have a large involvement in the replacement and First Pass approval has been given for that. Anzac frigate air search radar replacement approved

This would see the Anzacs fitted with an all 4th gen outfit that will easily see them through to LOT
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
What I would love to see is the upgraded systems on the ANZACs being lifted from the ships once they reach LOT, being upgraded and fitted to new hulls. These could be either new frigates, or looking outside the square, two of the systems could be fitted to the LHDs as part of a MLU and the rest to a class of high end OPVs to supplement / replace the patrol boats.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
From someone with little/no military background I had a few questions in regards to the ASMD & ESSM fitted out on the Anzac frigates.

From basic information available to the public suggests the C-802 & P-800 anti ship missiles are/have been present in our region.

The C-802 is sighted to have a speed of mach 0.9 (306 metres/second)
The P-800 is sighted to have a speed of mach 2.5 (850 metres/second)
The ESSM is reported to have a range of 50km+ - assuming here that the max range of the ESSM is 50km

My calculations would suggest that the C-802 would cover the 50km distance in 163 seconds with the P-800 covering the same distance in 58 seconds.

Then there's the issue of detecting and classifying the threat & responding with a solution (ESSM?) in time.

Again with no military background, doesn't this cut it a little fine time wise?
The questions you pose have been answered in 2013 at the Barking Sands Pacific Missile Range in Hawaii. HMAS Perth successfully engaged multiple (OK 2) Coyote Mach 3 sea skimming targets. Please remember though that the CEA Radars in the Anzacs are specifically designed around the envelope of ESSM but their design enable them to be easily up-scaled for longer range engagements.

http://www.cea.com.au/News+Media/Attachments/2014-0002.pdf
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The questions you pose have been answered in 2013 at the Barking Sands Pacific Missile Range in Hawaii. HMAS Perth successfully engaged multiple (OK 2) Coyote Mach 3 sea skimming targets. Please remember though that the CEA Radars in the Anzacs are specifically designed around the envelope of ESSM but their design enable them to be easily up-scaled for longer range engagements.

http://www.cea.com.au/News+Media/Attachments/2014-0002.pdf
ASMD from all informed accounts appears to be an outstanding upgrade that has delivered everything, if not more than was promised. I would go so far as to suggest that the biggest limitation of the improved capability is the platform it is fitted to.

On that I am curious as to whether any thought is still being given to further life extending and upgrading Melbourne and Newcastle, as the capabilities provided by the CEA radars (especially if an additional S-band array is added) and Vampir could produce a very interesting result. Such an upgrade would deliver not just the ESSM capability seen on the ANZACs but add SM-2 to the equation, specifically it would fix the limitation of the current installation where SM-2 is limited by the lack of a 3D radar. The end result could deliver near AEGIS capability, restricted only by the rate of fire of the Mk-13 verses that of a VLS. It may be worth doing if only to trial concepts for the eventual ANZAC replacement.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
ASMD from all informed accounts appears to be an outstanding upgrade that has delivered everything, if not more than was promised. I would go so far as to suggest that the biggest limitation of the improved capability is the platform it is fitted to.

On that I am curious as to whether any thought is still being given to further life extending and upgrading Melbourne and Newcastle, as the capabilities provided by the CEA radars (especially if an additional S-band array is added) and Vampir could produce a very interesting result. Such an upgrade would deliver not just the ESSM capability seen on the ANZACs but add SM-2 to the equation, specifically it would fix the limitation of the current installation where SM-2 is limited by the lack of a 3D radar. The end result could deliver near AEGIS capability, restricted only by the rate of fire of the Mk-13 verses that of a VLS. It may be worth doing if only to trial concepts for the eventual ANZAC replacement.
AND, for anyone who has witnessed multiple firings from a Mk13, that's not much of a limitation.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
AND, for anyone who has witnessed multiple firings from a Mk13, that's not much of a limitation.
Very true, the limitation on the FFGs was more the number of fire control channels than the rate of fire of the launcher. With a VLS in addition to the Mk-13 and phased array X band CEAMOUNT an FFG could just about fill the sky with ESSMs and SM-2s should the threat require it.
 

Punta74

Member
Make sense to extend Melbourne and Newcastle, guess we'll know more in a few months with the white paper.

Was due for release is March (election commitment) now mid 2015. Is there a chance this could be pushed back further ? I assume the ship building plan will be released the same day ?
 

Joe Black

Active Member
Make sense to extend Melbourne and Newcastle, guess we'll know more in a few months with the white paper.

Was due for release is March (election commitment) now mid 2015. Is there a chance this could be pushed back further ? I assume the ship building plan will be released the same day ?
Extending the ASMD to Melbourne and Newcastle would be a brilliant idea and an interim gap filler before the AWD achieve FOC.

We can then sell the upgrade package to other countries who still have OHP class frigates. :)
 

Stock

Member
This is the proposed design from that article on the Austal website. If you click on the data sheet the specs are basically OPV requirements.

Austal Multi Role Vessel :: Naval Vessels :: Defence Products :: Products And Services :: En :: Austal
My understanding is that the MRV 80 was developed for the now stagnant Sea 1180 project, which outlined a larger vessel to replace the Armidale replacement, Huon-class minehunters and hydrographic ships with a common hull. An OPV requirement was to be part of that. The MRV 80 remains at concept stage only I believe.

With the faster than expected erosion of LOT of the Armidales due to massive workloads associated with the anti-people smuggling ops, their replacement is the priority now, with a proven patrol boat design the preferred way ahead to replace them. Which is why Austal has navalised its Cape-class design.

No idea when the RFT is due though.
 
In regards to the defence technology review article.

By coincidence I was looking at that Damen 950 OPV in service with the Romanian navy or coast guard. Seems a bit of a jump to go from a 250t vessel to a 950t vessel. There might be an argument to just go to 1500t and add a small helicopter and a telescoping hangar. However on 950t design if a helipad is added aft, and a small unmanned helicopter is added, then the 950t design seems very nice indeed.

If a helicopter drone is not added to the mix then replacing a 265t vessel with a 950t one seems a fraction overkill. Given that a 950t with an unmanned helicopter seems pretty cool. Note that Ecuador has for many years operated a 685t FAC with a Bell jetranger heli though I think they have tried to put too much in a too small a hull

So a 950t vessel with an unmanned helicopter looks a pretty nice option. Modest additions on a larger hull, thus not overly taxing the hull and pushing its limits.

I know no one cares, but a couple years ago I forwarded a sketch on this forum for a 700t steel patrol boat with a helipad aft, based on French Combatte III hull, or alternatively the Turkish Kilic 700t FAC. I drew in an SH60 heli in just for scale and got agro for it (such is life),, though in real life a much smaller heli would be fitted, the SH60 would only be for emergencies, and in no way would be the standard aircraft, I am not daft enough to suggest that a SH60 would be suitable for such a small boat except as a pad to rope down some supplies or a touch and go in calm weather. Should have drawn in a bell 429

The specs on the DTR mag look heaps like the sketch I drew up three years ago... sigh.
 
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