Door mounted mini-guns

[STURM]

Given that in the past decade, more and more users have opted for pintle mounted mini-guns on their helicopters; I'm very curious as to what advantages a mini-gun (apart from a higher rate of fire) would have over a GPMG or a HMG?

What is the main consideration driving many users to fit mini-guns to their helicopters to enable fire suppression? Would I be correct in assuming that one would get better range and accuracy with a GPMG or a HMG?

 

[bdique]

Given that in the past decade, more and more users have opted for pintle mounted mini-guns on their helicopters; I'm very curious as to what advantages a mini-gun (apart from a higher rate of fire) would have over a GPMG or a HMG?

What is the main consideration driving many users to fit mini-guns to their helicopters to enable fire suppression? Would I be correct in assuming that one would get better range and accuracy with a GPMG or a HMG?

Rate of fire would be key advantage with the minigun as compared to the GPMG, I don't think effective range/accuracy would be greatly affected. This might have advantages when trying to nail down fleeting targets as opposed to a GPMG that would better for area suppression.

For effective range, that should go to the HMG, by virtue of the fact that it fires a 50cal.

 

[gf0012-aust]

This might have advantages when trying to nail down fleeting targets as opposed to a GPMG that would better for area suppression.

spooky/spectre used miniguns specifically for area suppression ......

it all gets down to the mission set -

 

[ADMk2]

spooky/spectre used miniguns specifically for area suppression ......

it all gets down to the mission set -

And cost...

 

[gf0012-aust]

And cost...

true, esp in the current climate

 

[bdique]

spooky/spectre used miniguns specifically for area suppression ......

it all gets down to the mission set -

True. But there must have been a reason why the miniguns were swapped out. I suspect it has to do with bullet spread when operating at certain heights (i.e. effective range not far enough), would be grateful if someone could shed some light on that subject, thanks in advance!

 

[gf0012-aust]

True. But there must have been a reason why the miniguns were swapped out. I suspect it has to do with bullet spread when operating at certain heights (i.e. effective range not far enough), would be grateful if someone could shed some light on that subject, thanks in advance!

they haven't been replaced in those roles - ie still the primary rapid fire suppression weapon on those platforms

they also still use rapid fire high calibre guns for area effect

 

[bdique]

they haven't been replaced in those roles - ie still the primary rapid fire suppression weapon on those platforms

they also still use rapid fire high calibre guns for area effect

True, will agree that the role of area suppression remains for that weapon class.

 

[CB90]

Given that in the past decade, more and more users have opted for pintle mounted mini-guns on their helicopters; I'm very curious as to what advantages a mini-gun (apart from a higher rate of fire) would have over a GPMG or a HMG?

What is the main consideration driving many users to fit mini-guns to their helicopters to enable fire suppression? Would I be correct in assuming that one would get better range and accuracy with a GPMG or a HMG?

But when we say a minigun provides a higher rate of fire, we are talking about a pretty significant improvement. More barrels also means each barrel effectively heats much less. For example, a 3000rpm minigun only puts 500rpm through each barrel, as opposed to the ~800rpm you put through a GPMG like the M240.

You can also much more easily "walk in" fire due to the higher effective ROF, which is very important for a flex mount (like on helicopters or boats), where the operator has to do most of the work to keep a weapon on target.

 

[barney41]

Minigun fires 4X faster than M240 but has 9X the hit ratio per video.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWwP_LaOIiU

 

[shanes_world_05]

Minigun fires 4X faster than M240 but has 9X the hit ratio per video.
Future Weapons: Dillon M134 Gatling Gun - YouTube

There was a program (Think it was called triggers, american program) and compared humvee mounted M2HB and 7.62 minigun. The mingun apparently was alot easier to maintain on target due to the rotary action rather than a reciprocating recoil operated action of the M2HB. Thought about it and it made sense however the increased rate of fire caused issues with smoke discharge obscuring the target. And Larry Vickers did comparison between FN Mag and I think a Dillon mini gun and the agent/sales guy from Dillon quoted the effective range as 1000m versus the Mag's effective as 600m as quoted by Larry Vickers. I've been on the mag and thought you could get that out to 800m but I wont argue with someone like Vickers.

Anyway see how that shakes out to you guys.

 

[gf0012-aust]

not sure that I'd worry about smoke obscuring your view on a mini gun.

the ROF and tracer placement means that you can sight without difficulty - and sustained fire with a chain gun is a relative concept

 

[Feanor]

But when we say a minigun provides a higher rate of fire, we are talking about a pretty significant improvement. More barrels also means each barrel effectively heats much less. For example, a 3000rpm minigun only puts 500rpm through each barrel, as opposed to the ~800rpm you put through a GPMG like the M240.

M-240Bs have 550-650 cyclic, and they can take 60 secs of it before requiring a barrel change. I can only imagine the problems doing a barrel change on a helicopter door mounted gun.

There was a program (Think it was called triggers, american program) and compared humvee mounted M2HB and 7.62 minigun. The mingun apparently was alot easier to maintain on target due to the rotary action rather than a reciprocating recoil operated action of the M2HB. Thought about it and it made sense however the increased rate of fire caused issues with smoke discharge obscuring the target. And Larry Vickers did comparison between FN Mag and I think a Dillon mini gun and the agent/sales guy from Dillon quoted the effective range as 1000m versus the Mag's effective as 600m as quoted by Larry Vickers. I've been on the mag and thought you could get that out to 800m but I wont argue with someone like Vickers.

Anyway see how that shakes out to you guys.

Well with the .50 we're talking about different types of targets too, and even different RoE, given the penetrating power on those rounds. So there the trade off gets more complicated then between a 240 and a minigun.

 

[bdique]

M-240Bs have 550-650 cyclic, and they can take 60 secs of it before requiring a barrel change. I can only imagine the problems doing a barrel change on a helicopter door mounted gun.

Not sure about how other militaries use the M240/GPMG but IIRC I was taught to fire it in short bursts (1.5sec? Can't remember already), and you change as a precautionary measure after you've run through two boxes of ammo.

 

[CB90]

M-240Bs have 550-650 cyclic, and they can take 60 secs of it before requiring a barrel change. I can only imagine the problems doing a barrel change on a helicopter door mounted gun.

Usually helo mounted guns use higher ROF settings. I recall seeing numbers in the 700-900 range depending on version.

There was a program (Think it was called triggers, american program) and compared humvee mounted M2HB and 7.62 minigun. The mingun apparently was alot easier to maintain on target due to the rotary action rather than a reciprocating recoil operated action of the M2HB. Thought about it and it made sense however the increased rate of fire caused issues with smoke discharge obscuring the target. And Larry Vickers did comparison between FN Mag and I think a Dillon mini gun and the agent/sales guy from Dillon quoted the effective range as 1000m versus the Mag's effective as 600m as quoted by Larry Vickers. I've been on the mag and thought you could get that out to 800m but I wont argue with someone like Vickers.

Anyway see how that shakes out to you guys.

With a flex mount, like on a helo, the gunner is more of a limitation than the gun. And if you're moving at all, also applicable to a helo, gun gas discharge won't build up enough to obscure vision. But I've been on both (M240, not MAG), and I'd agree, the GAU-17 is much easier to hold on target.

 

[Feanor]

Not sure about how other militaries use the M240/GPMG but IIRC I was taught to fire it in short bursts (1.5sec? Can't remember already), and you change as a precautionary measure after you've run through two boxes of ammo.

Yeah. We used to say die motherf*cker die to measure burst length (6-8 round burst). But we change after a certain amount of time.

Usually helo mounted guns use higher ROF settings. I recall seeing numbers in the 700-900 range depending on version.

Well the helo mounted one should be the 240D or 240E, not the bravo. They have different cyclic rates, or should at least. I know the golf has three settings on the gas regulator plug, but the problem was that it would cause additional carbon buildup so on the bravo they only have one ROF setting for cyclic.

 

[shanes_world_05]

Yeah. We used to say die motherf*cker die to measure burst length (6-8 round burst). But we change after a certain amount of time.



Well the helo mounted one should be the 240D or 240E, not the bravo. They have different cyclic rates, or should at least. I know the golf has three settings on the gas regulator plug, but the problem was that it would cause additional carbon buildup so on the bravo they only have one ROF setting for cyclic.

Yeah we used to say something similiar but the Mag had something like 54 or 64 gas settings so you could wind it right up to something near 1000 rnds (never did it myself) down to I think 600 (more me). I remember hearing mag's or gimpy's that had been wound right up and then seeing the section have to clean it the next day. Takes the fun out of it.

We got the 7.62 Minimi or C9 or LSW depending on what you want to call it and the cyclic rate is fixed but still a healthy 850 ish. Love hearing them singing away in Urban training. The pressure build up in a small room is something spiritual.

CB90 can't even imagine what a minigun must be like and glad that the only ones who have them won't be using them on me.

 

[Gremlin29]

The advantage of a minigun is volume of fire. Aircraft mission sets requiring single ship operation would be the most obvious candidates. That said, the disadvantage is fleet costs, weight, maintenance and supply train issues to name a few obvious ones. Understand that door guns are self defense weapons in a military context, truly little more than noise makers.

 

[STURM]

A pic (courtesy of malaysiandefence.com) showing what appears to be a mounting for a mini-gun. From the pic the gunner doesn't have a very comfortable position to operate the gun and I'm not sure if any other A-109 users have done the same. Following combat ops mounted against Filipino gunmen in 2013 it was decided to arm the A-109s for suppressive fire (previously Alo 3s with 20mm Mausers were used against the communists). Rather than a GPMG someone decided on a mini-gun to arm the army's A-109s.

 

[winnyfield]

USMC Huey M240D night shoot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvFRZvrK6Kw
Note the glowing barrel.

USMC Huey minigun night shoot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vnrcsQqspA
Note the lack of 'controlled burst' from the minigun.