Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Volkodav]

V, as I understand it, it wasn't until June last year (nine months ago), that the Government and Ex Def Min actually announced the tenders for the two replacement AOR's and that they would be build O/S.

So I don't think it's quiet accurate to say that a decision was imminent twelve months ago. Realistically (even with the change of Def Min), I wouldn't mind betting that an announcement on who the winner is probably won't be announced until around the time of the May 2015 Budget or the new DWP, whichever comes first.

And realistically too, I think the only chance we would have ever seen the AOR's being built here (and delivered on time), would have been if during the Rudd Government's first term, when they were splashing around all those Billions of GFC dollars, if they had actually invested a few lousy Billion (small change in the overall scheme of things during the GFC) in expanding Techport, hardstands, enlarge the ship lift, etc, etc.

If that had actually happened (upgrade/expand the construction facilities), then it could have been followed up by an order for two ships at the end of the Rudd years, or during the early Gillard years, or even made it easier for the current Government to make a decision about local construction, but I think it's all too late now.

The last think I'd like to see is a replication of what is happening in Canada where their two AOR's are out of service and it will probably at least 5 years (or more), before local construction can provide the replacements. As much as I want to see local industry get a bite of the cherry, I certainly don't want to see the RAN be the looser.

I was at the opening of the ASC Shipyard and Rudd's speech seemed weird, like it had been cut or edited, it was so blatantly obvious that there should have been an announcement of a fourth destroyer, instead no announcement and a couple of months later Gillard is PM and Smith Defmin. Then comes the reorganisation at AWD giving Raytheon most of the top jobs while ASC and DMO are cut to the bone to save money, corners are cut to save money, projects are cut to save money and the schedule is slipped to save money.

The interesting thing about the Korean proposal for the AORs is it is a rip off of the ASC proposal that was first put forward several years ago and then dusted off again in 2013 for the procurement that finally got under way before the last election. Then all of a sudden the procurement process stops, a tender, excluding Australian industry involvement, is announced in its place and then nothing, again.

Gut feeling Gillard and her cronies derailed plans to order ships, fourth AWD, AORs, OCVs, LCH(R)s, new submarines, because being predominantly left wing Labour Lawyers, they didn't really give a stuff about industry, let alone defence. Smith seemed to want to lease ships from overseas in preference to actually making a concrete decision on new ships, it was quite clear he had no interest in the portfolio what so ever and was a waste of space. Then we had Johnston, who loved being wined and dined by lobbyists as well as using RAAF VIP aircraft as taxi's for his fellow (Liberal) sand gropers and now we have Kevin Andrews, a political dinosaur who also has little if any interest in defence but has taken the job to help sure up support for the PM. The alternative, Conroy, God help us, another left winger who has no time for the people in uniform, or those in industry, he's there to politicise the portfolio and attack the government.

Now the value of the dollar is dropping and the mining boom is definitely over we can no longer afford to buy the gear we could have several years ago and no longer have the money to fix local industry. I greatly fear for the future as we wasted billions when we had money now money is short and there are many capabilities that need investment that will miss out.

 

[John Fedup]

Now the value of the dollar is dropping and the mining boom is definitely over we can no longer afford to buy the gear we could have several years ago and no longer have the money to fix local industry. I greatly fear for the future as we wasted billions when we had money now money is short and there are many capabilities that need investment that will miss out.

Mirror image of the problems Canada's DND faces with the added issue of our much more dysfunctional procurement process.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Cyclone Pam: foreign aid reaches Port Vila as Vanuatu counts cost of destruction
Cyclone Pam: Vanuatu death toll rises as Australia pledges $5m in aid – as it happened | World news | The Guardian

* First reports are comming in 2 RAAF aircraft and 1 RNZAF.
* France has deployed a Frigate(?)
* 100,000 displaced people. 9 Countries affected. Most of population of Vanautu are homeless.

It will be interesting to see how Australia responds. C17 look like they were first in? Classic HADR. I wonder if we can spare deploying Choules or Canberra from their tasks without stuffing up their schedules. Given the wide spread of the area affected this is exactly where something like LCH could have been used. C17's can't fly into all islands and it looks like shipping and docks have been affected too.

I would imagine it may make it a high priority now. Particularly given the scale of what has happened.

 

[t68]

Could the remaining LCH in storage be used with a civil crew?

This is where I believe an LSV such as the Frank S Bessson class would come in handy for the RAN free up Choules and Canberra to be used if needed without throwing the training cycle out the window.Something like the RFA

 

[ASSAIL]

Could the remaining LCH in storage be used with a civil crew?

This is where I believe an LSV such as the Frank S Bessson class would come in handy for the RAN free up Choules and Canberra to be used if needed without throwing the training cycle out the window.Something like the RFA

The 3 LCHs at Cairns are not available but (definitely 2 and maybe? 3) those in Darwin would take at least 12 days and most likely 2 weeks to get to Vanuatu. Cairns Vanuatu is 1,400 miles, Darwin to Cairns 1,200 so at 9kts it'll take a while not including re-commissioning the ships.
I think that puts it in perspective. had the Cairns ships been available they could be there in 6 or 7 days ,depending upon weather., and would have proved absolutely invaluable.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The 3 LCHs at Cairns are not available but (definitely 2 and maybe? 3) those in Darwin would take at least 12 days and most likely 2 weeks to get to Vanuatu. Cairns Vanuatu is 1,400 miles, Darwin to Cairns 1,200 so at 9kts it'll take a while not including re-commissioning the ships.
I think that puts it in perspective. had the Cairns ships been available they could be there in 6 or 7 days ,depending upon weather., and would have proved absolutely invaluable.

there's the killer

 

[StingrayOZ]

there's the killer

Makes you wonder why they decommissioned them in the first place at the start of the season. Why not keep them till the end of the season, when there aren't 3 or 4 cyclones hitting Australia or its neighbours.

Getting aid to Vanuatu and Tuvalu will be fairly straight forward, but getting it around each of those countries will be pretty difficult. Don't imagine the C-130/C17's can make it to Tuvalu as they are too heavy to land.

 

[Bluey 006]

The 3 LCHs at Cairns are not available but (definitely 2 and maybe? 3) those in Darwin would take at least 12 days and most likely 2 weeks to get to Vanuatu. Cairns Vanuatu is 1,400 miles, Darwin to Cairns 1,200 so at 9kts it'll take a while not including re-commissioning the ships.
I think that puts it in perspective. had the Cairns ships been available they could be there in 6 or 7 days ,depending upon weather., and would have proved absolutely invaluable.

Perhaps the kiwis could send HMNZS Canterbury if she is available?

 

[chis73]

Perhaps the kiwis could send HMNZS Canterbury if she is available?

HMNZS Canterbury looks to be alongside at Devonport, and seems in no particular hurry to go anywhere. Somewhat embarrassingly, I find there is a webcam that points directly at the naval base.

I would have thought the ship would have been on standby, if not loaded & halfway to Vanuatu by now. Perhaps she should have been moved to Wellington a couple of days ago (in case Pam hit Auckland or Tauranga), loaded with engineering equipment from Linton, helicopters & relief supplies, and held ready to respond to damage in the Gisborne / East Cape area. Chalk up another failure for NZ.

If NZ is not going to send the Canterbury for this disaster, then what is the point of retaining the capability. The damned ship has been in service at least 7 years - if it still doesn't work then someone needs to be sacked - at a political level.

Chis73

 

[Zero Alpha]

HMNZS Canterbury looks to be alongside at Devonport, and seems in no particular hurry to go anywhere. Somewhat embarrassingly, I find there is a webcam that points directly at the naval base.

I would have thought the ship would have been on standby, if not loaded & halfway to Vanuatu by now. Perhaps she should have been moved to Wellington a couple of days ago (in case Pam hit Auckland or Tauranga), loaded with engineering equipment from Linton, helicopters & relief supplies, and held ready to respond to damage in the Gisborne / East Cape area. Chalk up another failure for NZ.

Chis73

Sailing a transport through a Force 5 storm isn't smart. Neither is rushing in before detailed reconnaissance. Emergency supplies are going by air. Rebuild materials will go by sea later. Rushing in and swamping the place with ill-considered supplies won't help anyone. New Zealand has first-hand experience in dealing with large-scale disaster. It doesn't need lecturing on what it should be doing.

 

[Todjaeger]

Sailing a transport through a Force 5 storm isn't smart. Neither is rushing in before detailed reconnaissance. Emergency supplies are going by air. Rebuild materials will go by sea later. Rushing in and swamping the place with ill-considered supplies won't help anyone. New Zealand has first-hand experience in dealing with large-scale disaster. It doesn't need lecturing on what it should be doing.

We might want to move this to the RNZN thread.

In a large scale disaster, many things are needed, not just supplies (emergency and non-emergency).

For something like this, having Canterbury staged closer but in a safe area of departure and either loaded with the types of supplies, personnel, and equipment most commonly required immediately after a large scale infrastructure damaging/destroying disaster, or with Canterbury unloaded but said personnel & kit immediately available for embarking would have IMO made sense.

Aircraft can of course fly in some supplies, personnel, and equipment. For something like this though, there needs to be areas where the aircraft can land and then takeoff again safely. There needs to be some way to get whatever personnel and supplies come in, away from the LZ and to where they are needed. The aircraft need to also either be able to be refueled, or have sufficient onboard fuel for the return trip. Given where Vanuatu is, either the aircraft are able to refuel there, or are making trips fairly lightly loaded.

A C-130H with a 35,000 lb. payload has a range of ~2,400 km, which is about 100 km short of the distance between Auckland and Vanuatu, but that would provide enough range to get from Whenuapai to Brisbane, refuel, and then fly to Vanuatu. The problem even with this though, is that with all the aircraft flying in, while they can get supplies in faster, they cannot deliver the quantity a single medium to large sized vessel can bring in by sea. Perhaps more importantly, aircraft cannot deliver the quantity of vehicles and other, large pieces of kit which are likely needed.

Engineering vehicles are likely needed to re-open access to areas and restore needed infrastructure. Mobile/deployable medical units are probably needed to get medical aid to areas needed, and/or to augment or replace medical facilities taken offline by the tropical cyclone. Communications to and from Vanuatu has been severely damaged and deployable local and long-ranged communications can be shipped in. Refrigeration equipment for perishable food storage and disaster mortuary operations. All of these types of things are routinely needed after such a significant disaster.

The utility of a vessel like Canterbury, or one of the RAN amphibs, is that once in the area they can choose where to have their supplies landed, even if port facilities are unavailable. Afterwards, the vessel(s) can remain in the area and serve as a command centre, a comm centre, floating hospital or surgery, barracks for disaster personnel, and a floating heli-base. These are again all capabilities which are of great value. The landing craft can be used to ferry personnel and vehicles around to different parts of the country, including the smaller islands where RAAF and RNZAF airlifters may not be able to land.

It is unfortunate, but it is fairly well-known what sorts of things are needed in the aftermath of a tropical cyclone/typhoon/hurricane. It will be interesting to see if/when Canterbury becomes involved.

 

[ADMk2]

We might want to move this to the RNZN thread.

In a large scale disaster, many things are needed, not just supplies (emergency and non-emergency).

For something like this, having Canterbury staged closer but in a safe area of departure and either loaded with the types of supplies, personnel, and equipment most commonly required immediately after a large scale infrastructure damaging/destroying disaster, or with Canterbury unloaded but said personnel & kit immediately available for embarking would have IMO made sense.

Aircraft can of course fly in some supplies, personnel, and equipment. For something like this though, there needs to be areas where the aircraft can land and then takeoff again safely. There needs to be some way to get whatever personnel and supplies come in, away from the LZ and to where they are needed. The aircraft need to also either be able to be refueled, or have sufficient onboard fuel for the return trip. Given where Vanuatu is, either the aircraft are able to refuel there, or are making trips fairly lightly loaded.

A C-130H with a 35,000 lb. payload has a range of ~2,400 km, which is about 100 km short of the distance between Auckland and Vanuatu, but that would provide enough range to get from Whenuapai to Brisbane, refuel, and then fly to Vanuatu. The problem even with this though, is that with all the aircraft flying in, while they can get supplies in faster, they cannot deliver the quantity a single medium to large sized vessel can bring in by sea. Perhaps more importantly, aircraft cannot deliver the quantity of vehicles and other, large pieces of kit which are likely needed.

Engineering vehicles are likely needed to re-open access to areas and restore needed infrastructure. Mobile/deployable medical units are probably needed to get medical aid to areas needed, and/or to augment or replace medical facilities taken offline by the tropical cyclone. Communications to and from Vanuatu has been severely damaged and deployable local and long-ranged communications can be shipped in. Refrigeration equipment for perishable food storage and disaster mortuary operations. All of these types of things are routinely needed after such a significant disaster.

The utility of a vessel like Canterbury, or one of the RAN amphibs, is that once in the area they can choose where to have their supplies landed, even if port facilities are unavailable. Afterwards, the vessel(s) can remain in the area and serve as a command centre, a comm centre, floating hospital or surgery, barracks for disaster personnel, and a floating heli-base. These are again all capabilities which are of great value. The landing craft can be used to ferry personnel and vehicles around to different parts of the country, including the smaller islands where RAAF and RNZAF airlifters may not be able to land.

It is unfortunate, but it is fairly well-known what sorts of things are needed in the aftermath of a tropical cyclone/typhoon/hurricane. It will be interesting to see if/when Canterbury becomes involved.

Vanuatu has an international airport that can (at least) handle 737 / A320 sized aircraft, so a C-130H or C-17A should have no issue there, so long as the airport hasn't been too badly affected by Pam, which plainly it hasn't given we know C130's and C-17's have landed there already.

Unless storm damaged, I doubt refuelling is an issue there, either.

 

[Nick underscore]

Vanuatu has an international airport that can (at least) handle 737 / A320 sized aircraft, so a C-130H or C-17A should have no issue there, so long as the airport hasn't been too badly affected by Pam, which plainly it hasn't given we know C130's and C-17's have landed there already.

Unless storm damaged, I doubt refuelling is an issue there, either.

Correct. Santo (another major island) can also pretty much handle the same as Vila

Update; RAAF have 2 x C-17, 1 x C-130J shuttling between Vila and Aus and an AP-3C is running imagery reconnaissance flights further north along the island chain. Another AP-3C Orion is in conducting the same tasking around the Solomon Islands.

EDIT; Looks like someone is also operating a C-27J out of Bauerfield (Port Vila) Int'l..

 

[Todjaeger]

Vanuatu has an international airport that can (at least) handle 737 / A320 sized aircraft, so a C-130H or C-17A should have no issue there, so long as the airport hasn't been too badly affected by Pam, which plainly it hasn't given we know C130's and C-17's have landed there already.

Unless storm damaged, I doubt refuelling is an issue there, either.

Based off prior experience, I think fuel is or will become an issue, unless properly managed. From what I have read, limited commercial service is supposed to be restored today, mostly to bring tourists out from Vanuatu I believe. Given the power grid is reported down, until some critical work is done, it could be difficult for Vanuatu to get access to what aviation fuel it does have. Then there is the difficulty in terms of resupplying fuel, given that port facilities are likely damaged, as is the road system, etc.

These are all problems which will have a negative impact upon the logistical train required for Vanuatu to recover.

 

[winnyfield]

EDIT; Looks like someone is also operating a C-27J out of Bauerfield (Port Vila) Int'l..

French CASA C-235
A French Army logistical transport CASA plane bound for Vanuatu... News Photo | Getty Images

 

[Nick underscore]

French CASA C-235
A French Army logistical transport CASA plane bound for Vanuatu... News Photo | Getty Images

Cheers winnyfield. I'm sure that's it

She looks fatter in this picture (last a/c on strip). http://australianaviation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/RAAF_AID_MAR_15_2015_DEFENCE.jpg

 

[ASSAIL]

Based off prior experience, I think fuel is or will become an issue, unless properly managed. From what I have read, limited commercial service is supposed to be restored today, mostly to bring tourists out from Vanuatu I believe. Given the power grid is reported down, until some critical work is done, it could be difficult for Vanuatu to get access to what aviation fuel it does have. Then there is the difficulty in terms of resupplying fuel, given that port facilities are likely damaged, as is the road system, etc.

These are all problems which will have a negative impact upon the logistical train required for Vanuatu to recover.

I'm almost sure I saw a KC 30A MRTT on the ground at Port Vila on the news tonight so that should help.

 

[40 deg south]

I'm almost sure I saw a KC 30A MRTT on the ground at Port Vila on the news tonight so that should help.

Three RNZAF C130 flights so far, one on Sunday and two yesterday. Plus a P-3 that did initial damage assessments of Tuvalu, then was tasked to Vanuatu.

Back to naval matters, Samoa's Pacific Patrol Boat was seen leaving Apia with the deck stacked high with relief supplies for Tuvalu. Their potential cargo load is tiny, but then, so is the population of Tuvalu.

You don't often see the PPBs mentioned as a HADR asset, but Samoa isn't letting that stop them.

 

[40 deg south]

French CASA C-235
A French Army logistical transport CASA plane bound for Vanuatu... News Photo | Getty Images

A C235 from Noumea is a very regular sight on the runway at Vila. No surprise to see them there post-cyclone.

Shame the A400M that was at Avalon isn't still in the neighborhood...

 

[StingrayOZ]

Three RNZAF C130 flights so far, one on Sunday and two yesterday. Plus a P-3 that did initial damage assessments of Tuvalu, then was tasked to Vanuatu.

Back to naval matters, Samoa's Pacific Patrol Boat was seen leaving Apia with the deck stacked high with relief supplies for Tuvalu. Their potential cargo load is tiny, but then, so is the population of Tuvalu.

You don't often see the PPBs mentioned as a HADR asset, but Samoa isn't letting that stop them.

Tuvalu has a problem because their airport can't accept C17 or C130's (I think a C130 could land, empty max). Anything else is going to take a long time to shuttle any supplies. Vanuatu has a large international airport that regularly takes commercial flights, Tuvalu and Kiribati are less lucky, and have a bigger problem moving things around within nation. Kiribati because things are so spaced out.

I imagine once the patrol boat is at Tuvalu it will be tasked with shipping supplies around Tuvalu and medical runs etc.

Of course a $600 million project to replace them is up in the air at the moment too.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/26524611/shipbuilders-to-bid-for-new-patrol-boats/. They will be steel hulled.

Given Au and NZ new sealift assets I would have thought they would have been keen to utilize them.