The final NH90, NZ3308, was delivered to RNZAF Base Ohakea by Antonov AN124 UR-82073 on 30/10/2014. MRC Aviation: Final NH90 delivered - updated with new image and MRC Aviation: Heavyweights at Ohakea - updated with photos refer.
Royal New Zealand Air Force
- Thread starter Lucasnz
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40 deg south
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News - NHIndustries
I hadn't realised that NZ is the first country to receive its full order of NH90s. Given that the first prototype flew in 1995 (according to Wiki) and serial production has been underway since 2006, the NH90 hasn't exactly had a smooth introduction to service. I assume having production spread across six* final assembly lines hasn't helped.
*France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Finland, Australia, in case you were wondering.
I guess it all comes down to how many we actually need flying and available at any one time for what we need to do on a daily basis? Bar an all out air cav assault where we need to move coy+ quickly when would we use 90s in any great numbers? The re-deploy into Suai from Dilli way back when was the last time I can remember operationally so not a common occurence.
The other factors to consider are costs and manpower. The 90s cost alot (alot) more to operate PFH than the old woppas and then we still have to crew, maintain and support them, we have already had to increase expenditure just to keep them current and in the air.
We do not want to over commit just to go the way of LAV or naval vessels and have to park up in hangers or cut back in hours. It is all well and good to have the numbers but is current fleet even struggling to meet tasks? Surely we would have heard by now if so otherwise it could end up being wasted capacity/capability all to cover possiblities rather than probabilities.
In the end we only had 3 hueys in ET supporting our largest deployment in recent times (BN+) so to put in perspective the most we should deploy is realistically 2-3 90s in the surge (alongside 1-2 A109) dropping to 2 and 1 respectively after they shake out and settle in. At the moment I cannot see us deploying in such large numbers (in a NZ context) anytime soon as that was stretching the entire NZDF not just 3 Sqn or RNZAF individually. Now if we were involved in an all out conflict we would definately need the numbers but we are deficient in a few vital areas not just helo support therefore I guess for now the fleet is proportional. Will also be relevant in the future when old age and maintanence increases but for now we have time to counter and cover.
Firstly the 8 and 5 MUH/LUH mix was the absolute rock bottom credible capability - that the NZ Govt at the time could get away with. No surprise there.
The NZDF/MinDef LUH / MUH capability study completed before they took their findings to cabinet in 2005 considered Option 5C as the optimum or Level 5 solution because it met all key operational requirements and gave the ability for concurrent contingency tasking. This was a mix of 10 medium utility aircraft and 10 training & light utility aircraft.
The movement of an Army platoon of soldiers and equipment in a single wave to ensure synchronised arrival of combat elements was an important capability set that the MUH had to do and it was found to require a minimum of 3 NH-90 aircraft to be tasked but that figure depends on the volume of equipment to be moved and with 3 tasked no other concurrent taskings are possible. Discarded options were the UH-60 which 15 airframes would have been required and to ensure a synchronised arrival of combat elements would have required 5-6. The CY was built with 4 NH-90s in mind to deploy. As 4 is the minimum deployment orthodoxy in case an A/C goes U/S.
Though usually 3 UH-1s (Though at one stage early on there were 4iirc) were in ET it was not considered ideal and part of the lessons learned review post ET - which helped shape the MUH/LUH capability study.
With respect to the 109 LUH and Option 5C - it was considered that with an optimal 10 aircraft - 4 airframes for training, and a further 6 airframes to provide capacity for deployments of short duration into the Pacific, enable a limited amount of MAOT tasking in support of the NZDF, and ability to support CT requirements and crewman training. With the possible refresh to included reinforced landing gear and foldable rotor hubs (which can be retro -fitted) limited short term maritime operations from OPVs/CY could be also tasked.
The opportunity with the future Mako refresh is a chance to get us into the Level 5 zone originally sort by the NZDF. Though 3 vanilla 109 Power models are/were/possibly sought, though yet to be approved or funded, this is something we need to do. If it was up to me - I would go the extra yard and seek 4 more 109 Power models for training and an additional LUH. That would get us the 10 we need. Retro work also done at that time to have the 6 LUH variants partially uprated to do short duration maritime taskings. (But it is not up to me - it is up to the Govt. At that time frame we will have to look at the MEPT/Coastal ISR capability also.)
Get that done then we can next work on the extra couple of Warriors to bring our rotary capability up to the Level 5 plan saw as optimal. Those extra 2 airframes next decade could be a bridge into the future maritime rotary capability - the mix of ASW/ASUW and maritime utility variants we were discussing recently.
Cheers MrC.
PS:
The refresh is 4-5 years away - this is mid term stuff not tomorrow. Like RegR said in as many words we have to build methodically the capacity. KiwiRob you are right we do need to build more - rotary capability is far more front and centre in how we will conduct ops from now on.
The NZDF/MinDef LUH / MUH capability study completed before they took their findings to cabinet in 2005 considered Option 5C as the optimum or Level 5 solution because it met all key operational requirements and gave the ability for concurrent contingency tasking. This was a mix of 10 medium utility aircraft and 10 training & light utility aircraft.
The movement of an Army platoon of soldiers and equipment in a single wave to ensure synchronised arrival of combat elements was an important capability set that the MUH had to do and it was found to require a minimum of 3 NH-90 aircraft to be tasked but that figure depends on the volume of equipment to be moved and with 3 tasked no other concurrent taskings are possible. Discarded options were the UH-60 which 15 airframes would have been required and to ensure a synchronised arrival of combat elements would have required 5-6. The CY was built with 4 NH-90s in mind to deploy. As 4 is the minimum deployment orthodoxy in case an A/C goes U/S.
Though usually 3 UH-1s (Though at one stage early on there were 4iirc) were in ET it was not considered ideal and part of the lessons learned review post ET - which helped shape the MUH/LUH capability study.
With respect to the 109 LUH and Option 5C - it was considered that with an optimal 10 aircraft - 4 airframes for training, and a further 6 airframes to provide capacity for deployments of short duration into the Pacific, enable a limited amount of MAOT tasking in support of the NZDF, and ability to support CT requirements and crewman training. With the possible refresh to included reinforced landing gear and foldable rotor hubs (which can be retro -fitted) limited short term maritime operations from OPVs/CY could be also tasked.
The opportunity with the future Mako refresh is a chance to get us into the Level 5 zone originally sort by the NZDF. Though 3 vanilla 109 Power models are/were/possibly sought, though yet to be approved or funded, this is something we need to do. If it was up to me - I would go the extra yard and seek 4 more 109 Power models for training and an additional LUH. That would get us the 10 we need. Retro work also done at that time to have the 6 LUH variants partially uprated to do short duration maritime taskings. (But it is not up to me - it is up to the Govt. At that time frame we will have to look at the MEPT/Coastal ISR capability also.)
Get that done then we can next work on the extra couple of Warriors to bring our rotary capability up to the Level 5 plan saw as optimal. Those extra 2 airframes next decade could be a bridge into the future maritime rotary capability - the mix of ASW/ASUW and maritime utility variants we were discussing recently.
Cheers MrC.
PS:
The refresh is 4-5 years away - this is mid term stuff not tomorrow. Like RegR said in as many words we have to build methodically the capacity. KiwiRob you are right we do need to build more - rotary capability is far more front and centre in how we will conduct ops from now on.
Last edited:
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
France deploys NH90 to Mali - IHS Jane's 360
Interesting piece from Janes on the first combat deployment of French NH90s.
Deployed there via a four-day ferry flight. Perhaps the French don't have enough A400s in stock yet.
Interesting piece from Janes on the first combat deployment of French NH90s.
Deployed there via a four-day ferry flight. Perhaps the French don't have enough A400s in stock yet.
That release didn't say that the Kiwis gave the Aussies a 15 minute head start as wellA small RNZAF vs RAAF story to make you smile:
Though I think the 757's are actually quite a bit older than the 737's in build date at least
On another note another three T6Cs have started their journey home to Ohakea from Wichita. This time two of them are being flown by RNZAF pilots. CAF tweeted on his twitter account before. T6toNZ | Follow the Royal New Zealand Air Force's new pilot training aircraft on its journey from Wichita, USA to New Zealand
I kinda like the idea that our PM has a bigger plane than the Aussie PM.A small RNZAF vs RAAF story to make you smile:
Though I think the 757's are actually quite a bit older than the 737's in build date at least
t68
Well-Known Member
Until the PM gets the MRTT for long haul flights
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
A mate in the islands told me a slightly related story a year or two ago.
NZ Foreign Minister McCully has just disembarked from the RNZAF 757 and is watching the unloading through the terminal window in Tonga/Samoa/Cooks (can't remember which). In comes a Bombardier bizjet with his Aussie conterpart, Bob Carr. Once Carr enters the terminal, McCully gazes in silence at the two aircraft of vastly different size and says
"If I'd known you were that hard up for transport, mate, I'd have given you a lift!'
They yarn away for a couple of minutes, then McCully points to a baggage cart trundling past heavily laden with kiwi Sauvignon blanc and Pinot noir destined for a diplomatic reception.
"You'd better bring your team up to our High Commisson for a drink tonight - you couldn't fit more than a couple of stubbies of Fosters in the back of that thing". gesturing at the Aussie jet.
Mind you, i do wonder about the authenticity of the story - first time anyone has ever suggested McCully has a sense of humour.
NZ Foreign Minister McCully has just disembarked from the RNZAF 757 and is watching the unloading through the terminal window in Tonga/Samoa/Cooks (can't remember which). In comes a Bombardier bizjet with his Aussie conterpart, Bob Carr. Once Carr enters the terminal, McCully gazes in silence at the two aircraft of vastly different size and says
"If I'd known you were that hard up for transport, mate, I'd have given you a lift!'
They yarn away for a couple of minutes, then McCully points to a baggage cart trundling past heavily laden with kiwi Sauvignon blanc and Pinot noir destined for a diplomatic reception.
"You'd better bring your team up to our High Commisson for a drink tonight - you couldn't fit more than a couple of stubbies of Fosters in the back of that thing". gesturing at the Aussie jet.
Mind you, i do wonder about the authenticity of the story - first time anyone has ever suggested McCully has a sense of humour.
Well we used to use 707s until their old noisy and smoky engines became an embarrassment as the number of airports they were allowed to fly to got smaller and smaller. Always liked the 757 but its been out of production for many years now and I do remember being surprised when we ordered the 737s as they we so much smaller than the 707. At the time a mix of 767 and 737 would likely have been better than the 737 and Challengers, especially if we had ordered 767 tanker / transports as well.
The interesting thing is the 707, 737 & 757 all use the same cross section, basically the same sausage with different lengths and attachments.
Besides they are only really necessary when Clive Palmer is flyingAutomatic reply...
'Our C-17's were busy on Ops...'
And also the 727, one of my all time favorites. They were actually transonic and, from what I've been told, could super cruise in level flight with a tail wind. The later day turbofan conversations where very impressive..
Hopefully picking up a few pallets of the Barossa Valley Shiraz.Automatic reply...
'Our C-17's were busy on Ops...'
40 South - If it was the Cooks it would have been hosted by John Carter. John knew how to thow a good function. A C17 full of top quality grog would have been welcome.
Flying a kite and definately from the left field - and because it is sometime fun to introduce fresh ideas to mull over here at DT.
Based on the news that Air NZ are going to withdraw the Beechcraft 1900D from regional commuter services I had one of those lightbulb moments. Of course I have no idea on their hours, condition or if in fact if Air NZ actually owns or leases them (never have taken an interest in them before I read the Herald online this afternoon).
So once they have each gone through a deep maintenance / life extension project and with a Garmin G950 STC glass cockpit retrofit and installation of an enlarged rear cargo door and extended range fuel tanks they could have potential as a RNZAF MEPT, VIP, SAR and EEZ maritime ISR platform to replace the B200 in 2018. That work could be done at locally at Safe Air / Hawker Pacific (local jobs, more money stays in the country etc....) A there is the chance to pick them up at pretty much book value.
Configure 5 in the basic Trainer / VIP / Light Transport role and a further 5 in the more sophisticated Maritime ISR role. Capability sorted, and in fact doubled, money saved to spend elsewhere, basically a roomier B350, cheaper and in more numbers. Free up more money to spend on more LUH's. Whats not to like! (Though I bet you all will hate it because it is not brand spanking new and gold plated and they look blooody ugly)
Cheers MrC
Based on the news that Air NZ are going to withdraw the Beechcraft 1900D from regional commuter services I had one of those lightbulb moments. Of course I have no idea on their hours, condition or if in fact if Air NZ actually owns or leases them (never have taken an interest in them before I read the Herald online this afternoon).
So once they have each gone through a deep maintenance / life extension project and with a Garmin G950 STC glass cockpit retrofit and installation of an enlarged rear cargo door and extended range fuel tanks they could have potential as a RNZAF MEPT, VIP, SAR and EEZ maritime ISR platform to replace the B200 in 2018. That work could be done at locally at Safe Air / Hawker Pacific (local jobs, more money stays in the country etc....) A there is the chance to pick them up at pretty much book value.
Configure 5 in the basic Trainer / VIP / Light Transport role and a further 5 in the more sophisticated Maritime ISR role. Capability sorted, and in fact doubled, money saved to spend elsewhere, basically a roomier B350, cheaper and in more numbers. Free up more money to spend on more LUH's. Whats not to like! (Though I bet you all will hate it because it is not brand spanking new and gold plated and they look blooody ugly)
Cheers MrC
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
I had a similar thought, but a couple of years earlier! My thinking was that the 1900D was essentially a stretched KingAir, with greater passenger/payload capacity. If RNZAF bought a handful for MEPT/VIP/EEZ surveillance, they could piggyback on the Air NZ logistics and maintenance system. The lightbulb moment lasted until I discovered that AirNZ's 1900Ds were the last batch ever manufactured (in 2002), and I doubted RNZAF would look at a second-hand light turboprop.Flying a kite and definately from the left field - and because it is sometime fun to introduce fresh ideas to mull over here at DT.
Based on the news that Air NZ are going to withdraw the Beechcraft 1900D from regional commuter services I had one of those lightbulb moments. Of course I have no idea on their hours, condition or if in fact if Air NZ actually owns or leases them (never have taken an interest in them before I read the Herald online this afternoon).
So once they have each gone through a deep maintenance / life extension project and with a Garmin G950 STC glass cockpit retrofit and installation of an enlarged rear cargo door and extended range fuel tanks they could have potential as a RNZAF MEPT, VIP, SAR and EEZ maritime ISR platform to replace the B200 in 2018. That work could be done at locally at Safe Air / Hawker Pacific (local jobs, more money stays in the country etc....) A there is the chance to pick them up at pretty much book value.
Configure 5 in the basic Trainer / VIP / Light Transport role and a further 5 in the more sophisticated Maritime ISR role. Capability sorted, and in fact doubled, money saved to spend elsewhere, basically a roomier B350, cheaper and in more numbers. Free up more money to spend on more LUH's. Whats not to like! (Though I bet you all will hate it because it is not brand spanking new and gold plated and they look blooody ugly)
Cheers MrC
I still think the idea deserves consideration; while there will be no major commercial player using the same type, there is a pool of experienced engineers/maintainers in Hamilton eagerly looking for work. The aircraft are relatively new and have been well-maintained. Plus the type has already been modified for special missions - sample link below. And it is a significant step up in the VIP/light transport role over the existing KingAirs.
TKCA | Airborne Beech 1900 D
But will it happen? Probably not. My impression is that the new procurement systems are so focused on long-range planning that these aircraft will have been sold off long before the various hoops could be jumped through and a business case presented to Cabinet.