NZDF General discussion thread

[ngatimozart]

Best plane bribery can buy
Alleged bribery could explain the whole, absurd Austrian Typhoon debacle. It’s possible Vienna shelled out $2 billion for warplanes it doesn’t need because Eurofighter, the consortium that produces Typhoons, paid off key officials.

To be sure, Austria needs some warplanes. Most industrialized countries—isolated New Zealand is one exception—possess at least a few jet fighters for aerial self-protection, otherwise known as “air policing.”

But countries of Austria’s size, wealth and situation—nine or ten million people, a GDP of a few hundred billion dollars, no immediate military threat—tend to favor inexpensive fighters. The Czech Republic and Hungary each bought 14 copies of Sweden’s single-engine Gripen fighter, priced to move at just over $60 million apiece.
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/au...-these-high-performance-fighters-e24649385bf3

From War is Boring article about Austrias 15 Typhoons and the reasons they were acquired. Not the first time I've seen NZs axing of the ACF and lack of defence commitment mentioned in foreign defence media and texts.

Canada turned its back on the sea in this way after the First World War, and recovery was slow. If to this we add the sea blindness
of countries whose geographic circumstances are as ostentatiously maritime as, for example, New Zealand, it is clear that maritime geography is not an independent variable in the seapower equation. Instead, its effect, whether for good or ill, is determined by a country's perception, quite literally, of its place in the world.
p84 in Till, G: 2004, SEAPOWER A Guide for the Twenty-First Century, Frank Cass, London.

Sea blindness is something that NZ is very good at, ignoring the sea around us and what it means to us. We think of ourselves as a nation of sailors but the vast majority of us are blind to what the sea actually means to NZ Inc. It is something that our population and politicians are very good at and they ignore it at their and our peril, forgetting the lessons of WW2 and that our trade and national livelihood is dependant upon the sea.

 

[chis73]

DMRR cabinet papers

It doesn't seem to have come up, but has anyone else noticed the rather disturbing information recently published on the NZ MOD website - the cabinet papers pertaining to the DMRR in 2013. Well worth a read and quite shocking really in terms of the options being considered. It definitely shows the serious trouble Defence faces. The defence budget increase approved as a result of the DMRR is only enough to maintain the status quo with regard to equipment procurement. One wonders where exactly Gerry Brownlee expects the money for C-17s to come from? The other options considered were to eliminate the naval support forces (Endeavour, Manawanui & their replacements) and the 757s, with a second option of the frigates as well, reducing the navy to just the OPvs & IPVs (the cabinet asked for more information on that one). Perhaps this was some sort of bureaucratic willy-waving exercise in order to show NZDF exactly who was boss, but if this is the level of debate you really have to question the competency of the people making the decisions. As well as $4b in replacement equipment by 2029/30, defence infrastructure (real estate) also requires a major reinvestment.

Some interesting dates crop up:
C-130 replacement 2020/21
P-3 replacement 2023/24
Frigate replacement 2027/28

http://www.defence.govt.nz/reports-publications/dmrr-2013/contents.html

Chis73

 

[Reaver]

One wonders where exactly Gerry Brownlie expects the money for C-17s to come from?

Chis73

Chris,
The C-17 capital cost will come from the DCP allocation assigned to the Future Air Mobility Capability. The C-17 will satisy the Strategic componet of FAMC allowing the project team to focus on developing a business case for the Tactical component of FAMC.

 

[Reaver]

Weapons selected for evaluation phase of Individual Weapon Replacement Project

28 Jan 2015

In November 2014 the Ministry of Defence sought responses to a Request for Tender for the provision of contemporary Individual Weapons, necessary training, and associated support to the New Zealand Defence Force.

Following evaluation of the tenders received the Ministry of Defence advises that the following companies have been selected for the evaluation phase.

• Beretta New Zealand Limited
• Ceská zbrojovka a.s.
• Colt Canada Corporation
• FN HERSTAL
• STEYR MANNLICHER GmbH
• XTEK Limited (Sig Sauer)
• Heckler & Kock GmbH
• Lewis Machine & Tools Co Inc

The evaluations of these weapon systems will be undertaken from 2 March to 1 June 2015.

The above information has been released on the GET’s web site.
The NZDF point of contact for this project is:

CAPT Tony Hornbrook
DTelN: 347 7569, Tel: +64 4 527 5569
[email protected]

All queries related directly to the tender should be directed to the Ministry of Defence point of contact below:

Acquisition Division
Ministry of Defence
PO Box 12703
Molesworth Street
Wellington 6144
New Zealand
Phone: +64 4 496 0626
Fax: +64 4 496 0859
Email: [email protected]

 

[40 deg south]

Weapons selected for evaluation phase of Individual Weapon Replacement Project

28 Jan 2015

Following evaluation of the tenders received the Ministry of Defence advises that the following companies have been selected for the evaluation phase.

• Beretta New Zealand Limited
• Ceská zbrojovka a.s.
• Colt Canada Corporation
• FN HERSTAL
• STEYR MANNLICHER GmbH
• XTEK Limited (Sig Sauer)
• Heckler & Kock GmbH
• Lewis Machine & Tools Co Inc

Reaver

Great find, but where was it? I haven't noticed anything on the MoD site.
Looks like a impressively broad spread of North American and European suppliers.

Unless I'm mistaken, there is one glaring omission. The Australian plant that built the current Steyrs is now (I understand) owned by Thales of France. As such, I assume the modernised Steyr they have been developing (F88?) would be listed as a Thales product. No sign of them on the list, although Steyr itself is listed. Presumably Steyr Austria have also have an upgraded version of the AUG. From a 'defence-political' point of view, it would be interesting if they have shortlisted the Austrian version and snubbed the Australian one.

 

[kiwi in exile]

IW replacement

From the list of shortlisted supplies you can make a pretty educated guess about the platforms that may be trialled.
The Colt Canada, LMT and H&K rifles will likely be AR style platforms.
Re the Thales F88, I have read that Thales Australia has been approached in the past by NZDF but their tender price was too expensive.

NZDF has trialled/battle labed/played with FN SCAR in the past. Recent Navy Today issue also had pics of RNZN trialing FN M3M 50cal on Rotoiti- does anyone know any more about this?

 

[ngatimozart]

From the list of shortlisted supplies you can make a pretty educated guess about the platforms that may be trialled.
The Colt Canada, LMT and H&K rifles will likely be AR style platforms.
Re the Thales F88, I have read that Thales Australia has been approached in the past by NZDF but their tender price was too expensive.

NZDF has trialled/battle labed/played with FN SCAR in the past. Recent Navy Today issue also had pics of RNZN trialing FN M3M 50cal on Rotoiti- does anyone know any more about this?

The M3M is usually used in aircraft because of it's lighter barrel weight in comparison to that of the M2. Hence it cannot handle sustained rates of fire like the M2. One would presume that whilst the NZDF had their hands on M3Ms for trials that they would test them in other situations in order to ascertain what situations it could be utilised in other than aircraft. When I was in the RNZN we used hosing fire with the M2s rather than short bursts, but that was back in the 1990s and that was a new change in procedure then, so things may have changed again.

 

[40 deg south]

From the list of shortlisted supplies you can make a pretty educated guess about the platforms that may be trialled.
The Colt Canada, LMT and H&K rifles will likely be AR style platforms.
Re the Thales F88, I have read that Thales Australia has been approached in the past by NZDF but their tender price was too expensive.

NZDF has trialled/battle labed/played with FN SCAR in the past. Recent Navy Today issue also had pics of RNZN trialing FN M3M 50cal on Rotoiti- does anyone know any more about this?

Thanks kiwi. I should have guessed that finance is likely to be a deciding factor! Would this be the first time NZ and Australia have had different standard-issue rifles?

Ngati - agreed. NZDF wouldn't want the logistics burden of supporting two different 0.5 inch weapons, so if the air force needs a lighter weapon they would probably consider changing all three services over.

 

[ngatimozart]

Ngati - agreed. NZDF wouldn't want the logistics burden of supporting two different 0.5 inch weapons, so if the air force needs a lighter weapon they would probably consider changing all three services over.

It's not really that at all. It has to be horses for courses and in ground use the .50 cal is a HMG support weapon laying down supporting fire so it would be required to be able to provide continuous fire which is hard on barrels hence the HB (heavy barrel) in the gun definition .50 Cal HBMG. FN also manufacture the M2M .50 Cal which is also their licence built variant of the ubiquitous Browning M2 .50 Cal HBMG. The only real difference between the M2M and the M3M would be the barrels.

 

[buglerbilly]

The real difference is rate of fire..............

485–635 rounds/min (M2HB)
750–850 rounds/min (AN/M2)
1,200 rounds/min (AN/M3)

The latter two are the aerial/naval warfare versions, hence the increased rate of fire.........the Royal Navy commonly uses the M3M as their Lynx door gun along with a Designated Marksman/Sniper using a hand-held rifle of one kind or another.........predominantly on anti-piracy/anti-drugrunner patrols.

 

[Cadredave]

From the list of shortlisted supplies you can make a pretty educated guess about the platforms that may be trialled.
The Colt Canada, LMT and H&K rifles will likely be AR style platforms.
Re the Thales F88, I have read that Thales Australia has been approached in the past by NZDF but their tender price was too expensive.

NZDF has trialled/battle labed/played with FN SCAR in the past. Recent Navy Today issue also had pics of RNZN trialing FN M3M 50cal on Rotoiti- does anyone know any more about this?

A Basic list of Rifles that meet the RFT:

Beretta - ARX-160 5.56mm
CZ – CZUB 5.56mm
FN - FN SCAR: Mk 16
Colt Canada - C7A1 C7A2
Steyr – A3
H&K – 417 or M27
LMT - LMT CQB MRP Defender
SIG – Sig 550

By no means is this the list as set out by the NZDF but is my educated best guess, NZ Army trailed the Mk17 or SCAR H version for the DMR trial, put a few rounds through it unfortunately kept getting my thumb hit by the reciprocating cocking handle - (for US members charging Handle). No biggie but sore at the end of the day the LMT out shot the lot absolutely a beautiful rifle.

CD

 

[40 deg south]

By no means is this the list as set out by the NZDF but is my educated best guess, NZ Army trailed the Mk17 or SCAR H version for the DMR trial, put a few rounds through it unfortunately kept getting my thumb hit by the reciprocating cocking handle - (for US members charging Handle). No biggie but sore at the end of the day the LMT out shot the lot absolutely a beautiful rifle.
CD

CD
Very informative thanks.

Can you advise who manufactured the M4-type weapons currently used in limited numbers by NZDF, as currently shown in Chief of Army's twitter header?

If the users are happy and the price not too steep, I wonder if familiarity would give them the inside running?

 

[John Fedup]

A Basic list of Rifles that meet the RFT:

Beretta - ARX-160 5.56mm
CZ – CZUB 5.56mm
FN - FN SCAR: Mk 16
Colt Canada - C7A1 C7A2
Steyr – A3
H&K – 417 or M27
LMT - LMT CQB MRP Defender
SIG – Sig 550

By no means is this the list as set out by the NZDF but is my educated best guess, NZ Army trailed the Mk17 or SCAR H version for the DMR trial, put a few rounds through it unfortunately kept getting my thumb hit by the reciprocating cocking handle - (for US members charging Handle). No biggie but sore at the end of the day the LMT out shot the lot absolutely a beautiful rifle.

CD

The ARX-160 is interesting as it features ejection from the right or left. Don't think it has been exported outside Italy however.

 

[Cadredave]

CD
Very informative thanks.

Can you advise who manufactured the M4-type weapons currently used in limited numbers by NZDF, as currently shown in Chief of Army's twitter header?

If the users are happy and the price not too steep, I wonder if familiarity would give them the inside running?

Colt M4 brought many moons ago for the specials only, rest of the Army are not familiar with the M4 except those like me who have used them back in the late 80's or those deployed to Afghan who had the chance to have a shoot with them thanks to the US Army pers based with the PRT.

 

[shanes_world_05]

Do you have any preference from the list above?
And can they survive zone 1?
Also heard dirty rumour that we are going the way of glock for the sig replacement? Any truth to that to your knowledge?

 

[Cadredave]

Do you have any preference from the list above?
And can they survive zone 1?
Also heard dirty rumour that we are going the way of glock for the sig replacement? Any truth to that to your knowledge?

I've got no preference at all Shane AR or bullpup, been through so many different rifles in my time for me as long as it is easy to use, take care off and now has open architecture it be all good - if we did go a AR type wouldn't surprise me if LMT is in their some where the DM rifle is just so sweet.

Easy to train with shoot well even for novices accepts all current & future sight systems I just love it, I see the young Infantry privates using it makes me wish I could turn back the clock oh well cant so will teach them how to employ it instead.

CD

CD

 

[Volkodav]

I've got no preference at all Shane AR or bullpup, been through so many different rifles in my time for me as long as it is easy to use, take care off and now has open architecture it be all good - if we did go a AR type wouldn't surprise me if LMT is in their some where the DM rifle is just so sweet.

Easy to train with shoot well even for novices accepts all current & future sight systems I just love it, I see the young Infantry privates using it makes me wish I could turn back the clock oh well cant so will teach them how to employ it instead.

CD

CD

What was the army using when you joined? Martini Henrys or had they reequipped with Lee Metfords by then?

 

[Cadredave]

What was the army using when you joined? Martini Henrys or had they reequipped with Lee Metfords by then?

Good one Volk,
L1A1 SLR, M16A1/M203, L4A1 Bren/L7A2 GPMG & QAMR used the Sterling 9mm came back from a 2 year posting in Singapore got thrown a Steyr got told to read up on it and would be tested in 1 hour on my pre JNCO cse.

CD

 

[Volkodav]

Good one Volk,
L1A1 SLR, M16A1/M203, L4A1 Bren/L7A2 GPMG & QAMR used the Sterling 9mm came back from a 2 year posting in Singapore got thrown a Steyr got told to read up on it and would be tested in 1 hour on my pre JNCO cse.

CD

Thought you'd like it. Pretty much the same as when I joined in the early 90s, F1 SMG instead of Sterling and while there were still Brens about (the RAR were hoarding them) the mainstay was the M-60.

The sight reticle on my Steyr came loose at the start of my qualification shoot and I had to finish it using the iron sights.

 

[Zero Alpha]

Mcda

Interesting example of some of the cost/benefit analysis work NZDF has done in developing policy options for government here