Brazilian Air Force News and Discussion

[RobWilliams]

Saab is supposedly close to signing a contract with Brazil for 36 Gripen NG fighters, the deal is meant to be signed by years end with possibly a deal for transferring Swedish Gripen C/D to fill the gap left by their departing Mirage 2000's.

Saab nears Gripen contract with Brazil - 10/23/2014 - Flight Global

Previously defensenews has said that Brazil may be looking for 80 - 100 Gripens to be the backbone of their fleet plus a potential order of naval Gripens.

There's even been rumours of the Argentinians looking to buy 24 Gripens from Brazil in the future, however that is highly questionable for a number of reasons.

The other day, Brazils first KC-390 was rolled out. The plan is to build 6 airframes for testing. 2 flying prototypes, 2 static prototypes and 2 fatigue testing airframes. The two flying prototypes will - at the end of the production run - be refurbished to production standard and will join the Brazilian Air Force.

PICTURE: Embraer KC-390 rolls out in Brazil - 10/21/2014 - Flight Global
ANALYSIS: How Embraer attracted a global audience to the KC-390 roll-out - 10/22/2014 - Flight Global

 

[John Fedup]

The KC-390 is a bold move for Embraer. It will be interesting to see how well their jet transport fits into the military transport marketplace. Developing military aviation products is something Bombardier needs to be doing in a bigger way.

 

[RobWilliams]

That's the thing, Brazil could be the aerospace provider for a good chunk of South American countries. I'm quite keen on the KC-390 myself, it fits right in the space which the C-130 fills (maybe slightly higher payload) which itself isn't a bad thing when some countries are looking to replace their own C-130s.

They've got what, 60 airframes ordered already plus there's a couple of other countries which have registered interest but haven't ordered? Not bad for a first go IMO.

Anyway, Brazil and Saab signed the deal for their Gripens, right after Dilma won the election.

36 Gripen NG (28 single seat E and 8 twin seat F) for $5.4 billion, but here's the weird part, 21 of the aircraft will be assembled in Sweden by teams including Brazilian engineers. At least 15 will be assembled in Brazil including all of the twin seaters.

Considering how much they wanted indigenous build, that's not great. Unless there is following production on the books . . .

Brazil Signs Deal With Saab To Buy 36 Gripens | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[pkcasimir]

That's the thing, Brazil could be the aerospace provider for a good chunk of South American countries. I'm quite keen on the KC-390 myself, it fits right in the space which the C-130 fills (maybe slightly higher payload) which itself isn't a bad thing when some countries are looking to replace their own C-130s.

They've got what, 60 airframes ordered already plus there's a couple of other countries which have registered interest but haven't ordered? Not bad for a first go IMO.

Anyway, Brazil and Saab signed the deal for their Gripens, right after Dilma won the election.

36 Gripen NG (28 single seat E and 8 twin seat F) for $5.4 billion, but here's the weird part, 21 of the aircraft will be assembled in Sweden by teams including Brazilian engineers. At least 15 will be assembled in Brazil including all of the twin seaters.

Considering how much they wanted indigenous build, that's not great. Unless there is following production on the books . . .

Brazil Signs Deal With Saab To Buy 36 Gripens | Defense News | defensenews.com

Saab does not control the technology for the power plant (engine) or the radar. It requires US permission to transfer any of it to the Brazilians. It's highly unlikely they will get it.

 

[RobWilliams]

Not the radar, that's a UK product.

You really reckon they would go this far down the process and suddenly go 'oh crap, what about the engines?!' 'You numbskull, why i outta . . . '

 

[pkcasimir]

Not the radar, that's a UK product.

You really reckon they would go this far down the process and suddenly go 'oh crap, what about the engines?!' 'You numbskull, why i outta . . . '

Parts of the radar were developed by Selex's US subsidiary, Selex-Galileo, and are subject to US export restrictions. At the time of the sale, Braziil knew that this radar and engines were also subject to US export restrictions and any technology transfer was subject to US approval, numbskull. That's why, the engines are being fitted into the Gripen in Sweden and Brazil has received none of the technology, numskull.

 

[RobWilliams]

Enough of the attitude

So, if the IP rules are so strict as to force the engines to be fitted to airframes in Sweden (as you suggest), how come at least 15 of them will be assembled in Brazil?

My guess, shipped over in crates and installed on site in Brazil.

 

[StobieWan]

Parts of the radar were developed by Selex's US subsidiary, Selex-Galileo, and are subject to US export restrictions. At the time of the sale, Braziil knew that this radar and engines were also subject to US export restrictions and any technology transfer was subject to US approval, numbskull. That's why, the engines are being fitted into the Gripen in Sweden and Brazil has received none of the technology, numskull.

I believe Rob was quoting an oft used and humorous reference, and not calling you a numbskull

I don't see how the ITARS requirements on the engines can be gotten around - it's a Volvo development of a US engine and India uses it with ITARS approval I believe.

 

[Bonza]

Parts of the radar were developed by Selex's US subsidiary, Selex-Galileo, and are subject to US export restrictions. At the time of the sale, Braziil knew that this radar and engines were also subject to US export restrictions and any technology transfer was subject to US approval, numbskull. That's why, the engines are being fitted into the Gripen in Sweden and Brazil has received none of the technology, numskull.

Rob wasn't calling you a numbskull, read his post again and take heed of the quotation marks.

 

[RobWilliams]

I believe Rob was quoting an oft used and humorous reference, and not calling you a numbskull

Indeed, I was imagining the decision makers to be akin to 'The Three Stooges' if they went this far down the process, signed the contracts and didn't understand what they were getting,

I don't see how the ITARS requirements on the engines can be gotten around - it's a Volvo development of a US engine and India uses it with ITARS approval I believe.

Absolutely, you'd think if that sort of stuff was a major problem that they wouldn't have gone for a design with a US power plant. If it was and they haven't yet realised <insert three stooges reference here>.

India uses the powerplant for their Tejas fighter, last I heard they're looking for something like 300 Mk1 and Mk2 combined in the end.

 

[swerve]

Parts of the radar were developed by Selex's US subsidiary, Selex-Galileo, and are subject to US export restrictions. At the time of the sale, Braziil knew that this radar and engines were also subject to US export restrictions and any technology transfer was subject to US approval, numbskull. That's why, the engines are being fitted into the Gripen in Sweden and Brazil has received none of the technology, numskull.

So . . . . . when Selex in the UK & the Italian parent company said that the Vixen E series was ITAR-free, by design, they were lying? Or did Selex & SAAB introduce ITAR-controlled features to the Raven which were not present in the radar it was developed from?

Are you confusing Selex Galileo Inc (the US subsidiary), with its Italian parent, or the UK operation, both also known as Selex Galileo?

Note that according to its own website, Selex Galileo Inc integrates & fits systems -

SELEX Galileo Inc. provides Avionic Systems Integration services to improve the capabilities of key platforms. We rely on our parent company's product portfolio of key state-of-the-art technologies such as Avionics, Electro-Optical, Electronic Warfare Systems, Airborne Radar, Lasers, Simulators and Unmanned Aerial Systems.

Also, how do you reconcile what you say with Selex Galileo & SAAB signing a co-operation agreement with the Brazilian firm ATMOS, to focus initially on Raven ES-05?

 

[pkcasimir]

So . . . . . when Selex in the UK & the Italian parent company said that the Vixen E series was ITAR-free, by design, they were lying? Or did Selex & SAAB introduce ITAR-controlled features to the Raven which were not present in the radar it was developed from?

Are you confusing Selex Galileo Inc (the US subsidiary), with its Italian parent, or the UK operation, both also known as Selex Galileo?

Note that according to its own website, Selex Galileo Inc integrates & fits systems -


Also, how do you reconcile what you say with Selex Galileo & SAAB signing a co-operation agreement with the Brazilian firm ATMOS, to focus initially on Raven ES-05?

The following quote from the defense industry daily article on the agreement between SAAB and Brazil may be of interest to you:

What’s left? Brazil’s FAB confirms that the interim lease agreement for 10-12 JAS-39C/Ds will be a separate deal with the Swedish government. Meanwhile, the JAS-39NG contracts still require certain conditions before they become final, such as required export control-related authorizations from the USA et. al. All of these conditions are expected to be fulfilled during the first half of 2015, with deliveries to take place from 2019 – 2024. Sources: Saab, “Saab and Brazil sign contract for Gripen NG” | Brazil FAB, “Brasil assina contrato para aquisicao de 36 cacas Gripen NG

I don't share their optimism that these are minor details to be worked out. There are elections coming up next week for the US House and Senate. The new Senate and House will not be friends of Dilma and Brazil

 

[RobWilliams]

If the US was willing to export their Super Hornet including offers of indigenous build then I doubt the will care about exporting the engine.

 

[John Fedup]

If the US was willing to export their Super Hornet including offers of indigenous build then I doubt the will care about exporting the engine.

I guess one difference is Brazil would not be exporting Superhornets to other South American countries as they want to do with the Gripen and their own KC-390. Mind you, the Superhornet is only affordable in SA to Brazil.

Do you see the Japanese XC-2 as potential competition to the KC-390 or will it be too expensive?

 

[John Fedup]

I really thought that since Brazil was interested in France's nuclear sub technology this technology need should have helped secure a Rafale deal. Maybe the rumour that Dassault is tiresome to deal with is true.

 

[swerve]

The following quote from the defense industry daily article on the agreement between SAAB and Brazil may be of interest to you:

What’s left? Brazil’s FAB confirms that the interim lease agreement for 10-12 JAS-39C/Ds will be a separate deal with the Swedish government. Meanwhile, the JAS-39NG contracts still require certain conditions before they become final, such as required export control-related authorizations from the USA et. al. All of these conditions are expected to be fulfilled during the first half of 2015, with deliveries to take place from 2019 – 2024. Sources: Saab, “Saab and Brazil sign contract for Gripen NG” | Brazil FAB, “Brasil assina contrato para aquisicao de 36 cacas Gripen NG

I don't share their optimism that these are minor details to be worked out. There are elections coming up next week for the US House and Senate. The new Senate and House will not be friends of Dilma and Brazil

What relevance does that have to the radar?

 

[old faithful]

And to think that there is speculation that Argentina might tag onto a production line, that may never happen!
Lol!

 

[RobWilliams]

Like many things to do with Argentinian procurement, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[StobieWan]

They've been offered many deals in the past which have been a lot cheaper than this and they've not taken them up. If they go out and buy some spares for their existing fleet of Mirage and fly them a bit (which they've not done since 2006 ) then I'll take notice.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Like many things to do with Argentinian procurement, I'll believe it when I see it.

Also I'm not sure how Argentina and Brazil would get Sweden or the other countries that contribute parts towards the Gripen (e.g. the UK) to agree to such a sale.