And a U.S. Navy F-18 was shot down by an Iraqi MiG. I forget the type but it was on the opening night of Operation Desert Storm. Apparently the Iraqi pilot somehow got into firing position while avoiding detection from the local AWACS aircraft and then made a clean escape. I think Saddam made a huge error in not using his Air Force more aggressively, it was his only arm that stood a chance at disrupting the air campaign.
War Against ISIS
- Thread starter spikehades
- Start date
It was a MiG-25, and if I remember correctly a BVR engagement with a semi-active radar guided missile. Pretty sure that was the case anyway, I'm sure if I'm incorrect someone here will have the right info.
After a while, it became pretty clear to Saddam that his air force was not up to the task of defending Iraq's airspace; hence his decision to ground it for the duration of the campaign. It is telling that the bulk of Allied losses throughout the campaign were from ground based air defence weapons, not Iraqi fighters. Most of the problems faced by the Iraqi air force during the Iran/Iraq war [poor training, low hours, inability to plan large strike packages, etc] were not rectified by 1990/1991; in fact, in some areas the Iraqis got worse. It also didn't help that Saddam had the habit of purging the various services of those he suspected were plotting or were disloyal.
A very interesting video -
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUABhmIbyg4"]Patrick Cockburn: The IS Caliphate and the West's Wars: Challenge to Religious Pluralism - YouTube[/nomedia]
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The problem with your argument is...
Why should the Soviet march on Berlin. Besides grabbing Eastern Prussia, why should they be motivated to blood heavily in an attempt to destroy fascism?
Now I understand the situation is far from the same, but the Kurds have excellent reasons to want ISIS gone, starting with the atrocities ISIS has committed against civilian populations, including Kurdish ones. They might not be able to clear out ISIS themselves, but with good support and a clear promise of a Kurdish state in the near future, they could certainly be a major if the not the main force against ISIS.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Back then they have had some good pilots. Now, not so. For 20 years the Iraqi airforce was restricted by the coalition and from Saddam himself from doing much. The pool of capable training pilots must be pretty shallow. Any captured jets likely didn't include motivated service technicians but the biggest obstacle is how do you get any training done when experienced coalition pilots are lying in wait.
Some hopeful signs that the disparate opposition factions may be coalescing, perhaps willing to put aside their differences to combat their common foes, I.e. ISIS first then Assad eventually. The implication that the Syrian Kurds may be willing to do battle oupside their territories is intriguing. Something that should be nurtured and encouraged. Maybe something thateven Turkey might be willing to support. Fingers crossed this leads to something substantive.
Kobane's defenders ally with Syria's mainstream opposition
Kobane's defenders ally with Syria's mainstream opposition
By Jonathon Burch 15 hours ago
ISTANBUL, Turkey – Syria's main Kurdish rebel group, the People's Protection Units (YPG), confirmed Sunday it was fighting alongside other rebel forces against Islamic State (ISIS) in the besieged town of Kobane and other Kurdish areas.
It said it wanted to strengthen this alliance which was essential to defeating the jihadists.
The announcement appeared to be the strongest rapprochement yet between the YPG and the Western- and Arab-backed Free Syrian Army (FSA), who have largely been at odds throughout Syria's civil war and at times have even clashed with each other. The union could mark a significant milestone in the fight against ISIS which controls large parts of Syria and Iraq.
“The resistance shown by us, the Kurdish People's Protection Units (YPG), and certain factions of the Free Syrian Army (FSA) is a guarantee for defeating ISIS's terrorism in the region. The success of the revolution is subject to the progression of this relationship between all factions and forces of good in this country,” the YPG said in a written statement.
“We can also confirm that there is coordination between us and the important factions of the FSA in the northern countryside of Aleppo: Afrin, Kobane, and al-Jazira. Currently, there are factions and several battalions of the FSA fighting on our side against the ISIS terrorists,” it said.
There have already been reports of battlefield alliances. While it follows a similar joint statement by the YPG and FSA last month, Sunday's declaration appeared to go beyond the need to combat ISIS, indicating the YPG was committed to helping the whole country, not just Kurdish areas.
“We as the YPG reaffirm that we will meet all of our responsibilities towards Rojava and Syria in general,” it said, referring to the Kurdish name for the Kurdish region in northern Syria.
Kobane's defenders ally with Syria's mainstream opposition
Kobane's defenders ally with Syria's mainstream opposition
By Jonathon Burch 15 hours ago
ISTANBUL, Turkey – Syria's main Kurdish rebel group, the People's Protection Units (YPG), confirmed Sunday it was fighting alongside other rebel forces against Islamic State (ISIS) in the besieged town of Kobane and other Kurdish areas.
It said it wanted to strengthen this alliance which was essential to defeating the jihadists.
The announcement appeared to be the strongest rapprochement yet between the YPG and the Western- and Arab-backed Free Syrian Army (FSA), who have largely been at odds throughout Syria's civil war and at times have even clashed with each other. The union could mark a significant milestone in the fight against ISIS which controls large parts of Syria and Iraq.
“The resistance shown by us, the Kurdish People's Protection Units (YPG), and certain factions of the Free Syrian Army (FSA) is a guarantee for defeating ISIS's terrorism in the region. The success of the revolution is subject to the progression of this relationship between all factions and forces of good in this country,” the YPG said in a written statement.
“We can also confirm that there is coordination between us and the important factions of the FSA in the northern countryside of Aleppo: Afrin, Kobane, and al-Jazira. Currently, there are factions and several battalions of the FSA fighting on our side against the ISIS terrorists,” it said.
There have already been reports of battlefield alliances. While it follows a similar joint statement by the YPG and FSA last month, Sunday's declaration appeared to go beyond the need to combat ISIS, indicating the YPG was committed to helping the whole country, not just Kurdish areas.
“We as the YPG reaffirm that we will meet all of our responsibilities towards Rojava and Syria in general,” it said, referring to the Kurdish name for the Kurdish region in northern Syria.
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A very good book on the subject is ''Iran-Iraq War in the Air 1980-1988'' [Bishop and Cooper]. They did have some good pilots but considering Iraq had no problems getting aircraft replaced and benefited from help provided by numerous countries; the performance of the Iraqi air force during the 8 year war - especially during the first few years - was pretty dismal. Some of the pilots who were sent to France for conversion to the F1 and were considered good by Iraqi standards were not considered good enough by the French and were sent back. Some apparently later went to the Soviet Union and qualified on MiGs and Suhkois. In contrast, the Iranian air force - despite having many pilots purged and later facing an acute spares and aircraft replacement shortage - acquited itself very well. Off course what made the difference was that the Iranians had a cadre of pilots and ground crew who were trained by the U.S. and the Shah ensured his air force had a huge stockpile of spares and munitions.
Meanwhile, Turkey has decided to allow Kurdish fighters to cross the border into Syria.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...n-fight-against-isil-2014102093610603527.html
No?
Korea. NATO throughout the Cold War. Afghanistan.
You're sounding like USAians referring to France in 2003, ignoring many years of history. One disagreement on policy, one failure to do exactly what you want & instead show some independence, & they suddenly become enemies.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Not being an ally is not to say they are necessarily an enemy.
It's not like other countries in NATO haven't acted out of pure self interest and gave f* all about the opinion of it's allies nameing them the old europe and all that while the same allies bled for said country in the other sandbox...
While I don't think that Turkey's current actions regarding Syria and Iraq will benefit in the long run I can on the other hand understand Turkey's reluctance to support fractions which from their perspective may become very troublesome to them.
While I don't think that Turkey's current actions regarding Syria and Iraq will benefit in the long run I can on the other hand understand Turkey's reluctance to support fractions which from their perspective may become very troublesome to them.
cdxbow
Well-Known Member
Turkey has opened the border to Kurdish fighters
It is being reported that Turkey has opened the border to allow Iraqi Kurdish fighters to use Turkish territory to support the besieged Syrian Kurdish city of Kobani. A bit of pressure from the US I imagine and cheap oil from the KRG. Turkey seems also to be keen to keep up negotiations with the PKK, which is important for the coalition.
Much as the says US downplays Kobanis importance, because of it's proximity to the Turkish border with a bucket load of the worlds media watching, it is important. A win here is vital and I bet they are doing as much as they can.
It is being reported that Turkey has opened the border to allow Iraqi Kurdish fighters to use Turkish territory to support the besieged Syrian Kurdish city of Kobani. A bit of pressure from the US I imagine and cheap oil from the KRG. Turkey seems also to be keen to keep up negotiations with the PKK, which is important for the coalition.
Much as the says US downplays Kobanis importance, because of it's proximity to the Turkish border with a bucket load of the worlds media watching, it is important. A win here is vital and I bet they are doing as much as they can.
The US in particular has not exactly distinguished ourselves as a reliable and trustworthy partner to incur long-term costs. So I can't knock the Turks too hard on not wanting to be stuck holding the bag for support to fractious/potentially hostile (to the Turks) Kurds while ignoring a larger threat to them in the al-Assad regime.
Not everyone is going to agree on 100% of issues. Turkey agrees with the US on big issues, Russia, China, EU, etc etc. Im sure they will do everything to get rid of ISIS out of their territory. But beyond that different countries have different aims, objectives and priorities.
Turkey is a middle power, it can't fix Iraq, it can't fix Syria. Its struggled with its own Kurdish population. What it can do its prioritize some needs over others and create zones which are relatively secure.
If you choosing who to back, the Kurds seem to be a better bet. However, Kurds cover a huge group of people and Turkey isn't backing all of them.
Turkey perfers Iraqi Kurds to its own.
This is the problem sending troops in. Its not like there are two clear sides to this. There are many players all pushing for control. Who are you going to back and who are you going to fight.
Turkey is a middle power, it can't fix Iraq, it can't fix Syria. Its struggled with its own Kurdish population. What it can do its prioritize some needs over others and create zones which are relatively secure.
If you choosing who to back, the Kurds seem to be a better bet. However, Kurds cover a huge group of people and Turkey isn't backing all of them.
Turkey perfers Iraqi Kurds to its own.
This is the problem sending troops in. Its not like there are two clear sides to this. There are many players all pushing for control. Who are you going to back and who are you going to fight.
Indeed and hence the problem.
Take Saudi Arabia for example. It has has joined the Obama's ''coalition of the willing'' but is known to have at an early stage supported ''extremist'' groups in Syria. We know the Saudis have a past history of not only turning a blind eye to jihadists - as long as they operate way from Saudi shores - but also supporting what the West calls ''extremists'', whilst at the same time cooperating with the West on other issues when it suits Saudi interests. It is also telling that the ideology of groups like ISIS is similar or is based on the Wahabism practised by Saudi Arabia. Which begs the question: is Saudi Arabia really serious about dealing with ISIS or does it just want to weaken ISIS to the extent that ISIS does not pose a direct threat to the Saudis; in order for the Saudis to concentrate on other areas that might be in line with Saudi interests but are be damaging to Western interests; e.g. doing away with Assad merely to weaken Iran as part of the Sunni/Shia cold war currently being waged.
The Kurds I suspect will be very wary as to promises made to them by various countries. They haven't forgotten that in the past they have been played out after they weren't needed.
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It's how you're talking about Turkey - not as a friend, or even a country with which you have proper relations.
Turkey IS your ally, & has been for over 60 years. Turkish troops have fought alongside Canadian troops a few times in those decades.
But you're choosing to ignore that, because of a single disagreement over something which to Canada is remote & far from being a vital interest, but which is right on Turkey's borders & has powerful implications within Turkey.
Turkey is your ally because like you they are part of NATO. As has been pointed out by Swerve they have fought alongside you soldiers as well as ours. You mightn't like their politics but then they mightn't like yours. We fought against them and with them and we have a part on NZ that is forever part of Turkey, as is a part of Turkey that is forever part of NZ and Australia.
They have a very tough balancing act to play and what may suit the interests of other countries may in the long term be very damaging for Turkey. Personally, if other countries don't want to get more involved, I fail to see why they would expect Turkey to do so [never mind that Turkey is more concerned about the Kurds and wants Assad gone first before dealing with IS]. Pakistan was placed in a similar position before. It was under great American pressure to take certain steps with regards to Afghanistan and the Taliban; which would have been counter productive to Pakistan's own security interests but would have beeen in line with American interests.
Now that Turkey will allow Peshmerga fighers to cross it:s border to join the fight, hopefully arms and supplies can do so as well. A better way than raindrops to avoid ISIS getting their hands on the stuff.
That spate of 15 ISIS attacks in Iraq strikes me as a gambit to tie down KRG forces from joining the fight in Kobane and countering any move toward coordinated anti-ISIS effort.
That spate of 15 ISIS attacks in Iraq strikes me as a gambit to tie down KRG forces from joining the fight in Kobane and countering any move toward coordinated anti-ISIS effort.
The bomb attacks in Iraq are probably also intended to demoralise the Iraqi government and further widen the sectarian gulf that currently divides the Shia and Sunni community.
This article has interesting innformation on the Kurds and the signifance of Kobane.
Kobane explained: What's so special about it? - Middle East - Al Jazeera English
Erdogan's not so happy about the air drops.
http://www.defensenews.com/article/...-Airdrops-Kobane-Wrong-?odyssey=mod|nextstory
This article has interesting innformation on the Kurds and the signifance of Kobane.
Kobane explained: What's so special about it? - Middle East - Al Jazeera English
Erdogan's not so happy about the air drops.
http://www.defensenews.com/article/...-Airdrops-Kobane-Wrong-?odyssey=mod|nextstory
Holy crap, UK MOD released footage of an IS tank getting hit by a Brimstone missile. Watch the right of the explosion and you see the turret cartwheeling up into the air, never seen the like of it before.
RAF Strikes ISIS Main Battle Tank in Iraq | Military.com
RAF Strikes ISIS Main Battle Tank in Iraq | Military.com