Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Joe Black]

http://www.news.com.au/finance/busi...ubmarine-project/story-fnkgdhrc-1227116170598

Looks like Saab is really eager to secure the deal. It will be most interesting if they can propose a new vessel taking the Soryu hull design (and metallurgy technology) and drive trains, coupled them with US combat system, and other new Swedish innovations like UUV technology to produce the best of breed, even surpassing that of the "australianised" Soryu in capability

 

[StingrayOZ]

A spokesman for Defence Minister David Johnston confirmed that a Swedish bid had been received.
“We are aware that an unsolicited proposal was sent to Defence,” the spokesman said.

Hardly sounding like they are way up as favorites.It will be interesting to see which comes out as the winner..

 

[Milne Bay]

Hardly sounding like they are way up as favorites.It will be interesting to see which comes out as the winner..

Same thing was said about Navantia with the AWD.
Interesting times.
MB

 

[the road runner]

Think Kockums has shown its true color's with Collins and the battle that was fought in the courts and by contractors to rectify issues. I see Kockums at a disadvantage in this regard.

I think Australia is in the box seat.. we are talking about 20-40 billion dollars here and with Europe's shrinking defense budgets this is a major prize for the taking.

 

[Volkodav]

Think Kockums has shown its true color's with Collins and the battle that was fought in the courts and by contractors to rectify issues. I see Kockums at a disadvantage in this regard.

I think Australia is in the box seat.. we are talking about 20-40 billion dollars here and with Europe's shrinking defense budgets this is a major prize for the taking.

To be honest the main issue with Kockums was the the government decision to sideline them after the German take over. Many of the noise related issues were down to RAN insisted changes I.e. raising the position of the sonar to gain better arcs but disrupting flows as a result. Kockums weren't perfect and did not help themselves but a big part of the problem was the equipment and systems selections made buy the government and RAN followed by a new government politising the whole thing.

 

[the road runner]

I was under the impression the issues with IP , cavitation issues with the propeller , the engine manufacturer shutting shop, welding issues in the first boat and spare parts were kockums fault.

Cheers for the clarification Volkodav

 

[gf0012-aust]

I was under the impression the issues with IP , cavitation issues with the propeller , the engine manufacturer shutting shop, welding issues in the first boat and spare parts were kockums fault.

it was kockums fault for the above.

personally speaking, they'd be the last ones on my "dance card"

 

[Volkodav]

it was kockums fault for the above.

personally speaking, they'd be the last ones on my "dance card"

Yes all of those too, Kockums were far from perfect but it was far from all their fault. A big part of it was the government were looking for faults, whether they were there or not, for purely political reasons. Had the political filter been removed the real issues could have been addressed in far more timely and cost effective manner.

 

[Nick underscore]

it was kockums fault for the above.

personally speaking, they'd be the last ones on my "dance card"

Your personal thoughts are hopefully still alive and well within current decision circles.

Not being asked by GoA and then providing an unsolicited proposal. Total cheek by Kockums IMV.

The Japanese /Aus /US solution should be the most optimal for out part of the world.

The DCNS SMX Ocean concept looks very appealing, but too risky and developmentally expensive - I know someone posted the article in late Oct, but here is the YT from earlier that month.. DCNS marketing director on SMX Ocean proposal

 

[gf0012-aust]

Not being asked by GoA and then providing an unsolicited proposal. Total cheek by Kockums IMV.

Its not unusual though. as a contractor I used to see competitors (and ourselves) beat a path to both sides on the aft side of an election. The smart primes targeted vulnerable electorates where they had presence

you could argue with relative positivity that Hawkei was unsolicicted even though they tied it (later on) to an extant req, the primes then try the TIC of saying that they do local R&D etc.....

Ministers always like being taken on a show and tell and some companies know that too well. We used to have our own lines into the Ministers office as we knew the Chief of Staff and had people who had worked with their support staff - so we weren't averse to taking advantage of that relationship either.

its all part of the game

 

[hairyman]

The "Swedish Bid" might be one way of getting the Japanese technology without upsetting China.

 

[t68]

The "Swedish Bid" might be one way of getting the Japanese technology without upsetting China.

Not sure why we think we are going to annoy the Chinese about use Japaense submarine technology. It' s not like they are going to miss out on supplying the RAN with submarines since they have planes of their own for 12xType 095 SSN along with their 13xType 039A(041) it may be a cultural thing but that got nothing to do with Australia as certain sections of the community have issues with the Japanese as well.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Not sure why we think we are going to annoy the Chinese about use Japaense submarine technology. It' s not like they are going to miss out on supplying the RAN with submarines since they have planes of their own for 12xType 095 SSN along with their 13xType 039A(041) it may be a cultural thing but that got nothing to do with Australia as certain sections of the community have issues with the Japanese as well.

Well it was enough to get Bill Shorten - opposition leader all fired up about Japanese imperialism.

But on a more serious note, international relations are fairly touchy in the asian region recently. Its wise to tread carefully. It would be a first massive step for Japan to product arms for exports. Thats not saying it can't be done. But throw enough muppets into the mix and you can cause problems.

Im not sure what the swedish bid offers over the german bid. A german bid that doesn't have the bad blood like the swedish one may have.

 

[ASSAIL]

Not sure why we think we are going to annoy the Chinese about use Japaense submarine technology. It' s not like they are going to miss out on supplying the RAN with submarines since they have planes of their own for 12xType 095 SSN along with their 13xType 039A(041) it may be a cultural thing but that got nothing to do with Australia as certain sections of the community have issues with the Japanese as well.

Its not about building submarines its all about the strategic nuances within the Westpac area and beyond.
You surely must have been following the Sino Japanese rivalry in the mutually claimed islands in the East China Sea and be aware of the lingering hate between the countries caused by Japanese brutality during their occupation of China.
Couple that with Chinese naval aspirations, the strategic importance of the SLOC passing through China's maritime domain and the fact that China is Australia's
largest two way trading partner, you can begin to see why the Chinese sensibilities are upset by a submarine deal between us and Japan.

 

[Bluey 006]

Conventional sub with the capabilities of an SSN

Another interesting concept from Euronavale, this time from DCNS - a 4600t conventional Barracuda with 18,000nm range!

Not just a concept: SMX Ocean from DCNS | Ares

Is there any genuine interest in this concept (SMX Ocean) from the RAN?
It seems to be on paper what the RAN originally wanted: A conventional sub with the capabilities of an SSN (Long range,deep diving, long patrol, VLS etc). I think it is also fair to say that DCNS has targeted the SEA 1000 project in the design.

Any real chatter on this?

Open source media seems to indicate the Japanese route, suggesting the government favouring of the Soryu-class sub , but I am sure there is plenty going on behind closed doors.

Would a sub like this with long ranges and extended patrol time reduce the need for 12 subs , down to say 9 ( likely the minimum for 3 available at any one time)?

How effective is French signature management?

What are the core issues with buying French?

Do the challenges of integrating US weapons systems into a French boat effectively rule this option out ( Tomahawk Block 5 [or its replacement])?

Is it viable to go with the base French design but incorporate some Japanese technologies, to get around the Japanese technology transfer issues and geo-political issues in Asia ( i.e China and Japan)?


Naturally, Risk mitigation has a huge weighting for this project, will an in the water design get preference based on this?


Thoughts?

Discuss.....

 

[Magoo]

Is there any genuine interest in this concept (SMX Ocean) from the RAN?
It seems to be on paper what the RAN originally wanted: A conventional sub with the capabilities of an SSN (Long range,deep diving, long patrol, VLS etc). I think it is also fair to say that DCNS has targeted the SEA 1000 project in the design.

Any real chatter on this?

Open source media seems to indicate the Japanese route, suggesting the government favouring of the Soryu-class sub , but I am sure there is plenty going on behind closed doors.

Would a sub like this with long ranges and extended patrol time reduce the need for 12 subs , down to say 9 ( likely the minimum for 3 available at any one time)?

How effective is French signature management?

What are the core issues with buying French?

Do the challenges of integrating US weapons systems into a French boat effectively rule this option out ( Tomahawk Block 5 [or its replacement])?

Is it viable to go with the base French design but incorporate some Japanese technologies, to get around the Japanese technology transfer issues and geo-political issues in Asia ( i.e China and Japan)?


Naturally, Risk mitigation has a huge weighting for this project, will an in the water design get preference based on this?


Thoughts?

Discuss.....

Considering it was revealed two weeks ago, it's a little too early to gauge the level of interest.

But I imagine acquiring a French made sub would be somewhat problematic if you're looking to be interoperable with US, Singapore and Japan in our region...

Re the "12 subs" meme, we won't have 12 subs in service at the same time, it's more likely number 9 or 10 will replace number 1 etc, maybe 8 at once?

 

[gf0012-aust]

But I imagine acquiring a French made sub would be somewhat problematic if you're looking to be interoperable with US, Singapore and Japan in our region...

yep, you can kiss goodbye to getting access to some of the other 4I's gear we want

 

[Bluey 006]

yep, you can kiss goodbye to getting access to some of the other 4I's gear we want

That being the case! ( which I suspected) wouldn't (or shouldn't) those same limitation's apply to the other European proposals?

** Will understand if you can't answer this openly

 

[gf0012-aust]

That being the case! ( which I suspected) wouldn't (or shouldn't) those same limitation's apply to the other European proposals?

** Will understand if you can't answer this openly

each nation comes to the table with interesting constraints......

 

[pussertas]

G'day Stingray

Yes I was awere that the Spanish laid up PdA for economic reason and several nations showed an interst.

I actually thought she would ba a good fit for the RAN as an interim training ASW/Commando ship whilst we were waiting for the Canberra's to arrive and she could act as escort as well. In hindsight we could have leased/bought a Squadron worth of ex UK harriers and hopefully some trained pilots/support crew as well

Extracted from another Navy website.

Cannot vouch for its accuracy!

The first Commanding Officer of HMAS Canberra is Captain Jonathan Sadleir. The former Canadian officer has 27 years experience including 12 in the Canadian Navy. His last command job was driving the 3600-tonne Anzac frigate HMAS Parramatta.

As he surveys Port Phillip Bay from what will soon become his new office, dodging some of the 760km of cables being installed in the ship and the technicians doing the work, Captain Sadleir describes his new role as "humbling, but hugely exciting".

However, the excitement of commanding a ship more than eight times the size of his previous vessel is tempered by the responsibility of being the first CO of his adopted country's biggest ever warship and her 360-strong crew. For the first time a ship's crew will include up to 60 army and air force personnel, as well as 300 sailors.:jump2