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Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
Thing is, if they'd installed Mk41, they could have quad packed RAM block 2, and that'd be your anti surface and air sorted out to about 10km. Ditch the 1b entirely given it's a kind of "cross your fingers " approach vs sea skimming missiles, and you've got 30 and 25mm cannon vs BogHammers etc..ESSM block 2 is active so that'd slip in nicely for the future.

Just thinking out loud here.
Yes. I'm a bit surprised at the lack of a Mk 41, even a 16 cell as mentioned would have been a substantial upgrade.

Will be interesting to see if it mounts the NSM as the new system. If so I thought I read that Kongsberg also had a land attack variant. If so its interesting to think the SSC could have this added to its bag
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I imagine some of the weight saving will come from the switch to fixed as opposed to modular systems for much of what has been added. Going for SeaRam does seem to be a retrograde step as I would have thought RAM plus an active volume search radar, such as CEAFAR would have been the way to go.

Other possibilities that may be worth a thought for export would be CAMM and a 76mm Super Rapido with DART and Vulcano.
Tend to agree the weight has probably been saved my removing configerable bays (module slots) as you can have much simpler structure.

I suspect 76mm and other options have not been taken up because this will have the opposite effect due to deck penitration, struactural additions and the wieght of systems. This is only assumption mind you as I really don't have visibiltiy of this (as I assume is the case for most here)

It is still a pretty light weapons outfit, howeverm it fits the USN operational doctrine and still prpvides flexibility and fits in with capability of the US fleet as a whole. It certainly is not intended to be a replacement for a GP frigate (just putting that out there before we get the suggestion it is the panacea for all requirements).
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Disagree, there's still the element of module flexibility in the new SSC but there's just additional baseline capabilities being added.

  • Mk38s added
  • Upgraded countermeasure systems
  • Improved radar
  • Upgraded EW suite
  • Improved signals management
  • Uparmoured
  • OTH SSM
  • Freedom class getting SeaRAM to match Independence
  • Towed array

OTH SSM probably LRASM, but i've seen mock ups of NSM with box launchers in LCS models.
Having read the article and then the fact sheet I am a tad confused. The Article indicates in the text (not the images) that the OTH SSM will not be taken up while the images for Freedom and fact sheet indicate it will.

Must ahve missed something
 

FormerDirtDart

Well-Known Member
Having read the article and then the fact sheet I am a tad confused. The Article indicates in the text (not the images) that the OTH SSM will not be taken up while the images for Freedom and fact sheet indicate it will.

Must ahve missed something
Actually, the article specifically indicates that OTH SSM will be added.

"The two hulls will feature an unspecified 3D radar upgrade, an over-the-horizon surface to surface anti-ship missile, include a multifunction towed array sonar and displace less than the Flight 0 variants, according to information from the service." (5th para)
Up Gunned LCS Hulls Picked for Navy
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Actually, the article specifically indicates that OTH SSM will be added.

"The two hulls will feature an unspecified 3D radar upgrade, an over-the-horizon surface to surface anti-ship missile, include a multifunction towed array sonar and displace less than the Flight 0 variants, according to information from the service." (5th para)
Up Gunned LCS Hulls Picked for Navy
Got it, my bad. Thanks
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Enlightening reading the comments on the referenced story, not! So many uninformed armchair experts.

They rant against aluminium (or aluminum for our cousins across the Pacific) and lack of armament yet see the aging, obsolescent, almost defenceless (since the removal of their Mk-13 GMLS), aluminium superstructured FFG-7 as some sort of super frigate that can only be replaced by something approaching a Spanish F-100 AEGIS frigate.

Never let commonsense or facts get in the way of a good backwards looking rant.
 

FormerDirtDart

Well-Known Member
The FY 2015 National Defense Authorization Act settles a few questions for the Navy:

  • Initial funds allocated for refuel process of CVN-73, USS George Washington
  • An eleventh Joint High Speed Vessel is fully funded
  • Previously cancelled twelfth San Antonio-class LPD is partially funded
  • Boeing EA-18G production line will continue for at least one more year, with 15 additional aircraft funded

Navy Gains a Ship, 15 Growlers in Defense Bill | Defense News | defensenews.com
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The FY 2015 National Defense Authorization Act settles a few questions for the Navy:

  • Initial funds allocated for refuel process of CVN-73, USS George Washington
  • An eleventh Joint High Speed Vessel is fully funded
  • Previously cancelled twelfth San Antonio-class LPD is partially funded
  • Boeing EA-18G production line will continue for at least one more year, with 15 additional aircraft funded

Navy Gains a Ship, 15 Growlers in Defense Bill | Defense News | defensenews.com
Navy's request to decommissioning 7 x CCG's still denied and the Navy ordered to modernise them BUT only 2 per year. The poor old dears will be pretty long in the tooth by the time they all finally modernized. It doesn't seem smart use of the money which surely is better spent on new hulls.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Navy wanted to bin them for a reason - keeping them is pork-barrel politics I suspect. As you say, by the time hulls 6 and 7 get done, they'll be pretty ripe - the youngest of them is thirty years old right now.
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
Navy's request to decommissioning 7 x CCG's still denied and the Navy ordered to modernise them BUT only 2 per year. The poor old dears will be pretty long in the tooth by the time they all finally modernized. It doesn't seem smart use of the money which surely is better spent on new hulls.
Agreed but,
With the CG(X) cancelled, and Zumwalt production halted at two I don't believe there's a replacement plan for now other than building more DDG-51 flight IIIs.
 

Blackshoe

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Navy's request to decommissioning 7 x CCG's still denied and the Navy ordered to modernise them BUT only 2 per year. The poor old dears will be pretty long in the tooth by the time they all finally modernized. It doesn't seem smart use of the money which surely is better spent on new hulls.
Problem is that no hulls we're building will be able to replace the CG mission.

Maybe the DDG-1000 (and really, the answer is whatever will follow on from the DDG-1000 design, since the DDG-1000 is going to be nothing more than a test bed).

And we aren't going to be getting anything to do the job for probably 20 years (maybe 5-10 if DDG-51 FLT III ends up being the "new CG").
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
Problem is that no hulls we're building will be able to replace the CG mission.

Maybe the DDG-1000 (and really, the answer is whatever will follow on from the DDG-1000 design, since the DDG-1000 is going to be nothing more than a test bed).

And we aren't going to be getting anything to do the job for probably 20 years (maybe 5-10 if DDG-51 FLT III ends up being the "new CG").
Hear there was discussion of a DDG-51 IV to handle the role but the current administration cancelled the build
 
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AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Enlightening reading the comments on the referenced story, not! So many uninformed armchair experts.

They rant against aluminium (or aluminum for our cousins across the Pacific) and lack of armament yet see the aging, obsolescent, almost defenceless (since the removal of their Mk-13 GMLS), aluminium superstructured FFG-7 as some sort of super frigate that can only be replaced by something approaching a Spanish F-100 AEGIS frigate.

Never let commonsense or facts get in the way of a good backwards looking rant.
The armchairs will never be happy. The same criticisms are uttered toward every class since the 1970's to the point where you can scratch out "OHP" and write in "LCS". Problem with going the F-100 style route is when built in a US yard it is close to the price of a Burke, so why build a lesser ship for not much money?
I've been on LCS-1 and I came away impressed.

Agreed but,
With the CG(X) cancelled, and Zumwalt production halted at two I don't believe there's a replacement plan for now other than building more DDG-51 flight IIIs.
3 hulls actually.
Most importantly however the drive train development has been paid for and should be used in any future classes. The USN has wanted a fully electric drive train with massive power margins since the 80's.

Navy's request to decommissioning 7 x CCG's still denied and the Navy ordered to modernise them BUT only 2 per year. The poor old dears will be pretty long in the tooth by the time they all finally modernized. It doesn't seem smart use of the money which surely is better spent on new hulls.
It isn't a smart use of money. The Tico's have been rode hard and put away wet along with suffering about a decade of inadequate maintenance back during the Rummy years that never really got fixed until modernization.

The Navy wanted to bin them for a reason - keeping them is pork-barrel politics I suspect. As you say, by the time hulls 6 and 7 get done, they'll be pretty ripe - the youngest of them is thirty years old right now.
Look toward the congress critters from San Diego and Norfolk...

Capability does not matter for them. I have a friend who works in the mayors office for Jacksonville, Fl. They and their representatives screamed bloody murder when JFK went away, never mind the ship wasn't mission capable and a net drain on the budget.
 

barney41

Member
The Navy has plans for it's next Large Surface Combatant to appear in the 2030s. The New ship will likely showcase new tech already being tested/fielded eg. IPS, lasers, Railguns which would really be hard to shoehorn into a Burke-derived hull. Experience with the Zumwalts in the coming years should help inform whether a tumblehome design is adopted. I suspect it may be larger than DDG-1000 to accommodate a larger AMDR.

In Pursuit of the U.S. Navy's Next Surface Combatant - USNI News
 

Rimasta

Member
First off, they are planning to build three Zumwalt class vessels currently, not two. The USS Zumwalt (DDG-1000), the USS Michael Monsoor (DDG-1001), and the USS Lyndon B. Johnson (DDG-1002).

I thought this was a good article relating to the DDG-1000 hulls. It's concedes that yes, they are expensive, but only slighty more so than modernizing aging ships like the Tico's and the latest flight in the DDG-51 series. Its brings up a lot of interesting points. One noteworthy item is I think the underrated air defense capabilities of the DDG-1000 class, especially following the succesful use of the deployed laser weapon in the Persian Gulf.

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine....ingtheDDG1000DestroyerProgramWasaMistake.aspx

This was, I thought, a compelling article about how the U.S. Navy might be getting the entire air defense concept wrong. It does make some sense, given how much missiles are starting to cost for long range work like the late generation standard missiles. Most people forget too, in 1991, the U.S. was simply running out of Patriot missiles to shoot down scuds, they were firing then faster than the missiles could be manufactured and delivered overseas. The title is called, "47 seconds from Hell".

47 Seconds From Hell: A Challenge To Navy Doctrine « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

With these concepts in mind, I believe the Zumwalt's could operate as offensive assets in denied environments. The energy output that one of the vessels puts out could operate more than one laser I'm sure, and at a higher output meaning, more destructive/focused.

Then I'm also wondering, why not use the DD(X) hull for the next generation of cruisers? It's cheaper than thinking a of a whole new design, and the hull has room to play with. They are also about 50ft longer than a Tincondergo-class, and displace an EXTRA 6,000 tons. Perhaps the cruiser variant could use something other than dual railguns? High powered air defense lasers and extra VLS cells perhaps? All things considered, it seems to make sense thinking long term investment, the vessels need less crew to operate and would give the Navy an edge.

I believe they have a lot of potential to be game changers in battle and we should build more than three while the production line is hot.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Boeing to equip Navy's new P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft for high-altitude A

Boeing to equip Navy's new P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft for high-altitude ASW missions

another reason for why some of us wanted the Mk54 in 2007...... we could rely on an upgrade path for an inservice weapon

December 15, 2014
By John Keller
Editor

PATUXENT RIVER NAS, Md., 15 Dec. 2014. Surveillance aircraft experts at the Boeing Defense, Space & Security segment in Seattle are upgrading the U.S. Navy's new P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft to enable the long-range reconnaissance aircraft to perform anti-submarine warfare (ASW) missions from high altitudes.

Officials of the U.S. Naval Air Systems Command at Patuxent River Naval Air Station, Md., announced a $67.8 million contract to Boeing on Friday to integrate capabilities and training systems upgrades to the P-8A aircraft -- a variation of the Boeing 737-800 single-aisle passenger jetliner modified for maritime patrol and ASW.

Boeing engineers will upgrade the P-8A with high-altitude ASW weapons and sensors, as well as enable the aircraft to perform guided weapons in-flight target updates, retargeting, weapon hand-off, and bomb impact assessments over the Link-16 tactical radio network.

Among the upgrades Boeing will perform is to equip the P-8A aircraft with torpedoes that can be released from altitudes as high as 30,000 feet. These high-altitude torpedoes are Navy Mark 54 lightweight torpedoes with add-n kits that enable the weapons to glide through the air to attack enemy submarines from long ranges.

Last year the Navy authorized Boeing to start building the add-on kits as part of the High Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare Weapon Capability (HAAWC) Air Launch Accessory (ALA) program. Aircraft normally release conventional torpedoes from very low altitudes or with small parachutes to ease the torpedoes into the water gently.

The HAAWC ALA turns the Raytheon Mark 54 torpedo into a glide weapon that the P-8A aircraft can release from high altitudes. As the flying torpedo reaches the water, it jettisons wings and other air-control surfaces and takes on its original role as a smart torpedo that can detect, track, and attack enemy submarines autonomously.

Ultimately, the Navy plans to buy 108 P-8A aircraft from Boeing to replace the service’s fleet of 196 P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft, which are approaching the end of operational life. The P-3 is a version of the Lockheed Martin Electra four-engine turboprop aircraft.

Last summer Boeing delivered its 15th P-8A Poseidon to Navy Patrol Squadron 16 at the Jacksonville Naval Air Station, Fla. P-8A squadrons and air crews will be based at Jacksonville NAS and at Whidbey Island NAS, Wash., where the squadrons will train for extended deployments.

Navy officials plan to use the P-8A in tandem with the Northrop Grumman RQ-4N Triton Broad Area Maritime Surveillance (BAMS) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) -- a maritime-patrol version of the Global Hawk long-range surveillance UAV.
Related: Obsolete before deployment: Boeing to update P-8A electronic warfare components to stave-off obsolescence

One or more Triton UAV can detect and track hostile submarines, and the P-8A can launch torpedo attacks from high altitudes. Plans call for the P-8A to operate from high altitudes to save fuel, although the aircraft is hardened to operate at low altitudes.

Boeing is building the Poseidon aircraft at its factory in Renton, Wash. The 737 fuselage and tail sections will be built by Spirit AeroSystems in Wichita, Kan., then transferred to Renton where all structural features are incorporated in sequence during fabrication and assembly.

The P-8A’s flight management system and the stores management system have been developed by GE Aviation Systems in Grand Rapids, Mich. (formerly Smiths Aerospace). The cabin has as many as seven operator consoles.
Related: Navy prepares to ramp-up production of P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol jets for U.S. and Australia

The Poseidon’s MX-20HD digital electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) multi-spectral sensor turrets come from L-3 Communications Wescam in Burlington, Ontario. The MX-20HD is gyro-stabilized and can have as many as seven sensors, including infrared, CCDTV, image intensifier, laser rangefinder, and laser illuminator.

The aircraft has the upgraded APS-137D(V)5 maritime surveillance radar and signals intelligence (SIGINT) system from the Raytheon Co. Space and Airborne Systems (SAS) segment in McKinney, Texas.

The APS-137D(V)5 radar, which is installed on the P-8’s enlarged nose fairing, provides synthetic aperture radar (SAR) for imaging stationary ships and small vessels, coastal and overland surveillance, and high-resolution imaging synthetic aperture radar (ISAR) for imaging surfaced submarines and fast surface vessels operating in coastal waters.

The P-8A will have the CAE Inc. advanced integrated magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) system. The Navy plans to arm the P-8A with the MK 54 torpedo.
On this contract Boeing will do the work in Seattle; St. Louis; and Patuxent River, Md., and should be finished by December 2017. For more information contact Boeing online at Boeing: Defense, Space & Security, or Naval Air Systems Command at NAVAIR - U.S. Navy Naval Air Systems Command - Navy and Marine Corps Aviation Research, Development, Acquisition, Test and Evaluation.
 

knightrider4

Active Member
Boeing to equip Navy's new P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft for high-altitude ASW missions

another reason for why some of us wanted the Mk54 in 2007...... we could rely on an upgrade path for an inservice weapon

December 15, 2014
By John Keller
Editor

PATUXENT RIVER NAS, Md., 15 Dec. 2014. Surveillance aircraft experts at the Boeing Defense, Space & Security segment in Seattle are upgrading the U.S. Navy's new P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft to enable the long-range reconnaissance aircraft to perform anti-submarine warfare (ASW) missions from high altitudes.

Officials of the U.S. Naval Air Systems Command at Patuxent River Naval Air Station, Md., announced a $67.8 million contract to Boeing on Friday to integrate capabilities and training systems upgrades to the P-8A aircraft -- a variation of the Boeing 737-800 single-aisle passenger jetliner modified for maritime patrol and ASW.

Boeing engineers will upgrade the P-8A with high-altitude ASW weapons and sensors, as well as enable the aircraft to perform guided weapons in-flight target updates, retargeting, weapon hand-off, and bomb impact assessments over the Link-16 tactical radio network.

Among the upgrades Boeing will perform is to equip the P-8A aircraft with torpedoes that can be released from altitudes as high as 30,000 feet. These high-altitude torpedoes are Navy Mark 54 lightweight torpedoes with add-n kits that enable the weapons to glide through the air to attack enemy submarines from long ranges.

Last year the Navy authorized Boeing to start building the add-on kits as part of the High Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare Weapon Capability (HAAWC) Air Launch Accessory (ALA) program. Aircraft normally release conventional torpedoes from very low altitudes or with small parachutes to ease the torpedoes into the water gently.

The HAAWC ALA turns the Raytheon Mark 54 torpedo into a glide weapon that the P-8A aircraft can release from high altitudes. As the flying torpedo reaches the water, it jettisons wings and other air-control surfaces and takes on its original role as a smart torpedo that can detect, track, and attack enemy submarines autonomously.

Ultimately, the Navy plans to buy 108 P-8A aircraft from Boeing to replace the service’s fleet of 196 P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft, which are approaching the end of operational life. The P-3 is a version of the Lockheed Martin Electra four-engine turboprop aircraft.

Last summer Boeing delivered its 15th P-8A Poseidon to Navy Patrol Squadron 16 at the Jacksonville Naval Air Station, Fla. P-8A squadrons and air crews will be based at Jacksonville NAS and at Whidbey Island NAS, Wash., where the squadrons will train for extended deployments.

Navy officials plan to use the P-8A in tandem with the Northrop Grumman RQ-4N Triton Broad Area Maritime Surveillance (BAMS) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) -- a maritime-patrol version of the Global Hawk long-range surveillance UAV.
Related: Obsolete before deployment: Boeing to update P-8A electronic warfare components to stave-off obsolescence

One or more Triton UAV can detect and track hostile submarines, and the P-8A can launch torpedo attacks from high altitudes. Plans call for the P-8A to operate from high altitudes to save fuel, although the aircraft is hardened to operate at low altitudes.

Boeing is building the Poseidon aircraft at its factory in Renton, Wash. The 737 fuselage and tail sections will be built by Spirit AeroSystems in Wichita, Kan., then transferred to Renton where all structural features are incorporated in sequence during fabrication and assembly.

The P-8A’s flight management system and the stores management system have been developed by GE Aviation Systems in Grand Rapids, Mich. (formerly Smiths Aerospace). The cabin has as many as seven operator consoles.
Related: Navy prepares to ramp-up production of P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol jets for U.S. and Australia

The Poseidon’s MX-20HD digital electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) multi-spectral sensor turrets come from L-3 Communications Wescam in Burlington, Ontario. The MX-20HD is gyro-stabilized and can have as many as seven sensors, including infrared, CCDTV, image intensifier, laser rangefinder, and laser illuminator.

The aircraft has the upgraded APS-137D(V)5 maritime surveillance radar and signals intelligence (SIGINT) system from the Raytheon Co. Space and Airborne Systems (SAS) segment in McKinney, Texas.

The APS-137D(V)5 radar, which is installed on the P-8’s enlarged nose fairing, provides synthetic aperture radar (SAR) for imaging stationary ships and small vessels, coastal and overland surveillance, and high-resolution imaging synthetic aperture radar (ISAR) for imaging surfaced submarines and fast surface vessels operating in coastal waters.

The P-8A will have the CAE Inc. advanced integrated magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) system. The Navy plans to arm the P-8A with the MK 54 torpedo.
On this contract Boeing will do the work in Seattle; St. Louis; and Patuxent River, Md., and should be finished by December 2017. For more information contact Boeing online at Boeing: Defense, Space & Security, or Naval Air Systems Command at NAVAIR - U.S. Navy Naval Air Systems Command - Navy and Marine Corps Aviation Research, Development, Acquisition, Test and Evaluation.
Havent we equiped the Romeo with the Mk54?
 
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