Royal New Zealand Air Force

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Why are people discussing CH47s?
I realise in many ways they would be a good capability for NZ especially as JATF and operating in austere pacific HADR scenarios. But if we went down this road some might see it as an admission we backed the wrong horse re the NH90s. And what about the push for fewer platform types and away from several small fleets? The NH90s have increased our vertical lift capabilities significantly. While I'm not an expert I doubt that they are inadequate for what we need.
No you are incorrect. it's different horses for different courses. For example you can move a squad in a NH90 but a chook would be an overkill for such a mission. The chook is a heavy lift helo where the NH90 is medium lift. However I agree uninformed outsiders such as pollies and the great hairy unwashed could reach the conclusion you suggest.
 
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kiwi in exile

Active Member
I think most would under estimate the lift requirments of the NZDF and it's contribution to the Greater Pacfic region
True. But the Chinook discussion seems to be a little out of the blue from my POV. Lots of things would be nice/good to have (people love ton b***ch about the ACF) but I'm not sure that heavy vertical airlift is needed at this stage or in the forseeable future by NZDF. I can understand the need for C17s, A400s , C27/casas, and even a few more NH90s.

Chinooks quoted range figures are impressive (dunno if thats empty or full) but a fixed wing equivalent (C27)has better speed.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
True. But the Chinook discussion seems to be a little out of the blue from my POV. Lots of things would be nice/good to have (people love ton b***ch about the ACF) but I'm not sure that heavy vertical airlift is needed at this stage or in the forseeable future by NZDF. I can understand the need for C17s, A400s , C27/casas, and even a few more NH90s.

Chinooks quoted range figures are impressive (dunno if thats empty or full) but a fixed wing equivalent (C27)has better speed.
Yes but the a fixed wing can't do things a rotary wing can and vice versa. Hence it's swings and roundabouts. The point I think about the whole discussion is to look at the NZDF AMC (Air Mobility Capability) as a logistical system that comprises of a series of platforms. It's how those platforms or subsystems will interact and work within the whole system that is the overall objective within an authorised budget.

Just to throw something else into the mix how about a 2 x C17, 5 x KC390 and a CH47F mix. I have given thought to the KHI C2 but they haven't sorted out the issues with their rare door yet and Embraer have far more experience in aircraft manufacture and support.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Just because we have been flying loads in the C-130 for the past 50 years does not mean it is an efficient use of Strategic Airlift. The NZDF now has a number of oversized loads (LAV, MHOV, NH90, MTOC, GCS etc) that the C-130 cannot move. C-17s provide the options for moving a greater number and variety of loads in different configurations for a number of different agencies. Where it might not have been cost effective to fly loads in the C-130 it may become so when using the C-17 thus providing greater utility to the Government, Military Allies and other countries.



C-17s have been regularly operating out of Whenuapai & Ohakea for the past 10 years with no refuling problems. As an aside the RNZAF fleet of tankers are being replaced under the LTCP project



You are right we do not "borrow" a aircraft, we "task" an aircraft from another nation to meet our requirements e.g. fly a waterplant up to the Islands for our MFAT. This is being done today by JFHQ and will be expanded on as part of the C-17 Introduction into Service



The C-130 life extension allowed the A/C to make its 2017 (stretched out to 2020) Life of Type out of service date, the benefits of the life extension are rapidly running out as we get closer to this date. If we wait much longer the C-17 option disappears and we may find ourselves stuck with the A400 which may not be the optimum platform for the NZDF.



This is what the Tactical aircraft (C295/C27J) is for, you would not send a platoon to the Solomons in either a C-17 or a A400. You would put the 50-60 soldiers into the RNZAF C-17, stop off in Townsville and pick up the 100 ADF soldiers attending the excercise and carry on to Singapore thus carrying out tasking for the ADF


Look I dont want to be seen as not hearing your concerns but anyone can come up with reasons not to do something and for every negititive around the C-17 purchase there is a positive. Yes it will mean a change to the way the NZDF/RNZAF does business but that is nothing to be worried about, it should be something to celebrate.
Im an definately not saying C130 is an efficient use of strategic resources I am just stating that in our case neither is C17 nesscessarily especially in such small numbers requireing so much outlay.

I have been hearing about AF tanker replacement for years and the excuse has always been there is no spare money, has this changed? Don't assume the LTCP is replacing every vehicle in the NZDF, army are getting new tankers as this has already been approved and more importantly funded. Any new tankers will more than likely come out of the aircraft budget as support equipment, again diminishing the total left available as aircraft tankers are not cheap.

Yes we have been refuelling C17 for years but they do not fly here with empty tanks and are just that, visiting, therefore not constantly requireing top ups which actually takes planning to support on top of daily operations. The problem would not be age and state of said tankers but more number available and volume of fuel required. RNZAF bases are not currently set up to handle such volumes routinely, they could be but again it all costs.

Yes we can task allied aircraft but that is all determined by availability, if it was such a sure thing then this talk of needing our own organic C17 would be moot. Sharing AC works fine when we are all going to the same party, as does happen now, but with our differing foreign policies this will not always be the case therefore we need to think of our own needs first and foremost, co-operation is just a bonus at the end of the day.

We have had large items of kit for decades, this is not new but seriously how often do we need to surge them quickly? I can count the number of times in my lifetime on one hand therefore is it really as big of a problem as made out to be? NZLAV only just deployed on ops for the first time in recent years and how long have we had them?

The only problem I have with sinking so much resources into 2 C17, whilst clearly amazing aircraft, is numbers available and fat left in the lard for the smaller tactical lifters which I see for us as just as if not more important for our actual day to day operations. For every positive I can also see a negative, just depends what side of the fence you are looking at it from I guess.

In the end funding, despite what some on here seem to think is finite and not going to get any bigger any time soon (would not be surprised if was sneakily trimmed TBH) so we should use it wisely for the long term good to cover most contingencies as possible efficiently and economically otherwise we could find ourselves caught out in the future.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Regarding all the discussion about NZDF airlift, there do seem to be a number of different points that either need to be made, or perhaps have people reminded or/reinforced.

One of the first has often been called, "the tyranny of distance," that impacts NZDF and NZG operations as a whole. Some of the airlift (kit, goods and/or personnel) missions can have a very long way to fly, to get to their destination.

There is also a paucity of available runways in many areas of interest to NZ.

Between the two, this means that some long-ranged aircraft are required, that are also capable of operating out of some potentially substandard (i.e. not suitable for commercial aviation) LZ's. This also can mean that some large, high-cap aircraft might be mostly empty during a lift mission, because a small load needs to be transported a long distance. This last point is important, because IIRC there have been many cases where RAAF, USAF and RNZAF C-130 Hercules were flying at much less than max cap because their range was needed, not capacity.

In the case of NZ though, the ranges are sufficiently great in a number of instances where even the range of a C-130 would be insufficient. The same has also been found for the B757's in RNZAF service as well. From my recollection of the USAF C-130H factsheet, a fully loaded aircraft has insufficient range to reach mainland Australia from NZ...

Adding something like a C-17 or A400M into the max should increase the max distance that airlifts can be conducted without requiring refueling (either in-flight or on the ground), and depending on mission can also allow greater weight or out-sized cargoes to be moved. I would hazard a guess that in the last decade, NZ would have found such options useful a number of times for HADR, never mind military operations.

The situation has been described as needing tactical airlift at strategic distances.

NZ also needs something for the more "local" tactical airlift missions. What needs to be estimated is what sort of airlift loads (in terms of size and weight) NZ needs moved over what distances, and how often.

There is no question that something with greater legs than a C-130 or similar is required to meet the strategic airlift which is currently being met, sort of, by the B757's. What is IMO question is just how much smaller and/or shorter-ranged can the RNZAF go below a C-130 for the tactical airlift component.

There is also the question of numbers required to meet potential concurrent operational reqs alongside maintenance and training. So far NZ has been operating with 2 strategic and 5 tactical, but due to maintenance and equipment failures, there have been missions cancelled due to a lack of available airlift. The Thai coup springs to mind, where the one (yes, 1!) C-130 that was "available" for operations had to return to base due to an onboard equipment failure when it had been tasked to fly to Thailand to transport Kiwis back to NZ.

As for adding in a Chinook capability... I personally would prefer CH-53 myself, but I doubt that Gov't would spring for any heavy rotary-airlift. As long as NZ sticks with the 105 mm howitzer that should be somewhat acceptable. If they are all replaced with M777 lightweight 155 mm guns though, the NH-90 lacks sufficient lift capacity to move a gun and then NZ would really need something larger, or only ever plan on towing guns. I suspect as well that the NH-90 will also be found to have problems lifting some vehicles into or out of some AoO further down the track.

What I suggest people do, is look at what aircraft can meet the strategic and tactical airlift components, and when they are available and required.

-Cheers
 

Reaver

New Member
I have been hearing about AF tanker replacement for years and the excuse has always been there is no spare money, has this changed? Don't assume the LTCP is replacing every vehicle in the NZDF, army are getting new tankers as this has already been approved and more importantly funded. Any new tankers will more than likely come out of the aircraft budget as support equipment, again diminishing the total left available as aircraft tankers are not cheap.
LTCP is funded to replace all NZDF tankers including those for the RNZAF. The project is scoped to replace NZDF assets not just single service (i.e. Army).

So any additional tankers required will not be funded from the FAMC project.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I have given thought to the KHI C2 but they haven't sorted out the issues with their rare door yet and Embraer have far more experience in aircraft manufacture and support.
The C-2 project has serious problems. Has yet to get an international airworthiness Cert. Has a large amount of unique components that will take a considerable time to get through US / EU requirements, which are necessary in the export sense. The project was conceived at a time when it was going to be a domestic only design like the C1 in which it was to replace as with the C130H - viz no Shinzo Abe 3 Arrows policy direction then and as such designing with US/EU air cert was not considered .

The costs estimates by same defence analysts estimate that the C-2 will end up being more expensive to both acquire and operate than the C-17. The door incident caused by ongoing pressurisation issues last June is the 3rd postponement since the tests began at Gifu in 2010. The aircraft evidently in some Japanese media reports indicate that it will only have an effective lift capability of 26 tonnes. Also that at 26 tonnes its fuel consumption degrades its range considerably. It has no rough field capability and would need a total redesign to get that. There are doubts that the C2 and the local industry would be able to contractually cope with the 30 years of ongoing support demanded. Defence critics and Academics in the security/defence/IR field in Japan describe it as a fiscal nightmare and would have severe impacts on Kawasaki Group. They call for it to be canned as they see it as a Yen bonfire and that the C-17 or A400M would better serve the Abe 3 Arrows strategic policy of regional defence integration with partner nations. In frankly desparation they want to now target possible sales in the commercial airlift market against the Eastern bloc aircraft and the C390. Gambatte! Good luck with that!
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Ok something from left field. What about the MV22 Osprey? Would fill the criteria that both the chooks would meet and that a C27/C295 would meet except in the latter case range. In an ideal world the NZG would buy both the chook and the twin turbo prop air lifter for the capabilities that they offer. However basically the Osprey would fill most of both platforms and may be cheaper in the long run having replaced two platforms with one. The price is bound to come down if the USN buy it for their COD. V-22 Perfect For COD: Navy Leaders « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary Just a thought.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Ok something from left field. What about the MV22 Osprey? Would fill the criteria that both the chooks would meet and that a C27/C295 would meet except in the latter case range. In an ideal world the NZG would buy both the chook and the twin turbo prop air lifter for the capabilities that they offer. However basically the Osprey would fill most of both platforms and may be cheaper in the long run having replaced two platforms with one. The price is bound to come down if the USN buy it for their COD. V-22 Perfect For COD: Navy Leaders « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary Just a thought.
I would put the MV22 in the aspirational box. To be pulled out and looked at sometime in the future. A post 2030 world.....
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Ok something from left field. What about the MV22 Osprey? Would fill the criteria that both the chooks would meet and that a C27/C295 would meet except in the latter case range. In an ideal world the NZG would buy both the chook and the twin turbo prop air lifter for the capabilities that they offer. However basically the Osprey would fill most of both platforms and may be cheaper in the long run having replaced two platforms with one. The price is bound to come down if the USN buy it for their COD. V-22 Perfect For COD: Navy Leaders « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary Just a thought.
The V-22 range is more limited than the two turbo props. Unlike the helicopter alternatives, the V-22 can't fit into C-17 or A400m. As for the price coming down with the USN's intention to replace its C-2 fleet with V-22s for COD, how many do they really need assuming 6 carriers are deployed? I can't see the number being high enough to alter the price in any significant way.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Ok something from left field. What about the MV22 Osprey? Would fill the criteria that both the chooks would meet and that a C27/C295 would meet except in the latter case range. In an ideal world the NZG would buy both the chook and the twin turbo prop air lifter for the capabilities that they offer. However basically the Osprey would fill most of both platforms and may be cheaper in the long run having replaced two platforms with one. The price is bound to come down if the USN buy it for their COD. V-22 Perfect For COD: Navy Leaders « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary Just a thought.
The price might come down to a degree for the varios V-22 models, but the current flyaway costs are approximately the same as new C-130J aircraft.

With that in mind, and the fact that no current or planned NZDF vessel or aircraft can lift a V-22 into an overseas AoO, and that the RNZAF has no organic in-flight refueling capability, then any V-22 would be for domestic use, or considerable adjustments would need to be made to the NZDF force structure. In addition to the funding required for a heavyweight rotary airlifter at tactical airlifter pricing.

If the decision was made to have V-22 act as the replacement for the C-130H in a tactical airlift role, it might work from a funding perspective. Not sure though whether or not the V-22 is large enough in terms of lift capacity (weight and volume), and range for NZDF tactical airlift. And of course the flow-on changes which would be required for the V-22 to be fielded away from NZ.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The price might come down to a degree for the varios V-22 models, but the current flyaway costs are approximately the same as new C-130J aircraft.

With that in mind, and the fact that no current or planned NZDF vessel or aircraft can lift a V-22 into an overseas AoO, and that the RNZAF has no organic in-flight refueling capability, then any V-22 would be for domestic use, or considerable adjustments would need to be made to the NZDF force structure. In addition to the funding required for a heavyweight rotary airlifter at tactical airlifter pricing.

If the decision was made to have V-22 act as the replacement for the C-130H in a tactical airlift role, it might work from a funding perspective. Not sure though whether or not the V-22 is large enough in terms of lift capacity (weight and volume), and range for NZDF tactical airlift. And of course the flow-on changes which would be required for the V-22 to be fielded away from NZ.
Given that the FAMC is studying the complete airlift capability then such factors as AAR would be looked at if the Osprey is seen as a viable option. One option could be a mix of for example 2 x C17, 5 x KC390 and 6 x MV22 with the KC390 having the tanker capability. Or there are buddy tank systems that can be used with external fuel tanks.

The Ospreys or the twin engined tactical lifters aren't replacements for the C130s but for the Andovers which were retired in the late 1990s and never replaced. So if you use the example here the C17 and KC390 would do strategic lifting whilst the Ospreys undertake both fixed wing tactical lifting and heavy rotary wing lifting. The KC390 has the ability to do both tactical and strategic lifting. One advantage I think the KC390 has is that 2 turbofans possibly would be cheaper to operate than 4 turboprops of a similar sized aircraft.

I agree that the RNZN is currently not set up to conducted seaborne transport of Ospreys. It could only lilleypad one on Canterbury and IIRC it can only lilleypad one chook as well, hence they would have to look at something in the future. But I've just thrown all this into the mix as possibilities for the FAMC because they are equally as valid as any other mentioned so far. We shouldn't just limit ourselves to the blindingly obvious or the traditional historical model that so far has dominated the RNZAF transport fleet discourse since WW2, because the FAMC is a component of the sea change in the NZDF force structure and operational thinking.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Ok something from left field. What about the MV22 Osprey? Would fill the criteria that both the chooks would meet and that a C27/C295 would meet except in the latter case range. In an ideal world the NZG would buy both the chook and the twin turbo prop air lifter for the capabilities that they offer. However basically the Osprey would fill most of both platforms and may be cheaper in the long run having replaced two platforms with one. The price is bound to come down if the USN buy it for their COD. V-22 Perfect For COD: Navy Leaders « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary Just a thought.


It certainly is out of the left field but one which would tic all the right boxes in regards to range and access in the Pacific nations it could have been a direct replacement for Caribou in the RAAF but for price and maintenance aspect (2-1 in favour of CH47F or C295 flyaway cost only)

I do like the thought behind it and does have its advantages but once again the numbers game change the equation
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Given that the FAMC is studying the complete airlift capability then such factors as AAR would be looked at if the Osprey is seen as a viable option. One option could be a mix of for example 2 x C17, 5 x KC390 and 6 x MV22 with the KC390 having the tanker capability. Or there are buddy tank systems that can be used with external fuel tanks.

The Ospreys or the twin engined tactical lifters aren't replacements for the C130s but for the Andovers which were retired in the late 1990s and never replaced. So if you use the example here the C17 and KC390 would do strategic lifting whilst the Ospreys undertake both fixed wing tactical lifting and heavy rotary wing lifting. The KC390 has the ability to do both tactical and strategic lifting. One advantage I think the KC390 has is that 2 turbofans possibly would be cheaper to operate than 4 turboprops of a similar sized aircraft.

I agree that the RNZN is currently not set up to conducted seaborne transport of Ospreys. It could only lilleypad one on Canterbury and IIRC it can only lilleypad one chook as well, hence they would have to look at something in the future. But I've just thrown all this into the mix as possibilities for the FAMC because they are equally as valid as any other mentioned so far. We shouldn't just limit ourselves to the blindingly obvious or the traditional historical model that so far has dominated the RNZAF transport fleet discourse since WW2, because the FAMC is a component of the sea change in the NZDF force structure and operational thinking.
In terms of lift capacity an Osprey might be a replacement for the Andover, but from a cost POV, they are a replacement for the C-130. IIRC the flyaway cost of a V-22 is ~USD$70 mil.

Also, I believe that there are not just space issues with operating an Osprey from a helipad, but also deck strength, since the MTOW of a V-22 is about 5,000kg greater than a Chinook. I have also heard that there have been issues with the heat coming from the Osprey engines impacting the helipad. Between these issues, it is enough to make me think that unless the vessel is specifically designed to support Ospreys landing, then they would not be able to safely operate without damaging the vessel.

The other issue of AAR is one that I have long felt would be a useful capability for the NZDF to have, both for domestic use as well as in support of allies or a coalition. However, until a commitment has been made to develop and maintain such a capability then IMO it would premature to make plans to acquire another capability which would require AAR in order to get to areas away from NZ. In fact, I would think that until the RNZAF gets an AAR capability up and available, it would be premature.

As for the potential of the KC-390... IMO they are not a 'real' option in terms of airlift. Until the aircraft is in production with a number of international flight certificates complete, there is the very real potential for the aircraft to not be available for service. Take a look at the development issues the A400M and C-1 have had in terms of time, cost overruns and capability. While Embraer has experience developing some smaller commercial airliners, the KC-390 is the first dedicated military airlifter. By extension Airbus has a vast amount of experience with designing and building airliners, yet the A400M still has been problematic.

And there is the matter that of NZ's likely partners during operations, none will be fielding the KC-390 in the foreseeable future.
 

da34

New Member
Could the future air transport capability be covered by the acquisition of 2 Boeing 17 Globemasters, 4 Lockheed Martin C-130J, 2-4 NH90, 4-6 Beech King Air 200 or 350 to cover light transport, multi-engine training and tier two maritime surveillance acquired new, and 2 leased Boeing 767 to cover VIP tasks, operated by the RNZAF, but not having RNZAF markings, with maintenance provided by a private operator. With the current NH90 fleet it is the bare minimum to cover current tasking. Hopefully the current government will increase the NH90 fleet. While it would be nice to have a heavy-lift helicopter such as the Chinook, historically New Zealand governments have being very parsimonious with defence spending always normally just purchasing the bare minimum.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
I'm never sure whether Seasprite news belongs in the Air Force or Navy threads?

Just saw this promotional video on the Kaman site. Appears dated in that it refers to first flight milestone rather than customer acceptance, but appears to have only gone up recently. Interesting in that they claim the Sprites will be able to fly 'into the 2030's'. Let's hope that isn't put to the test!

Readying the Seasprite SH-2GI Fleet

And here is a photo of NZDF's well-wrapped Christmas present, as previously posted by htbrst on the Navy forum.

https://twitter.com/jackrs55
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
One of the A400M biggest problems was the development of the new turboprop engines along with the software for them. The KC390 doesn't have this issue but it is a major undertaking for Embraer so it will be interesting to see how this aircraft pans out. If the launch is successful, it will be a real win for Embraer.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
One of the A400M biggest problems was the development of the new turboprop engines along with the software for them. The KC390 doesn't have this issue but it is a major undertaking for Embraer so it will be interesting to see how this aircraft pans out. If the launch is successful, it will be a real win for Embraer.
AFAIK the KC-390 will be using jet vs. prop engines. Depending the engine selected, controlling avionics, location on the airframe, etc there could still be developmental issues. Remember, Embraer has experience designing/building small to mid-sized commercial airliners. While the KC-390 is approximately the same size as the larger Embraer airliners, the MTOW is ~30 tonnes/60% greater than the largest Embraer airliner, The potential impact of that much lifting capacity, and the fact that it is a military airlifter which the potential cargo weight distribution being significantly different from aboard commercial aviation, means that there is definite potential for some "speed bumps" to be hit on the developmental runway...

Given that first flight has not AFAIK been achieved, I suspect it will be a number of years before certification is sorted and production commences. I would not be surprised if Embraer is not ready to receive orders for the KC-390 until after the RNZAF needs to at least start taking delivery of their C-130H replacements, and possibly even later, when the RNZAF starts to reach IOC with the replacement airlifter(s).

-Cheers
 
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