The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[RobWilliams]

In some ways, both.

HMS Queen Elizabeth has 'electronic warfare' capabilities and AFAIK there's extremely little in terms of details about (and rightly so), but I was referring to the usual soft kill countermeasures usually found on RN ships.

S2170 torpedo defence systems, Sea Gnat, Outfit DLH active decoys, stuff like that.

There's a lot of RN kit out there in terms of countermeasures, I'm extremely confident that a significant majority - if not all - of those systems are found on the Queen Elizabeth class.

 

[Blackshoe]

Nope, no missiles of any kind.

3 Phalanx 1b, 4 x DS30M automated 30mm guns and assorted miniguns and - probably - GPMGs somewhere.

Interesting that the Brits have gone (and stuck) with Phalanx vice Goalkeeper. Any insight onto what made the decision?

 

[rnrp]

Interesting that the Brits have gone (and stuck) with Phalanx vice Goalkeeper. Any insight onto what made the decision?

I believe goalkeeper is being retired as only Bulwark has the last two operational sets in the fleet. Also phalanx doesn't affect deck penetration in the same way that goalkeeper does.
Someone out there will have the info on goalkeepers demise

 

[RobWilliams]

Interesting that the Brits have gone (and stuck) with Phalanx vice Goalkeeper. Any insight onto what made the decision?

rnrp's got it.

Recently, Goalkeeper used to be on Albion/Bulwark/Illustrious/4 x Type 22 frigates. (Ark Royal had Phalanx). That was a lot of systems, but the 2010 SDSR binned the Type 22s, laid up an LPD and brought forward the OSD of Illustrious.

This means that right at this minute we've only got Bulwark armed with a pair of Goalkeeper systems. Add in the fact that Phalanx is a much easier system to install, probably ending up being cheaper to maintain (due to quantity), it makes sense.

Goalkeeper will be gone next year IIRC, presumably the intent is to replace Goalkeeper with Phalanx on whichever LPD is active.

Oh yeah, the ease of installation of Phalanx means the MOD can buy fewer systems but shift them around to the active units so those in maintenance/refit have their CIWS added into the pool and mounted to those heading out on a deployment.

 

[RobWilliams]

Good review of the 2014 NAO report by the author of UK Armed Forces Commentary.

UK Armed Forces Commentary

I'd highly recommend reading the article in its entirety but i'll pick out a few RN pieces.

• The report confirms that the Astute class has demonstrated the Top Speed requirement as of March 2014. Funding has been secured for a third dry deck shelter as well as the Swordfish torpedo upgrade and Astute class CSP.
• Martlet and Sea Venom due to be in service by October 2020 implying a 2 year gap following the loss of Lynx/Sea Skua in 2018
• QEC 'not fully funded to carry out the helicopter carrying role in littoral maneuver' - basically, there's a few adaptations which need to be made from a fixed wing carrier to acting as an LPH which haven't been funded yet.
• MARS SSS is on the whiteboard but not in the core budget yet, the blocks for the first Tide class tanker are already 90% complete and work has begun on the second.

Couple of great news points there, that the Astute class speed issues appear to have been solved with either Astute of Ambush demonstrating 30+ knots.

Heli-launched AShM gap isn't great, in the 2018-2020 gap the F-35 won't be able to do much in that area.

Great work on the Tide class tankers, really great work.

The thing with the QEC is to do with funding Chinook/Apache qualification, studies for increasing 6 spots up to 10 spots, clearances for embarked forces/helicopters ammunition stowage etc.

 

[spsun100001]

Couple of great news points there, that the Astute class speed issues appear to have been solved with either Astute of Ambush demonstrating 30+ knots.
.

If that's right then it's excellent news Rob. Are we certain though that what has been demonstrated is meeting the original speed requirement of 30+ knots and not one subsequently revised to reflect the reduced speeds being reported?

 

[RobWilliams]

Well previous reports have been pretty blunt at outlining that the class either hadn't reached the top speed or that there was a risk to that being achieved for boats 1 - 3. Considering that I haven't yet read anywhere in the documents about the requirement being changed* then I'm inclined to believe it means it's designed top speed.

*itself not easy to do. The document still mentions that the SSN requirement is 8 boats.

 

[StobieWan]

CEC for the RN

I *thought* there was a main gate decision for CEC in 2015 but that seems to have been dropped at some stage since the last time I looked. Has this been binned completely?

EDIT: Idiot..yep, cancelled. in 2012. Ask and ye shall find I suppose

 

[ADMk2]

Interesting that the Brits have gone (and stuck) with Phalanx vice Goalkeeper. Any insight onto what made the decision?

As already mentioned, straightforward installation and removal / transfer between ships to allow fewer overall systems (ie: cheaper) that still provide a sufficient 'last ditch' CIWS capability.

 

[RobWilliams]

I *thought* there was a main gate decision for CEC in 2015 but that seems to have been dropped at some stage since the last time I looked. Has this been binned completely?

EDIT: Idiot..yep, cancelled. in 2012. Ask and ye shall find I suppose

Yeah, IIRC wasn't that the compromise for fewer Type 45's, that they'd have CEC?

Frankly it's a tragedy, imagine what a UK CBG properly networked via CEC could achieve. I'm particularly fond of the idea of ASaC Merlins providing targeting data to take advantage of Aster 30.

Speaking of sea control ships elsewhere though, I'm quite happy with the direction in which the RN appears to be going. Talk of 36 F-35Bs and 4 ASaC Merlins seems to be binned which, IMO, is good.

We know there's a requirement for 14 Merlins deployed onto the carrier (5 AEW + 9 ASW) and a requirement for 12 F-35Bs minimum. That's 26 cabs on a hull ready for 50 at full load.

Add in a second squadron of F-35Bs and we've got a pretty solid air component covering air defence, ASuW & ASW. Best part is that's still 12 slots shy of the maximum. Can mix and match that for a littoral manoeuvre package or enhanced strike packages.

 

[StobieWan]

F35 gets plugged into CEC shortly as well so that's a further opportunity lost. Real shame.

 

[RobWilliams]

Brilliant opportunity lost. However, our CBG wont be complete as an entity until 2020 at the earliest and probably later than that before significant numbers of F-35s are integrated.

Plenty of time to pick it up when we have a proper task group to deploy it.

Anyway, turns out that the build of Prince of Wales is a few weeks ahead of schedule.

Managing Director's Blog - January Update – Aircraft Carrier Alliance

In the next few months, the diesel generators and GTAs on QE will be turned on & the ship will start generating its own power rather than relying on shore supplies during the remainder of fitting out. Fitting out is scheduled to end by the end of the year IIRC.

Oh, and MARS is really coming along. There's a £15mn contract for A&P Falmouth to fit out the vessels with UK military equipment when they get here from South Korea.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/15m-defence-contract-for-ap-group-in-falmouth

First vessel will arrive there in December of this year with the remaining 3 vessels arriving at 6 monthly intervals.

 

[Systems Adict]

Oh, and MARS is really coming along. There's a £15mn contract for A&P Falmouth to fit out the vessels with UK military equipment when they get here from South Korea.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/15m-defence-contract-for-ap-group-in-falmouth

First vessel will arrive there in December of this year with the remaining 3 vessels arriving at 6 monthly intervals.

I just hope n pray that this doesn't turn into another Boondoggle, like so many previous experiments into commercial shipbuilding for the UK Govt. That said, I hope that the 'sub-contractor of choice' for the RFA can deliver.

I appreciate & understand that these vessels are 'chump-change' in comparison to other 'warship' programmes. I would hate to see a small company with a good reputation, go to the wall because they've under bid to get the work, or they get screwed with 'scope creep', as the new & improved armed forces & support structure try to do more, with less cash by adding a valuable asset / capability, to something they haven't allowed budget growth for...

But that will NEVER happen.....will it ??


SA

 

[Anixtu]

I would hate to see a small company with a good reputation, go to the wall because they've under bid to get the work, or they get screwed with 'scope creep', as the new & improved armed forces & support structure try to do more, with less cash by adding a valuable asset / capability, to something they haven't allowed budget growth for...

Very unlikely. This kind of thing is their bread and butter, A&P have an RFA cluster contract for LSD(A) and Argus. They might pick up the Tides too, on the back of this and depending on Cammell Laird's capacity and appetite.

 

[rnrp]

Very unlikely. This kind of thing is their bread and butter, A&P have an RFA cluster contract for LSD(A) and Argus. They might pick up the Tides too, on the back of this and depending on Cammell Laird's capacity and appetite.

Bang on, I see no reason for this to be over budget or delayed, this will be purely and simply fitting GFE ( comms & crypto and the like) to the class as they arrive in home waters. Nothing that we have not had to do before. What's more the yard are more than capable. It's all kit that the class require to be a member of a TG.

 

[Systems Adict]

Bang on, I see no reason for this to be over budget or delayed, this will be purely and simply fitting GFE ( comms & crypto and the like) to the class as they arrive in home waters. Nothing that we have not had to do before. What's more the yard are more than capable. It's all kit that the class require to be a member of a TG.

I take both your comments on board & agree whole-heartedly that A&P are capable enough. However, with more than 20 yrs in shipbuilding I know that nothing can be taken for granted when it comes to Govt contracts & scope creep.

All it needs is the MoD 'good-ideas-club' to stick their oar in, try & get particular things done in a particular order, or change something for something else & bang goes some of the budget in unplanned changes, labour costs, material cost & before you know it, you've missed a date & those very same guys who asked for a change, are kicking you mercilessly, asking why.

Wave Class & LSD(A)'s were full of it & all that happens is the contractor gets blamed.

 

[spsun100001]

Type 45 Harpoon and 'torpedoes'???

I went to see HMS Duncan come into the Tyne today (6/2/15). I can confirm that she has the rails in place for Harpoon although no canisters containing the missiles were embarked on them.

Strangely though between the Harpoon rails and the bridge on the port side (I didn't get to see to Starboard) there were two long fixed circular steel canisters attached to the deck facing over the side of the ship. I have seen all of the Type 45's and have not seen these on any other vessels.

They looked exactly like the fixed ASW torpedo tubes seen on the platforms either side of the bridge on the Type 23.

I am assuming that even though they looked like it they aren't actually ASW tubes as we would have heard that they were being fitted. Has anyone any idea what these are?

 

[davealders]

Queen elizabeth aircraft carried

The queen elizabeth class aircraft carriers can supposedly only take up to 40 aircraft, this confuses me as the nimitz class which allthough being bigger is capable of taking 80+ aircraft.
My question: can the queen elizabeth take more than 40 aircraft and if so, why will they only carry 40.

 

[RobWilliams]

Sounds like the DLF-3B decoy system, that's what the Type 23 has exposed as the torpedo tubes are built into the structure. You've gotta look real hard for the circular hatch which pops open and the torpedo launches out.

They're ASW decoys, you see 'em around the VLS on more modern Type 26 models.

I'm glad some progress is being made on Harpoon, initial reports were that they'd be fitted by the end of last year. Still, hopefully the modification is made to all ships and they move the 4 sets of Harpoon around.

 

[spsun100001]

Sounds like the DLF-3B decoy system, that's what the Type 23 has exposed as the torpedo tubes are built into the structure. You've gotta look real hard for the circular hatch which pops open and the torpedo launches out.

They're ASW decoys, you see 'em around the VLS on more modern Type 26 models.

I'm glad some progress is being made on Harpoon, initial reports were that they'd be fitted by the end of last year. Still, hopefully the modification is made to all ships and they move the 4 sets of Harpoon around.

Thanks for the info Rob. They do look exactly like the canisters on the platforms under the bridge on the Type 23. I google imaged DLF3-B and that certainly looks like what they are.

It's good to see Harpoon arriving. Far more important than the ASuW capability the missile gives is the huge uplift in ASW capability it provides by enabling T45's on independent operations to carry the Merlin whereas at the moment they have to rely on carrying Lynx so that they have limited ASuW capability through the Sea Skua embarked on the helicopter.

Once Wildcat replaces HM8 Lynx then the lack of any sonar buoys on the former helicopter would leave a T45 with it embarked hugely vulnerable in any environment where there might be an ASW threat such as the Gulf.