Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[StingrayOZ]

I am very concerned at the different costs being quoted, they are all over the place and I get the impression that the different interest groups are inventing figures that support their arguments. .

Indeed it seems that way, with no hard numbers independently given.

There are two issues:

1) Local build. ASC is functioning, builds going along, we have already spent a lot of money to get things up and running. To amortize that cost we should have significant local builds of ships/boats (IMO) each achiving a target tighter/better on each build. Local production is really a management issue IMO. It do able but you need to set the right conditions and have a system to measure and manage the production, with a back up plan if it all goes pear shaped. However I personally think its entirely reasonable to build them here, with very minimal costs comparative to anywhere else that would build them.

2) Design. There is still no proven off the shelf design that will meet all of our requirements (IMO). Collins is what we have Soryu is closest because it actually exists, however it would be significantly slower transiting, worse indiscretion rates, still require integration with out systems and weapons so is still not MOTS. Im sure it could be modified, but increases risk and cost. That being said there may be benefits adopting the design and having an overseas builder ready to step in. Pretty much most of the Collins criticism could be leveled at the design/management rather than the physical construction.

IMO - modifications would include, combat system, torpedoes, harpoon, replacement of the AIP with 1 or 2 additional engines, changes to the snorkel, greater fuel storage.

Given the time frames, I think we realistically have to look upgrading/life extending the existing collins boats with new powertrain.

tbh I don't see the RAN/Australia giving up on subs. We have the money, the man power and the skill. Its just a big project (the biggest project, bigger than the NBN or any other Australian project) with significant risk.

Its akin to building a space program. You need a lot of pieces in place to be able to put it all together. We have most of those pieces, we have the capability, we have allies that are willing to help us "fill the gaps".

 

[Volkodav]

The thing many people miss is that Australia successfully conducted the Fast Track program to fix the multiple teething issues with the Collins class, incorporating a multitude of changes on hull four and five while under construction as well as the final configuration of the fixes on hull six. These mods were incorporated in the first three boats during major availabilities over several years.

The Replacement Combat System (RCS) and Heavy Weight Torpedo (HWT) replacement were also successfully integrated locally as were communications and ESM / ECM / surveillance systems. An extensive list of mods and fixes were developed, trialled, and when funded, implemented on the class over the years to improve performance, reliability and maintainability.

The greatest failings in sustainment were not of a technical nature but identified to be related to funding, management of the project and political will, with the common denominator being the Australian government, i.e. the owner of ASC, as well as calling the shots at the DMO and Department of Defence. Funny that, politicians, a sad collection of former political advisors, unionists, school teachers, lawyers, bankers, failed business people and various other power hungry misfits, can't run an engineering company, a procurement agency or a defence force. I wonder why.

 

[old faithful]

The thing many people miss is that Australia successfully conducted the Fast Track program to fix the multiple teething issues with the Collins class, incorporating a multitude of changes on hull four and five while under construction as well as the final configuration of the fixes on hull six. These mods were incorporated in the first three boats during major availabilities over several years.

The Replacement Combat System (RCS) and Heavy Weight Torpedo (HWT) replacement were also successfully integrated locally as were communications and ESM / ECM / surveillance systems. An extensive list of mods and fixes were developed, trialled, and when funded, implemented on the class over the years to improve performance, reliability and maintainability.

The greatest failings in sustainment were not of a technical nature but identified to be related to funding, management of the project and political will, with the common denominator being the Australian government, i.e. the owner of ASC, as well as calling the shots at the DMO and Department of Defence. Funny that, politicians, a sad collection of former political advisors, unionists, school teachers, lawyers, bankers, failed business people and various other power hungry misfits, can't run an engineering company, a procurement agency or a defence force. I wonder why.

Lol!
Tell em Volk!
You described the Labor party to a tee just there! (Just forgot to add ex olympic atheletes and rockstars for popularity voters)

Stewart Robert, 2IC defence, has achieved more than any on the left. While not perfect, (none of em are) he, s in the right portfolio.
Ex Army officer, I remember him as a shiny new Lt with hair.
Ran a successful buisness, and always had political ambitions.
What little hair he has left, will soon be gone!

 

[Volkodav]

There's a dearth of talent in politic in general generally crowding out and hamstringing the minority who display some level of competence. Most of the examples I listed were a shot at Labor, in particular under Gillard, my least favorite PM, but the banker comment was aimed squarely at Moore and Reith but also to a lesser degree Hockey.

Anyway, politics aside one of the quickest ways to drive a business into the ground is for non-professional owners to micro manage things, over ruling and ignoring the expert managers and technical specialists they may as well not have bothered hiring. In a nutshell that is what has happened with submarines and shipbuilding in Australia, micro management by successive governments on top of failing to place orders.

 

[Joe Black]

Germany fights for Australian submarine defence contract after Japan makes a bid for it.This could turn out to be really good for Australia, a bidding war. It is a buyer's dream isn't it?

 

[Volkodav]

Very interesting article, thanks for that. Some of linked articles are even more interesting i.e. $49 billion cost to the Australian economy if the new submarines are built overseas, Japanese option could cost double a local build, Japanese would likely repeat the mistakes of the AWD project (buying from a company that has never exported) etc. Very interesting reading, there are some very well thought out presentations being delivered to the shipbuilding inquiry, perhaps not the sort of stuff governments normally hear but exactly the sort of things they need to.

 

[weegee]

Ciws

hey guys I came across this today:
Pacific Sentinel: USA: possible Foreign Military Sale to Australia for Close-In Weapon System upgrades
Is this to modify/upgrade the ones that came off Bill and Ben? To go onto Canberra? or AWD?

 

[Tasman]

hey guys I came across this today:
Pacific Sentinel: USA: possible Foreign Military Sale to Australia for Close-In Weapon System upgrades
Is this to modify/upgrade the ones that came off Bill and Ben? To go onto Canberra? or AWD?

Interesting report. It mentions a total of up to 12 CIWS upgrades and 11 weapon stations so it looks like the RAN may be aiming for 11 deployable systems plus a spare. 3 would presumably be for the AWDs and as CIWS is not mounted on the Oz Anzacs it seems likely that the extras would be for the LHDs, Choules, training and perhaps for operationally deployed replenishment ships (Success was fitted with 2 CIWS mountings some years ago for trials but they were then removed and returned to the CIWS pool).
Tas

 

[Volkodav]

Interesting report. It mentions a total of up to 12 CIWS upgrades and 11 weapon stations so it looks like the RAN may be aiming for 11 deployable systems plus a spare. 3 would presumably be for the AWDs and as CIWS is not mounted on the Oz Anzacs it seems likely that the extras would be for the LHDs, Choules, training and perhaps for operationally deployed replenishment ships (Success was fitted with 2 CIWS mountings some years ago for trials but they were then removed and returned to the CIWS pool).
Tas

I believe three new systems were previously acquired for the AWDs meaning the upgrades are for the existing pool. As for the size of the existing pool there was one for each of the FFGs, one delivered on each of the LPHs and I am not sure but I believe there were more ordered for the DDGs back in the early 90s.

 

[Milne Bay]

I believe three new systems were previously acquired for the AWDs meaning the upgrades are for the existing pool. As for the size of the existing pool there was one for each of the FFGs, one delivered on each of the LPHs and I am not sure but I believe there were more ordered for the DDGs back in the early 90s.

Interesting.
How many - if any - of the existing Phalanx systems (not counting the 3 already purchased for the AWD's as they are likely already upgraded models) have been upgraded to Block 1B Baseline 2 systems?
Or are these the first of the old CIWS to undergo the upgrade?
MB

 

[Raven22]

Interesting.
How many - if any - of the existing Phalanx systems (not counting the 3 already purchased for the AWD's as they are likely already upgraded models) have been upgraded to Block 1B Baseline 2 systems?
Or are these the first of the old CIWS to undergo the upgrade?
MB

None of the phalanx have been upgraded yet. Which is a significant problem as the US stop supporting the 1A configuration at the end of the year. The phalanx for the AWDs need upgrading too. A big issue is whether it is actually worth installing upgraded mounts on the FFGs, since they will be retired so soon.

I think you'll find a couple of the upgraded phalanx will be installed on each LHD, which will release some typhoon mounts for other ships.

 

[aussienscale]

Cerberus in Lockdown

Just heard this on the radio, very little information as to what the situation is ? Anyone else have any further information ?

Victorian naval base HMAS Cerberus in lockdown, person arrested - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[PatH]

Romeo's

I noticed on the RAN Facebook page that the first of our new Romeos are on their way here, and all are due here by Mid-December. Will the Seahawks be taken out of action as the Romeos come online or will they both be operating at the same time? I.e Will they be used as training craft for the LHD or used for parts?

 

[PatH]

Romeo's

With the Romeo's I was Just curious to How they will be brought into service (1 for 1 With Seahawks or other?) and how long it will take until they are fully operational?

Sorry I can't post the link but it is on RAN Facebook page

 

[Joe Black]

Shipbuilder ASC headed for split into submarine and air warfare destroyer firms

No Cookies | The Advertiser

Interesting development. Will ASC become two companies?

 

[ADMk2]

With the Romeo's I was Just curious to How they will be brought into service (1 for 1 With Seahawks or other?) and how long it will take until they are fully operational?

Sorry I can't post the link but it is on RAN Facebook page

We are buying 24 MH-60R Romeos to replace the 16 S-70B2 Seahawks we currently operate and the 11 Seasprites we 'intended' to operate...

They will be operated by 725 (7 aircraft) and 816 Squadrons (17 aircraft) RAN and home-based at Nowra. Of this fleet 816 Sqn will maintain '8' aircraft as deployable aboard ship at any one time, with an obvious latent surge capacity available within the fleet if necessary.

I believe IOC is intended for 2016, so FOC should follow in 2017 or 2018 perhaps.

And funny you should mention the question about them now. The first Romeos arrived at Nowra just the other day, on 14 October 2014...

Tempest fails to stop Romeo's entrance in Australia | Navy Daily

 

[StingrayOZ]

UPDATE 1-Australian defence minister asks Japan to help develop new subs | Reuters

Officially asking for Japanese assistance with Subs.
Much speculation of what that means.
US perspective on deals.

IMO I still don't think this rules out Australian made and significant design locally. There should be a middle ground which will benefit both countries greatly.

 

[pussertas]

One step closer for an Australian Soryu: Japanese is building new Soryu with Li batteries instead of lead batteries +AIP....

One would have thought that any competent government would have directed DSTO/RAN to experiment with Li-iro and NiMH batteries.

When negotiating it's always best to be knowledgeable in the area under discussion! It leads to a lower pricing in an exchange of technologies.

Then again DSTO may have being researching these batteries for some years but be constrained by secrecy instructions?

Does anyone know?

 

[Joe Black]

UPDATE 1-Australian defence minister asks Japan to help develop new subs | Reuters

Officially asking for Japanese assistance with Subs.
Much speculation of what that means.
US perspective on deals.

IMO I still don't think this rules out Australian made and significant design locally. There should be a middle ground which will benefit both countries greatly.

I would think that the best of both world could be Soryu's hull design, Japanese drive trains, the rest will be designed locally using foreign components and parts. First two boats built in Japan, the rest built here in Australia.

 

[rockitten]

UPDATE 1-Australian defence minister asks Japan to help develop new subs | Reuters

Officially asking for Japanese assistance with Subs.
Much speculation of what that means.
US perspective on deals.

IMO I still don't think this rules out Australian made and significant design locally. There should be a middle ground which will benefit both countries greatly.

From what I see, most likely is that, at least Australia, US and Japan can join force to modify the Soryu design to fit Australian's requirement(s). And then one of the Japanese yard (most likely Kawasaki) will build the hull sections and all integration/assemble works will take place in Australia.