Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
It all comes down to funding in the end, Im sure all sqns would want full complements but with all services fighting over the ever shrinking pie they will all be pushing their justifications to the front of the priority list.
Funding. It is always there as an issue and always will be. The balancing act between capability and capacity, funding and outputs.

That is why I am pleased they grabbed the 10 Sprite airframes. For some reason people have dumped on them. They are not sexy, but those 10 that we are getting mean that 8 will fly, meaning that 3 can be sustained at OLOC and possibly 4 for a brief period.

Since the Hunn Report and the establishment of the Joint Command in Trentham the old inter service rivilary is not as marked as it was in the late 1990s early 2000s. Services have learnt more about how they can operate and co-operate at the senior levels. The JATF is consolidiating that even further. Service chiefs are not the power brokers they once were. The CDF now holds more cards and the PM and DefMin hold his. The VCDF and Joint Commander have a lot of swing as well. In fact any form of empire building is frowned upon. Careerwise you wont get past Capt/Col/GrpCapt The actions of some Snr Sirs a few years back in my view are partly responsible for the chaos that followed in policy, plams and acquisitions.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Funding. It is always there as an issue and always will be. The balancing act between capability and capacity, funding and outputs.

That is why I am pleased they grabbed the 10 Sprite airframes. For some reason people have dumped on them. They are not sexy, but those 10 that we are getting mean that 8 will fly, meaning that 3 can be sustained at OLOC and possibly 4 for a brief period.

Since the Hunn Report and the establishment of the Joint Command in Trentham the old inter service rivilary is not as marked as it was in the late 1990s early 2000s. Services have learnt more about how they can operate and co-operate at the senior levels. The JATF is consolidiating that even furth:sleepy2er. Service chiefs are not the power brokers they once were. The CDF now holds more cards and the PM and DefMin hold his. The VCDF and Joint Commander have a lot of swing as well. In fact any form of empire building is frowned upon. Careerwise you wont get past Capt/Col/GrpCapt The actions of some Snr Sirs a few years back in my view are partly responsible for the chaos that followed in policy, plams and acquisitions.
Agreed, good deal at a good price and should be an easy transition with most training, procedures, operation and infrastructure already in place and gives us a more adequate number of frames to work with, modern cockpit, new missile system etc but more importantly buys us time to make a better informed decision on future requirements with regards to more matured type options, replacement RNZN platforms and JATF shake out and end user requirements.

I think what some don't realise is that if we had not have taken up this option we may well have had to keep the current fleet going for awhile longer yet along with all the identified shortfalls, problems and deficiancies associated with the legacy fleet in terms of numbers, reliability and overall condition.

The services are realising more and more that joint operations will now be the norm and that shared capabilities that have a range of uses across the NZDF rather than single service will have a better chance of approval if justification is beyond a doubt and beneficial in at least some way to all. Inter service rivalry for roles, responsibilities and capabilities is not completely gone but this is good as it breeds a sense of professionalism and standards through competition and pride.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
So what your suggesting is for want of better words is a Romeo and Sierra versions of the NH-90. The "Sierra" version equiped with AQS-20A and other AMCM detection gear would be a very useful capability looking ahead.

BAMS / Stanflex / Venator like vessels are a no brainer really for the RNZN. The ability to swap out / add and re-role quiclkly through mission packages the vessel, from a benign HADR tasking through to effectively a Corvette/Sloop of War like surface combatant, then into a MCM/DSV and then back into benign EEZ OPV, with other role such as sigint/elint, environmental protection, MAOT tasks such as logistic supply of DOC staff on small island research bases. That is exactly what we need and should have had planned a decade ago rather than the former Labour Governments reheated version of the Irish Naval Service.

In many respects the ship specifications we really need is not yet built COTS - but other than the hull and superstructure everything would be COTS. The big Korean shipyards could do something with an eventual class of four. Something along these characteristics - circa 3000t, 100-105m, 40 days endurance, 10000km+ range, 22kts+ but ability to loiter under 5, Base crew of 35 plus 10 aircrew and 10 observers with a further accommodation capability 30 personnel short-stay - mission specific (Ideally further austere emergency accommodation as well should be possible for evac/refugee sits), 3D surveillance radar + sensors, surgical/Med suite, 1A ICE, Bofors Mk 110 57 mm as a std main gun, mini tyhoon, light CIWS like NARWHAL, medium heli capable flight deck and hangerage, workshop, flexdeck, 6 TCUs, hydraulic crane for mission packages / swap outs (including deployed small survey/inshore launch per SMB Adventure), decompression chamber and MCM drone et al). I would be looking at a palletised Point ADM and ASW capability swapped on/off as needed because it is essential that the vessel type can swing roles from EEZ roles through to anti-piracy, LIC, sealane escort. or directed taskings in a Chp VII maritime environment. If we include module / palletized system some things like Survey / Dive and MCM could be cross decked with the LWSV and vive versa. Though the LWSV is likely to be different vessel synergies should be there to backup, support and complement. Though I envisage 4 next generation OPVs the LWSV is will be in many ways a defacto 5th OPV
10,000km is 5,400 nautical miles and the Protector Class OPV has a range of 6,000 nautical miles at 15 knots hence any replacement has to have that range as a minima. IMHO 7,000nm would be a nice increase. The flight deck will have to be rated to around 12 tonnes for the NFH / NH90 because its max all up weight is 11 tonne plus the aircrews lunch. You have a good set of specs there. Chuck in the ubiquitous .50 cals and not a bad OPV. I like you picking the Class 1A Ice spec because it makes more sense for loitering down the ice way.
The above would generally be my design/capability parameters for the next generation "OPV" (following the Endeavour and LWSV introduction) that may replace the first 2 IPV"s to go, then the next 2 IPVs replaced, then the Otago and then Wellington on a bi-annual basis. To replace the IPVs, which the Navy didnt really want but Clark/Goff/MFish did and the OPVs which to use a kind phrase - are underwhelming, a few years early, (they will have a useful second life with a small-medium developing nation, thus a win-win all round) and follow up that build program with the CY replacement (13000-15000 tonne LHD that I have previously outlined and advocated) and then a couple of very capable Anzacs to polish it all off.

At that stage or even a few years before, we would have a better read of the geo-strategic tea leaves post 2030 and decide whether to commit to a 3rd Anzac, or follow up with another batch of Gen II "OPVs." I would be initially inclined to keep the CY in reserve or limited use status as a cover or Sea/Aviation training role manning suplemented through VR personnel, because though the CY replacement vessel will be much better in a JATF role, the reality is that we can only afford, sustain and man realistically just one. It will be a more complex and capable ship and a cornerstone capability for a post 2025 NZDF. And it cannot be at sea permanently 24/7/365 or if it is away as part of a major TF/Ex with the next Endeavour, 2 Frigates, the LWSV and possibly a kitted up OPV in Vette mode and a Tsunami hits Samoa or the locals on Niue go troppo, then it could be quite a useful backup. I do want to make the point a small LHD vessel as the CY replacement would also benefit from the swap in / swap out modularized capability of the "OPVs" and actually when not in JATF / Sealift / HADR mode would be able to operate deployed rotary assets ala NHF-90 or MH-60R/S sailing independently in long range peacetime patrols possibly in lieu of a costly 3rd Anzac.

Cheers MrC
I read a bit more about the NFH and can do things with it the the MH60S does so I don't really see the advantage of going there. If we stick with the NH90/NFH then we aren't introducing another type into service. The NFH has the advantage of the rear ramp and more lifting capability. I also think sloops and corvettes are misnomers now when we are talking about OPVs that are 800 tonnes smaller than the current ANZAC class frigates and probably with just about as much capability of the NZ FFHs. That's a personal foible on my part. However the RN have resurrected the term again (which I don't agree with) and this is a pdf of Concept note from 2010. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ata/file/33686/20120503JCN112_Black_SwanU.pdf Whether we like it or not we really do need a third frigate and maybe a way around that capability whilst the ANZACs are being replaced is to go with an Absalon. Lets be honest, the Absalons in their present forms are much better armed than the RNZN ANZACS and they have a better range of systems. Yes I do like the Absalon and I do see a place for it in the RNZN JATF Fleet.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
10,000km is 5,400 nautical miles and the Protector Class OPV has a range of 6,000 nautical miles at 15 knots hence any replacement has to have that range as a minima. IMHO 7,000nm would be a nice increase. The flight deck will have to be rated to around 12 tonnes for the NFH / NH90 because its max all up weight is 11 tonne plus the aircrews lunch. You have a good set of specs there. Chuck in the ubiquitous .50 cals and not a bad OPV. I like you picking the Class 1A Ice spec because it makes more sense for loitering down the ice way.

I read a bit more about the NFH and can do things with it the the MH60S does so I don't really see the advantage of going there. If we stick with the NH90/NFH then we aren't introducing another type into service. The NFH has the advantage of the rear ramp and more lifting capability. I also think sloops and corvettes are misnomers now when we are talking about OPVs that are 800 tonnes smaller than the current ANZAC class frigates and probably with just about as much capability of the NZ FFHs. That's a personal foible on my part. However the RN have resurrected the term again (which I don't agree with) and this is a pdf of Concept note from 2010. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ata/file/33686/20120503JCN112_Black_SwanU.pdf Whether we like it or not we really do need a third frigate and maybe a way around that capability whilst the ANZACs are being replaced is to go with an Absalon. Lets be honest, the Absalons in their present forms are much better armed than the RNZN ANZACS and they have a better range of systems. Yes I do like the Absalon and I do see a place for it in the RNZN JATF Fleet.
The OPV specifications outlined above will be primarily be for a long hull OPV in its fundamental bread and butter role, which will take on modules to perform a variety of directed roles. viz a "Corvette" like tasking with respect to the lower-mid spectrum of Chapter VII combat events in support of the larger assetts. They will not be corvettes 24/7/365. But we would have the capacity to sent one OPV into that environment. I want that to be clearly reiterated and comprehended.

You could look at these OPVs as "Light" Absalons because in many respects they are a morphing of the Thetis/Knud R/Absalon capabilities and into a standardized hull. In some ways this kind of like a modernised StanFlex 3000 design that became the larger Absalon due to the Danes requiring a Sealift capacity. With the Endeavour replacement. the CY replacement (and as I have proposed retention of the CY in a pure Sealift/Training role (at a BLOC readiness) we will be well sorted in that area. Especially that the LWSV and the OPVs will also have some Supply capability even if it is just six TCUs. Range, noted is a minimun incidently. It will depend on tasking.

I like the Absalon also but I would rather have 4-5 of what I have proposed - effectively Absalon like without the - unnecessary sealift conpoment for IPV/vehicles.

A third Frigate would be nice however, it is only ever going to be an option and 20 years away. I would rather work through a coherant replacement programme for Endeavour, LWSV. IPV/OPVs, CY and then the 2 Anzacs plus any further vessels.
 

chis73

Active Member
Has anyone heard any noises about a helicopter for the future tanker as part of the MPSC procurement (seemingly to be in service by 2018)? One hopes that this has not been overlooked or that the poor wee Seasprite is expected to fulfill such a primarily logistical role. Something bigger really is needed. A big cargo-carrying helo, but one also compatible with deck ops. We would seem to have too few NH90s to assign one to the Endeavour replacement on a regular basis. So what are our options? My view, in order of increasing cost:

a) the usual do nothing option. Don't embark a helo on the future tanker. Hope some kind of ad-hoc arrangement can be worked out when the need arises. Rely on the too-small Seasprite and the current NH90s (even though the TTH version is not that suited for marine operations, and currently there are some surprising corrosion issues in even the NFH version if the Dutch & French reports are to be believed). Likely to often result in no helicopter (or one too small) being onboard when one is needed.

b) rely on a private contractor, like the US Military Sealift Command does, with Pumas. This could create some interesting issues around civilians on a navy vessel (unless the future tanker was operated as a civilian vessel - not a smart move in my opinion for a tiny navy like RNZN)

c) buy something secondhand. This introduces another aircraft type to support (in very small numbers). The Blackhawk would be probably be the best bet here (as the MH-60R is in service with the RAN). Perhaps something upgraded to the MH-60S version. Or some version of the Puma or Super Puma. Many of the options in this category may not be optimally suited for shipboard operation (ie missing electrically folding tails & rotors), and probably no rear cargo ramp either.

d) purchase some more new NH90s (a navalised TTH version preferably). This would make the most sense from a logistical standpoint as it would save having to support an additional helicopter type. But a navalised TTH as yet does not exist (there is a troop transport NFH - built for the Dutch, but it lacks a rear ramp), although the Italians supposedly have 10 TTH on order for their navy. NH90 production is also running years behind schedule - so it is unlikely that any aircraft ordered now could be delivered by 2017.

e) buy something else new. This option is highly likely to be discarded on cost grounds. Best bet here from a timing perspective might be the AW101. The RN is currently taking over the RAFs Merlins and navalising them to HC.4 standard (ie producing exactly the type of helo I think we require - a big navalised cargo helicopter with a ramp). Norway has also just ordered 16 AW101. NZ buying the AW101 (say compatible to Merlin HC.4 standard) would solve a lot of issues for Army as well (it could carry a Pinz internally and be much more useful for lifting artillery). I guess maybe 4 would be needed (one for the tanker, and one or two available for army, one in maintenance). Might even be a better option on the Canterbury too. Would need a C-17 to be air-transportable (hello Australia?) But the AW101 is an expensive helicopter to buy and operate (it would probably use the same engine as the NH90 though).

Any opinions from the group on the above?

I should also add that I disagree with some of the comments above on the Seasprite purchase. In my view the decision to purchase them was a complete hospital pass - a probable frigate killer in 2030. For a completely maritime dependent nation like NZ, thats a very big problem (someone needs to go and re-read their history on the early days of NZ efforts in WW I - such as in McGibbons Blue-Water Rationale. The assumption that the JATF will be free to sail the oceans without opposition is fatally flawed - a large proportion of the world's subs now call the Asia-Pacific home). Getting back to Seasprites - to replace the SH-2G(I) at that time (and the avionics will need an expensive upgrade then) adds probably a billion to the procurement demands. To spread out the spending over a 30-year period would have been much smarter). On top of all that, to sell the 5 current seasprites to Peru is madness (there ain't no more unless we buy the Egyptian ones).

Chis73
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Has anyone heard any noises about a helicopter for the future tanker as part of the MPSC procurement (seemingly to be in service by 2018)? One hopes that this has not been overlooked or that the poor wee Seasprite is expected to fulfill such a primarily logistical role. Something bigger really is needed. A big cargo-carrying helo, but one also compatible with deck ops. We would seem to have too few NH90s to assign one to the Endeavour replacement on a regular basis. So what are our options? My view, in order of increasing cost:

a) the usual do nothing option. Don't embark a helo on the future tanker. Hope some kind of ad-hoc arrangement can be worked out when the need arises. Rely on the too-small Seasprite and the current NH90s (even though the TTH version is not that suited for marine operations, and currently there are some surprising corrosion issues in even the NFH version if the Dutch & French reports are to be believed). Likely to often result in no helicopter (or one too small) being onboard when one is needed.
This is the default status quo for NZGs and ends up costing the taxpayer huge sums of money in the long term one way or the other.
b) rely on a private contractor, like the US Maritime Support Command does, with Pumas. This could create some interesting issues around civilians on a navy vessel (unless the future tanker was operated as a civilian vessel - not a smart move in my opinion for a tiny navy like RNZN)
Do not think it would be desirable or cost effective.
c) buy something secondhand. This introduces another aircraft type to support (in very small numbers). The Blackhawk would be probably be the best bet here (as the MH-60R is in service with the RAN). Perhaps something upgraded to the MH-60S version. Or some version of the Puma or Super Puma. Many of the options in this category may not be optimally suited for shipboard operation (ie missing electrically folding tails & rotors), and probably no rear cargo ramp either.
No. Second hand gear not really an option. Will cost us more in the long term and in 10 - 15 years we are looking at replacements. Secondly introducing another type which in itself increases costs for NZDF.
d) purchase some more new NH90s (a navalised TTH version preferably). This would make the most sense from a logistical standpoint as it would save having to support an additional helicopter type. But a navalised TTH as yet does not exist (there is a troop transport NFH - built for the Dutch, but it lacks a rear ramp), although the Italians supposedly have 10 TTH on order for their navy. NH90 production is also running years behind schedule - so it is unlikely that any aircraft ordered now could be delivered by 2017.
According to Airbus Helicopters the only difference between the NH90 and the NFH is the systems Military Helicopter - NH90 NFH - Airbus Helicopters. IIRC I believe it is possible to have a NFH with or without the ramp. Therefore a specific navalised TTH variant is not needed because the existing NH90 variants are for an intents and purposes marinised, except for the deck locking mechanism. Once they get the corrosion issue sorted, which they will, then this would be my prefered option.
e) buy something else new. This option is highly likely to be discarded on cost grounds. Best bet here from a timing perspective might be the AW101. The RN is currently taking over the RAFs Merlins and navalising them to HC.4 standard (ie producing exactly the type of helo I think we require - a big navalised cargo helicopter with a ramp). Norway has also just ordered 16 AW101. NZ buying the AW101 (say compatible to Merlin HC.4 standard) would solve a lot of issues for Army as well (it could carry a Pinz internally and be much more useful for lifting artillery). I guess maybe 4 would be needed (one for the tanker, and one or two available for army, one in maintenance). Might even be a better option on the Canterbury too. Would need a C-17 to be air-transportable (hello Australia?) But the AW101 is an expensive helicopter to buy and operate (it would probably use the same engine as the NH90 though).
I too had thought of 3 or 4 navilised Merlins in a heavy lift role, but like you say cost does rear its head. If the Army replaced its 105mm LW Pack Howitzers with the M777 155mm Howitzer then maybe the Merlins would be ideal, plus as you say on the MSC. According to wiki the M777 weighs 3420 kg and according to the RNZAF their NH90s can lift 3200 kg. Interestingly, when they lift the current 105s with the UH1H they have to break the guns down, but the NH90 lifts the gun whole and then some. So that sort of negates some of the argument for the Merlin. However having said that, having the gun and ammo lifted in one lift means that the gun is operational a lot quicker.

My own opinion is that their are good rational and logical arguments for four navalised Merlins in RNZAF service however, I think that given the costs of acquisition and operation, they would be unaffordable unfortunately.
Any opinions from the group on the above?

I should also add that I disagree with some of the comments above on the Seasprite purchase. In my view the decision to purchase them was a complete hospital pass - a probable frigate killer in 2030. For a completely maritime dependent nation like NZ, thats a very big problem (someone needs to go and re-read their history on the early days of NZ efforts in WW I - such as in McGibbons Blue-Water Rationale. The assumption that the JATF will be free to sail the oceans without opposition is fatally flawed - a large proportion of the world's subs now call the Asia-Pacific home). Getting back to Seasprites - to replace the SH-2G(I) at that time (and the avionics will need an expensive upgrade then) adds probably a billion to the procurement demands. To spread out the spending over a 30-year period would have been much smarter). On top of all that, to sell the 5 current seasprites to Peru is madness (there ain't no more unless we buy the Egyptian ones).

Chis73
I haven't read McGibbon. I'll have to acquire a copy at some stage. I agree with what you say about the apparent assumption about the JATF sailing without opposition. However remember also that the main assumption is that the JATF will be sailing as part of a coalition and therefore will be under the protective umbrella of others. The kiwi pollies don't see the need to exert themselves actually having to provide that protection. They like to take and only give when they really have to.

My own opinion is that we should field a NH90 and NFH force acquiring more NH90 TTHs in the short term and NFHs in the longer with sustainable purchases of both over the next 10 years so that when the SH2(I)s are due for replacement we will have replacements in place. The extra TTHs will enhance our airlift capability which really does need enhancing. One other acquisition I would like to see and I do think is necessary for the JATF is 9 -12 Tiger ARH helos. They would provide some CAS for the Army. They could be operated by the army under the same methodology as 6 Sqn with the RNZAF doing the maintenance etc. Reactive the NZ Army Aviation Corp and form a new Sqn etc., giving it an RNZAF number. I know it costs money and the pollies and bean counters will knock it back, however I do see this as quite a necessary capability for a JATF. Since we don't have a ACF we need this capability. We don't have enough Sprites to do this and it is debatable whether or not a ground attack capability could be integrated into the I's without causing major ructions.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Has anyone heard any noises about a helicopter for the future tanker as part of the MPSC procurement (seemingly to be in service by 2018)? One hopes that this has not been overlooked or that the poor wee Seasprite is expected to fulfill such a primarily logistical role. Something bigger really is needed.
Everything I have seen indicates that the Seasprite will be assigned to the Endeavour replacement. Pretty sure the Minister, in announcing the Seasprite purchase, advised the increase in numbers of helicopter-capable platforms was one of the justifications. Even a smallish copter like the Seasprite will be a big step up from the current Endeavour. From memory, the RFP sought costed options for a Chinook-capable deck, but that was presumably to facilitate cooperation with allies.

NZDF is a small operation, and I can't see it running to more that three helicopter types. If there is a dedicated maritime helicopter, it should be able to work from all naval platforms from the OPVs up to the Canterbury and Endeavour. That puts a pretty significant size cap on it. The alternative would be 'marinising' an AW109 for the OPVs, and getting a naval version of the NH90 for larger vessels. As you point out, there have been (hopefully teething) corrosion problems with the NFH, and I'm not sure how long the AW109 would last in the salty southern seas. I think we will be stuck with a single small/medium maritime helo for the foreseeable future.

I should also add that I disagree with some of the comments above on the Seasprite purchase. In my view the decision to purchase them was a complete hospital pass - a probable frigate killer in 2030. For a completely maritime dependent nation like NZ, thats a very big problem (someone needs to go and re-read their history on the early days of NZ efforts in WW I - such as in McGibbons Blue-Water Rationale. The assumption that the JATF will be free to sail the oceans without opposition is fatally flawed - a large proportion of the world's subs now call the Asia-Pacific home). Getting back to Seasprites - to replace the SH-2G(I) at that time (and the avionics will need an expensive upgrade then) adds probably a billion to the procurement demands. To spread out the spending over a 30-year period would have been much smarter). On top of all that, to sell the 5 current seasprites to Peru is madness (there ain't no more unless we buy the Egyptian ones).
As I see it, the choice wasn't between new(ish) Seasprites and Romeo/Lynx/SuperPuma/whatever. but between new(ish) Seasprites and existing Seasprites. The latter option has too few airframes, and they have flogged pretty hard for just this reason. The pool of money is limited, and buying a top-of-the-line chopper would have meant giving up something else big, such as the Endeavour replacement. The SH-2G(I) purchase strikes me as a pragmatic decision under the circumstances. God knows, there are enough big items of defence equipment coming up for replacement that we need to accept 80% solutions sometimes.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The OPV specifications outlined above will be primarily be for a long hull OPV in its fundamental bread and butter role, which will take on modules to perform a variety of directed roles. viz a "Corvette" like tasking with respect to the lower-mid spectrum of Chapter VII combat events in support of the larger assetts. They will not be corvettes 24/7/365. But we would have the capacity to sent one OPV into that environment. I want that to be clearly reiterated and comprehended.

You could look at these OPVs as "Light" Absalons because in many respects they are a morphing of the Thetis/Knud R/Absalon capabilities and into a standardized hull. In some ways this kind of like a modernised StanFlex 3000 design that became the larger Absalon due to the Danes requiring a Sealift capacity. With the Endeavour replacement. the CY replacement (and as I have proposed retention of the CY in a pure Sealift/Training role (at a BLOC readiness) we will be well sorted in that area. Especially that the LWSV and the OPVs will also have some Supply capability even if it is just six TCUs. Range, noted is a minimun incidently. It will depend on tasking.

I like the Absalon also but I would rather have 4-5 of what I have proposed - effectively Absalon like without the - unnecessary sealift conpoment for IPV/vehicles.

A third Frigate would be nice however, it is only ever going to be an option and 20 years away. I would rather work through a coherant replacement programme for Endeavour, LWSV. IPV/OPVs, CY and then the 2 Anzacs plus any further vessels.
Yes your coherent strategy would work in a rational and logical manner but we are talking about kiwi pollies who aren't known for being rational and logical especially in defence matters. I wasn't necessarily looking at the Absalons sealift capabilities thinking of other possibilities for that space. It would make such a nice mission bay :) :) Talking of frigates I think more could be done with the Absalon design than the Danes have done with the Ivers. V could have a bit of a play. The other thing I'd be interested in with an ANZAC replacement is the talked about RAN replacement using the F105 hull. I do like the T26 because it does have some good points, but the F105 ull design replacement is being mooted as an ASW frigate and considering where we live that would have to be a capability that the RNZN must be really good at. Given the size of the hull, ~ 7k tonnes plenty of room for other capabilities such as a 2 helo hangar (NFH size), pus we could look at the Kongsberg NSM SSM. It is not Harpoon but it doesn't need to be and anyway Harpoon is soon to be replaced, therefore in the long term Harpoon would not be a wise acquisition for us. However we do need a SSM on our frigates and I would even suggest the capability on our LHD :) The airborne variant is the JSM which the RAAF are getting for their F35s and I am sure we could have it on the P3s and P8s :)
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Agree with most of what has been said of late in regards to the JATF, tiger being one of those item.

On the heavy lift I think it is one area that would benifit both the NZDF& ADF if you were to aqquire some CH-47F 3-4 airframes. The benifits for the future JATF are enormous everything from low intensity operation ( lots of stores to move in support) to HADR in the SP working with RAAF C27J

http://www.janes.com/article/35527/nigerian-navy-considers-surplus-sea-knight-and-seasprite-helos
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Agree with most of what has been said of late in regards to the JATF, tiger being one of those item.

On the heavy lift I think it is one area that would benifit both the NZDF& ADF if you were to aqquire some CH-47F 3-4 airframes. The benifits for the future JATF are enormous everything from low intensity operation ( lots of stores to move in support) to HADR in the SP working with RAAF C27J

Nigerian Navy considers surplus Sea Knight and Seasprite helos - IHS Jane's 360
No to Chooks. To bloody expensive to acquire and operate. That's reason why we're not looking at Merlin which is cheaper than chooks.
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
A few thoughts re naval helos:

I wouldn't go for romeos/sieras as by the time we would be introducing them, the USN will be thinking about introducing some kind of tilt rotor variant. [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Vertical_Lift"]Future Vertical Lift - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The 8 (+1) NH90s we have costed something like NZD$770 (including spares, support etc). That was for basic TTH configuration. NFHs and their systems will cost much more per unit, and some of the above posts are talking large numbers. Spending large here will require significant extra funding as the period we are talking about is already going to involve a lot of spending on defence. Doubleing and up-specing our help fleet may cost us in other areas. While I agree that this kind of capability is a must for our frigates, it may be more fiscally practical to operate something cheaper (to buy and run) from the OPVs. Arguably the OPVs can be speced for an NH90, but ordinarily cage a different bird. Marinised NH90TTH for future CY/END sounds good. We will also need a lot more pilots and aircrew.

Fully equipped ASW/ASuW NFH90 is a big jump in capability from the non-dipping sonar sprites we have. In the interim, I would like to see our current fleet and crews capability boosted (dipping sonar, new torpedoes). Start building the skills and institutional knowledge now.

Thanks
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
A few thoughts re naval helos:

I wouldn't go for romeos/sieras as by the time we would be introducing them, the USN will be thinking about introducing some kind of tilt rotor variant. Future Vertical Lift - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 8 (+1) NH90s we have costed something like NZD$770 (including spares, support etc). That was for basic TTH configuration. NFHs and their systems will cost much more per unit, and some of the above posts are talking large numbers. Spending large here will require significant extra funding as the period we are talking about is already going to involve a lot of spending on defence. Doubleing and up-specing our help fleet may cost us in other areas. While I agree that this kind of capability is a must for our frigates, it may be more fiscally practical to operate something cheaper (to buy and run) from the OPVs. Arguably the OPVs can be speced for an NH90, but ordinarily cage a different bird. Marinised NH90TTH for future CY/END sounds good. We will also need a lot more pilots and aircrew.

Fully equipped ASW/ASuW NFH90 is a big jump in capability from the non-dipping sonar sprites we have. In the interim, I would like to see our current fleet and crews capability boosted (dipping sonar, new torpedoes). Start building the skills and institutional knowledge now.

Thanks
This is exactly why I don't believe we need to replace our sprites (in 10-20years) one for one with NFH (or similar for that matter) but rather a mix of NFH/NH90 depending on role (this is obviously come OPV replacement time, not current OPV) as sub tracking/hunting is completely different to ship to ship/shore transfers and everything in between and is either overkill or not ideal dependant on situation.

NFH and NH can be interchanged to suit a mission however safe to say frigates would routinely embark NFH, future End would best use NH and OPVs can swing between both depending, also remembering they do not always require an organic helo to begin with.

The RAN has already replaced their seakings with NH90 so by the time we need to replace the sprites we will have a SME for any lessons learnt to implement alongside our base knowledge from our sporadic RNZAF NH90/A109 exposure with the RNZN.

Agreed on numbers, I do not see an increase if any and maybe even a slight decrease say 7-8 (4 + 3/4 NFH/NH respectively) due to costs involved and timeline. Even if we did go with a cheaper type it would still be a big hit and as it is would cost around the same as NZs current 90 fleet if not more considering NFH specs and going off the RNZAF purchase, and all at a demanding period financially by then as well. Another factor on fleet size would be no change in number of pilots with maybe just an extra crewy each frame as per their air force brothers.

Another bonus of navy getting a few standard 90s in the mix is that they could supplement 3 sqn more readily on land ops, something seasprites are not particularly suited to, as I also do not see air force getting anymore NH90s anytime soon.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The thing about remaining with the NH90 and the NFH is that there are synergies from having basically the same fleet. We know that in 10 - 15 years we will have to replace the Sprites and as has been suggested by only buying 3 - 4 NFHs is a very false economy. You cannot swap and change between the NFH and the NH90 because of the systems. The radar is permanently installed, hence transferring the radar and accompanying coolant system is a major undertaking. Therefore a one for one replacement of Sprites by NFHs would be the most appropriate measure. If as suggested 3 - 4 NFHs were acquired then all you have is 3 - 4 ASW and ASuW capable helos with the certainity under the rule of threes that only 1 will be fully operational at any given time. Actually 9 give you certainty of having 3 operational at given time. The important thing to remember is that the RNZN helos first and main tasking is ASW and ASuW with anything else being of secondary priority.

The synergies I referred too, are related to having a fleet of one type. Acquiring extra NH90s are not going to cost as much as the initial purchase because they will be bought with more units being sold and production is at full rates of production. Of course the NFHs will cost extra but that is par for the course considering its systems. With these extra aircraft it probably would be a wise to buy 2 extra aircraft as attritional airframes for spares, just as we did with the original acquisition. I would also suggest giving serious consideration to acquiring a full flight simulator as well. I realise that this is an expensive package but it is based on working on an existing RNZAF aircraft and utilising a second and possibly third tranche methodology.

This approach would be cost effective in the long term because we would not be introducing a new aircraft type along with all its associated costs and on going logistical expenses over its subsequent life cycle. Instead we would be leveraging, if that's the correct term, an existing aircraft type and apart from the acquisition costs and associated costs because of the NFH specific systems, it's a lot cheaper an acquiring another type. Finally with the exit of the Sprites there is 1 less type costing the RNZAF money in seperate technical, logistical etc., support.

I am not advocating that the NZG go out and buy extra TTHs tomorrow although that would be nice :) These acquisitions could be done over time, for example the NFH acquisition doesn't have to be looked at for another 5 - 7 years. However the TTH second tranche acquisition could be looked at in conjunction with the RNZAF air transport project and next years DWP.

Funding is always an issue and at some stage the NZG is going to have to make a choice, either start funding NZDF properly or if they don't NZDF is going to fall apart from resource starvation. However if they are willing to gradually increase NZDF funding to around 1.7% GDP in real dollars and be prepared to inject bulk capital funding over and above the annual NZDF budget in order to provide good capability such as suggested above then there is the probability that NZDF will be able to fullfill the JATF requirement properly and not half assed.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I should also add that I disagree with some of the comments above on the Seasprite purchase. In my view the decision to purchase them was a complete hospital pass - a probable frigate killer in 2030. For a completely maritime dependent nation like NZ, thats a very big problem (someone needs to go and re-read their history on the early days of NZ efforts in WW I - such as in McGibbons Blue-Water Rationale. The assumption that the JATF will be free to sail the oceans without opposition is fatally flawed - a large proportion of the world's subs now call the Asia-Pacific home). Getting back to Seasprites - to replace the SH-2G(I) at that time (and the avionics will need an expensive upgrade then) adds probably a billion to the procurement demands. To spread out the spending over a 30-year period would have been much smarter). On top of all that, to sell the 5 current seasprites to Peru is madness (there ain't no more unless we buy the Egyptian ones).

Chis73
There are a sizable number of solid ex USN SH-2G airframes still stored at AMARC available for regeneration that can be zero houred and fitted out with updated COTS systems by Kaman. No different to the actual helicopters we now have. Going down this was one of the options looked at if the ex OZ Sprites were purchased elsewhere. It would be relatively straightfoward to to provide maritime utility versions of the Sprite under FMS from this AMARC source for roles on OPVs and CY/Big E if we wanted more of a general maritime rotary capability.

Also would you mind explaining to us further your point about how in fact the acquisition of the Sprites will somehow mean that we are less likely to replace the Anzacs. Is it based on the rational of simply cost factors of doing both projects within a shortened timeframe?

Buying the replacement Sprites meant that we did not have to delay the Anzac upgrade, could source a better Endeavour replacement and keep us in the shipboard ASW business until the next frigates arrive.
 
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RegR

Well-Known Member
The thing about remaining with the NH90 and the NFH is that there are synergies from having basically the same fleet. We know that in 10 - 15 years we will have to replace the Sprites and as has been suggested by only buying 3 - 4 NFHs is a very false economy. You cannot swap and change between the NFH and the NH90 because of the systems. The radar is permanently installed, hence transferring the radar and accompanying coolant system is a major undertaking. Therefore a one for one replacement of Sprites by NFHs would be the most appropriate measure. If as suggested 3 - 4 NFHs were acquired then all you have is 3 - 4 ASW and ASuW capable helos with the certainity under the rule of threes that only 1 will be fully operational at any given time. Actually 9 give you certainty of having 3 operational at given time. The important thing to remember is that the RNZN helos first and main tasking is ASW and ASuW with anything else being of secondary priority.

The synergies I referred too, are related to having a fleet of one type. Acquiring extra NH90s are not going to cost as much as the initial purchase because they will be bought with more units being sold and production is at full rates of production. Of course the NFHs will cost extra but that is par for the course considering its systems. With these extra aircraft it probably would be a wise to buy 2 extra aircraft as attritional airframes for spares, just as we did with the original acquisition. I would also suggest giving serious consideration to acquiring a full flight simulator as well. I realise that this is an expensive package but it is based on working on an existing RNZAF aircraft and utilising a second and possibly third tranche methodology.

This approach would be cost effective in the long term because we would not be introducing a new aircraft type along with all its associated costs and on going logistical expenses over its subsequent life cycle. Instead we would be leveraging, if that's the correct term, an existing aircraft type and apart from the acquisition costs and associated costs because of the NFH specific systems, it's a lot cheaper an acquiring another type. Finally with the exit of the Sprites there is 1 less type costing the RNZAF money in seperate technical, logistical etc., support.

I am not advocating that the NZG go out and buy extra TTHs tomorrow although that would be nice :) These acquisitions could be done over time, for example the NFH acquisition doesn't have to be looked at for another 5 - 7 years. However the TTH second tranche acquisition could be looked at in conjunction with the RNZAF air transport project and next years DWP.

Funding is always an issue and at some stage the NZG is going to have to make a choice, either start funding NZDF properly or if they don't NZDF is going to fall apart from resource starvation. However if they are willing to gradually increase NZDF funding to around 1.7% GDP in real dollars and be prepared to inject bulk capital funding over and above the annual NZDF budget in order to provide good capability such as suggested above then there is the probability that NZDF will be able to fullfill the JATF requirement properly and not half assed.
I am not suggesting swapping equipment between airframes but swapping entire airframes between ships, either NFH or NH, dependant on mission and lets be honest most missions our ships do, frigates included, are not warlike in nature. Training for combat is not true combat. The current piracy patrols are the first time in a few years they have deployed with an actual intent that will utilise the helos systems and even then is not to its potential.

ASW and ASuW is only priority on 1/3 of the capable fleet (ANZACs), semi-priority on another 1/3 (OPVs) and low priority on the remaining 1/3 (MRV, End 2) whereas for the most of the time (bar training) all this capability is actually wasted and the basic task of just being a helicopter is all that is needed for a very large percentage of an RNZN helo detachment. Supporting a DOC task, islands operation or army maritime excercise with a NFH is rather a waste and although will still be more useful than a current sprite, alittle overkill vs a stock NH and arguably a more exspensive endeavour. I'd go so far as to say we could aqquire 3 marinised NH90s for the price of 2 NFH90s, and for a small fleet this will add up. If we did not aqquire all the ex-RAN frames for the fleet at those prices do you really think we will get more new builds when the time comes? For example RNZAF 90s are the same, 8 NH90s for 16 hueys (more than double capacity, range, performance etc) therefore other than maybe full availability is not really an issue especially since if anything their main customer has gotten smaller over the years.

Also on numbers whilst I get the rule of 3s, in the same token it is not a hard and fast rule but merely a best case formula and as we well know in a perfect world it would be law however in the real world this is just not the case. We have to adjust accordingly and just make do otherwise we'll just go backwards in other areas. If we followed the rule to the letter we would have 3 MRVs, 3 tankers, 3 LWSVs, 6 frigates, 9 OPVs and so on but this is not feasable, doable or even warranted really. A number of defence capabilities are understrength by this rule, 757s, battalions etc but we just have utilise other options and make due rather than lose it or something else completely, a fine balancing act sometimes.
 

htbrst

Active Member
. It would be relatively straightfoward to to provide maritime utility versions of the Sprite under FMS from this AMARC source for roles on OPVs and CY/Big E if we wanted more of a general maritime rotary capability.
It would be a nice way to complete the circle given thats what the Seasprite was initially designed and built for before becoming an ASW helicopter :)

In related news, the simulators that come part of the package are receiving updates to bring them up-to-spec by the same company that provides the T-6 simulators.

CAE - Corporate

The contract is for 15 years so that gives an indication of how long they plan on lasting
 

Reaver

New Member
Has anyone heard any noises about a helicopter for the future tanker as part of the MPSC procurement (seemingly to be in service by 2018)? One hopes that this has not been overlooked or that the poor wee Seasprite is expected to fulfill such a primarily logistical role. Something bigger really is needed. A big cargo-carrying helo, but one also compatible with deck ops. We would seem to have too few NH90s to assign one to the Endeavour replacement on a regular basis.

Chis73
Chris, unsure if you are aware but the "Endeavour Replacement" is now the Maritime Sustainment Capability rather than the Maitime Projection & Sustainment Capability i.e. they have removed the Projection element from the scope of the project.

Does this effect your arguement about the ships helicopter needing to be a "primary logistical role" with the removal of projection of logisitcs over the shore? If the current SH-2G(NZ) is adequate for Endeavour then your do nothing (Status Quo) option of using SG-2G(I) for MSC as the 2 Capabilities are like for like makes sense.

If it does not effect your argument then I would be interested aound your basis that a refueling vessel needs a large helicopter.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Chris, unsure if you are aware but the "Endeavour Replacement" is now the Maritime Sustainment Capability rather than the Maitime Projection & Sustainment Capability i.e. they have removed the Projection element from the scope of the project.

Does this effect your arguement about the ships helicopter needing to be a "primary logistical role" with the removal of projection of logisitcs over the shore? If the current SH-2G(NZ) is adequate for Endeavour then your do nothing (Status Quo) option of using SG-2G(I) for MSC as the 2 Capabilities are like for like makes sense.

If it does not effect your argument then I would be interested aound your basis that a refueling vessel needs a large helicopter.
Did not know they changed it, so a JSS type or Karel Doorman ship been ruled out?
 
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