Iraqi Air Force and Air Defense

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Iraq got their batch of Pantsyr-S1 SAM/SPAAGs and Igla-S MANPADS. A silly purchase and a silly delivery when ISIS is a km out of Baghdad. MBTs, IFVs, and buckets of small arms and crew served weapons would do better. Though it seems quite a few exotic Russian weapons have made it into the war against ISIS.

bmpd -
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Iraq got their batch of Pantsyr-S1 SAM/SPAAGs and Igla-S MANPADS. A silly purchase and a silly delivery when ISIS is a km out of Baghdad. MBTs, IFVs, and buckets of small arms and crew served weapons would do better. Though it seems quite a few exotic Russian weapons have made it into the war against ISIS.

bmpd -
What they really need to do is hang onto them and don't let them fall into ISIL hands.
 

bdique

Member
Probably a badly-timed purchase/delivery. Well...on the bright side, at least IqAF is developing their capabilities regardless of the IS nuisance.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Iraqi pilots have formally started training on their F-16s which are currently located at an Air National Guard facility in Arizona.

Iraqi pilots begin F-16 training in USA - 1/2/2015 - Flight Global

The plan is for them to be joined by 6 more aircraft within 5 months. No indication as to if it's going to be a C/D split at this time.

Ramping up well, can't imagine Iraq is particularly pleased it played out this way, but they'll still get their fighters.
 

anan

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Iraqi pilots have formally started training on their F-16s which are currently located at an Air National Guard facility in Arizona.

Iraqi pilots begin F-16 training in USA - 1/2/2015 - Flight Global

The plan is for them to be joined by 6 more aircraft within 5 months. No indication as to if it's going to be a C/D split at this time.

Ramping up well, can't imagine Iraq is particularly pleased it played out this way, but they'll still get their fighters.
My understanding is that the IqAF (Iraqi Air Force) is in the process of acquiring the following fixed wing turbofan fighter attack aircraft:
-36 F-16IQ (slightly dumbed down 52 block) of which perhaps 6 are in the fight The New Iraqi Air Force: F-16IQ Block 52 Fighters
-24 KAI FA 50 multi-purpose fighter attack aircraft (are all of them fighter aircraft with no trainers?). Suspect only 2 are in the fight.
-12 L159 multi-purpose fighter attack aircraft (along with two trainer and one spare parts aircraft). Only a few are in the fight.
-20 Sukhoi Su-25 attack aircraft, all of which are in the fight.

Is there any visibility on whether the above is accurate (i.e. that the Iraqis are not planning to buy any more aircraft) and on how many of the above aircraft are currently in the fight?

In my view Iraq does not need more aircraft than the above. If Iraq insists on more turbofan fighter aircraft, in my view Iraq should buy additional KAI FA 50 to save on maintenance and operational costs. Iraq currently benefits from similarities in maintenance requirements and spares between KAI FA 50 and F-16 aircraft.

In my view Iraq should focus additional fixed wing procurement dollars on transportation aircraft, and turboprops (for training, recon and light attack).
 
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ADMk2

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My understanding is that the IqAF (Iraqi Air Force) is in the process of acquiring the following fixed wing turbofan fighter attack aircraft:
-36 F-16IQ (slightly dumbed down 52 block) of which perhaps 6 are in the fight The New Iraqi Air Force: F-16IQ Block 52 Fighters
-24 KAI FA 50 multi-purpose fighter attack aircraft (are all of them fighter aircraft with no trainers?). Suspect only 2 are in the fight.
-12 L159 multi-purpose fighter attack aircraft (along with two trainer and one spare parts aircraft). Only a few are in the fight.
-20 Sukhoi Su-25 attack aircraft, all of which are in the fight.

Is there any visibility on whether the above is accurate (i.e. that the Iraqis are not planning to buy any more aircraft) and on how many of the above aircraft are currently in the fight?

In my view Iraq does not need more aircraft that the above. If Iraq insists on more turbofan fighter aircraft, in my view Iraq should buy additional KAI FA 50 to save on maintenance and operational costs. Iraq currently benefits from similarities in maintenance requirements and spares between KAI FA 50 and F-16 aircraft.

In my view Iraq should focus additional fixed wing procurement dollars on transportation aircraft, and turboprops (for training, recon and light attack).
I believe that 11x F-16C/D models have now been delivered. Their operational staus is probably best guessed at 'uncertain' if that is what you mean by 'in the fight'? I suspect some operational sorties have been flown by now. Whether this is a regular occurrence or not is unknown to me.

How many are operational on a daily basis is going to be a fraction of this number, so not sure what your point is about that?
 

Vulcan

Member

Ranger25

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Staff member
The first Iraqi F-16 strikes were made in September last year, no idea how regularly they are conducting them these days however.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...for-first-time-in-raids-against-islamic-state
IMHO the Iraqi AF would be best fit with something like the Super Tucano or maybe some lend lease style USAF mothballed A-10s. They have a primary ground attack and CAS mission. These aircraft would be less costly per hour to fly and cheaper to maintain. Their adversaries have limited SAM capabilities so my thoughts tend toward lower end airframes. I think that's why the SU-25 is performing well, so maybe more SU-25s.
 
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Bonza

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IMHO the Iraqi AF would be best fit with something like the Super Tucano or maybe some lend lease style USAF mothballed A-10s. They have a primary ground attack and CAS mission. These aircraft would be less cost,y per hour to fly and cheaper to maintain. Their adversaries have limited SAM capabilities so my thoughts tend toward lower end airframes. I think that's why the SU-25 is performing well, so maybe more SU-25s.
They've already got inventory and experience with the SU-25, why would they want mothballed A-10s? The SU-25 will give them sufficient ground attack capability, it might not have the same toys as the A-10 but it's hardly toothless. And I reckon they'd be cheaper to fly and maintain given the existing experience base compared to half-shagged A-10 airframes...
 

anan

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  • #91
I believe that 11x F-16C/D models have now been delivered. Their operational staus is probably best guessed at 'uncertain' if that is what you mean by 'in the fight'? I suspect some operational sorties have been flown by now. Whether this is a regular occurrence or not is unknown to me.

How many are operational on a daily basis is going to be a fraction of this number, so not sure what your point is about that?
The question is how many aircraft are currently being used for close air support. How often they used for air strikes is not being asked because this is harder to determine.

The number of CAS aircraft in the fight affects how quickly Mosul is retaken.
 

anan

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They've already got inventory and experience with the SU-25, why would they want mothballed A-10s? The SU-25 will give them sufficient ground attack capability, it might not have the same toys as the A-10 but it's hardly toothless. And I reckon they'd be cheaper to fly and maintain given the existing experience base compared to half-shagged A-10 airframes...
Can Iraq purchase additional new Su-25s? In my view, Iraq doesn't need any more turbofan fixed wing multipurpose attack fighters. Light attack turboprops are far cheaper to operate per hour and relative to CAS provided.

Have has some difficulty looking up the latest on IqAF light attack turboprop airframes. Does anyone have visibility on this? My best information:
-armed Cessna AC-208 Caravan (only 4 left?)
-are any Pilatus PC-12 armed?
-unclear if Iraq has any other light attack turboprops

What skews would be best for the IqAF to buy? More armed Cessna AC-208 Caravans to save on maintenance costs?
 

Ranger25

Active Member
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They've already got inventory and experience with the SU-25, why would they want mothballed A-10s? The SU-25 will give them sufficient ground attack capability, it might not have the same toys as the A-10 but it's hardly toothless. And I reckon they'd be cheaper to fly and maintain given the existing experience base compared to half-shagged A-10 airframes...
Agreed Sir, my point was merely that their requirements are more CAS and Ground attack Vis a vie Air Dominance and the Su-25 style aircraft may be better suited than more F-16s. Although one could argue the F16 can do the same level of CAS but with the added Air to Air capabilities
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
They've already got inventory and experience with the SU-25, why would they want mothballed A-10s? The SU-25 will give them sufficient ground attack capability, it might not have the same toys as the A-10 but it's hardly toothless. And I reckon they'd be cheaper to fly and maintain given the existing experience base compared to half-shagged A-10 airframes...
Can Iraq purchase additional new Su-25s? In my view, Iraq doesn't need any more turbofan fixed wing multipurpose attack fighters. Light attack turboprops are far cheaper to operate per hour and relative to CAS provided.

Have has some difficulty looking up the latest on IqAF light attack turboprop airframes. Does anyone have visibility on this? My best information:
-armed Cessna AC-208 Caravan (only 4 left?)
-are any Pilatus PC-12 armed?
-unclear if Iraq has any other light attack turboprops

What skews would be best for the IqAF to buy? More armed Cessna AC-208 Caravans to save on maintenance costs?

Agreed, even a couple of older USAF soon to be retired AC130s would do well(longer loiter etc).
 

anan

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Agreed, even a couple of older USAF soon to be retired AC130s would do well(longer loiter etc).
I think AC130s would be ideal for Iraq. IqAF already operates 9 C130s and adding AC130s would add economies of scale to maintenance and operations. Wish Obama would donate some other AC130s to Iraq, and the Iraqis bought some new AC130s on their own dime. This would free up all of IqAF's soon to be 36 F16 IQ (block 52 class), 24 FA 50 for air defense, and give Iraq some autonomy from and leverage with respect to Iran's unelected dictator Supreme Leader Ayatollah Sayyed Khamenei.

How good are Iraq's 12 fighter attack aircraft skew L159s at air superiority? They are subsonic.
 

bdique

Member
They've already got inventory and experience with the SU-25, why would they want mothballed A-10s? The SU-25 will give them sufficient ground attack capability, it might not have the same toys as the A-10 but it's hardly toothless. And I reckon they'd be cheaper to fly and maintain given the existing experience base compared to half-shagged A-10 airframes...
On a related note, the IqAF is already operating Chinese UCAVs, how does that complement their ground attack aircraft? Trading payload for greater persistence and cheaper operating costs; can we understand UCAV operations in such a manner?
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
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On a related note, the IqAF is already operating Chinese UCAVs, how does that complement their ground attack aircraft? Trading payload for greater persistence and cheaper operating costs; can we understand UCAV operations in such a manner?
I don't know anything about any UCAVs, nor do I have any knowledge of IqAF conops etc. so my understanding would be extremely limited. I suspect however that calling operational and exported Chinese UAS a "UCAV" may be a little premature. The designations are increasingly murky I suppose, but I would expect UCAV to refer to a dedicated combat UAS, not a typical surveillance UAS with a few missiles stuck on. Anyway as I said, I don't have the knowledge to properly understand their unmanned operations.

I do think getting the real picture would involve more than just the equations of payload, persistence and operating costs. See GF's recent posts on UAS if you can track them down.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
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the CH-4B UAV is a chinese "copy" of the predator/reaper

UCAV's is more or less a redundant term now - modern militaries refer to unmanned assets as part of a broader system - so they tend to be lumped under the UAS acronym as they cover off a broad capability within platform types.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
the CH-4B UAV is a chinese "copy" of the predator/reaper

UCAV's is more or less a redundant term now - modern militaries refer to unmanned assets as part of a broader system - so they tend to be lumped under the UAS acronym as they cover off a broad capability within platform types.
Ah I see, cheers for that mate. I guess I haven't heard UCAV around the traps at all lately. Well, except the really enthusiastic traps...
 

bdique

Member
@gf, Bonza,

Thanks for the inputs, guess where I am the press tends to use the term UAV a lot, hence my assumption that term UCAV would be appropriate.

Yeah, come to think of it, given how these vehicles tend to come with multiple capabilities, the term UAS would make more sense.
 
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