Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Samoa

Member
I see as of today the Nuship Canberra officially belongs to the Commonwealth of Australia! Woo Hoo haha.

For those who like BAE on Facebook would have seen this.
https://www.facebook.com/BAESystemsAustralia?hc_location=timeline
And due to sail from Williamstown on 28th October, arriving Garden Island 31st. Commissioning into the RAN on I believe November 28th. It should be standing room only on the flight deck as the pollies via for kudos....
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Just gunna drop this in here, DCNS has revealed their conventionally powered Barracuda (that's the next generation French SSN, the first to be launched in the next couple of years) and from a complete novice point of view, it looks pretty neat. It's called SMX Ocean.

I do get the whole 'not very keen on the French' aspect (plus AIP), just interested if the performance reqs and this seems to be the thread where merits of conventionals are debated so ;)

  • 4,700t
  • 14,000nm range (3 month autonomy)
  • AIP perf - continuous 14kt transit speed for 1 week
  • Power - 6 x diesel sets, 3 x Li Ion batteries, 2 x fuel cells
  • 2 deployable thruster pods
  • 'up to 34 weapons'
    • VPM style VLS for 6 MdCN
    • Torpedo/AShM/sub launched Mica
  • Deployable UUV/UAV capability

The graphic looks like it has a dry deck shelter integrated with the mast, presumably where the UUV/UAV would be stored. No idea if it can be accessed from the submarine so can't comment about the viability of SF/swimmer deployment. The fact it's integrated with the mast is more for fluid dynamics.

Exclusive: DCNS will unveil the SMX OCEAN at Euronaval 2014: A Conventional (SSK) Barracuda
 
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alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Yeah, mixture of hungover and half-assery ;)
Sorry, I liked the first version. It is still a paper boat. To be fair with the specs being considered there are not to many real vessels to consider.

Australian experiance with French gear (Mirage III) has not been without issues in the past and that may be a factor.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Sorry, I liked the first version. It is still a paper boat. To be fair with the specs being considered there are not to many real vessels to consider.
Mostly yeah, the design of the nuc Barracuda is kinda nailed down as the first 3 are in build, but I accept there's issues with ripping all that out, swapping it with conventional gear and making adjustments from the original design.

Australian experiance with French gear (Mirage III) has not been without issues in the past and that may be a factor.
I thought it would be interesting to post because the most common complaint against Euro boats is size/endurance which - apparently - seems to be addressed at least in part.

Plus I liked the French VPM.
 

hairyman

Active Member
According to todays The Age, Williamstown shipbuilder BAE Systems has challenged the Abbott Government over claims Australia lacks the capacity to replace two large navy supply ships. The government is insisting the contracts go to Spain or South Korea.
In a submission to a Senate enquiry into the shipbuilding industries future, BAE Systems appears to contradict the claims. It argues existing projects demonstrate it has the capacity to build the ships, possibly in partnership with other companies.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
According to todays The Age, Williamstown shipbuilder BAE Systems has challenged the Abbott Government over claims Australia lacks the capacity to replace two large navy supply ships. The government is insisting the contracts go to Spain or South Korea.
In a submission to a Senate enquiry into the shipbuilding industries future, BAE Systems appears to contradict the claims. It argues existing projects demonstrate it has the capacity to build the ships, possibly in partnership with other companies.
The steel bashing for the LHD and AWD is mostly done, the initial problems on the the FIRST keel block on the FIRST AWD were overcome literally years ago, the work forces in the various yards are now trained and up to speed, denying them work now will force redundancies of those trained workers, setting us back to square one. It was sending work, that could have been done locally, overseas and failing to order ships the RAN needed that caused the problem of inefficiency in our ship yards in the first place. Now we have spent billions rebuilding the industry for the second time in twenty five years it seems beyond stupid to starve and kill it for a third time.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
The workers can do the job, the question is, do the current yards have the space to build them?

Actually, how deep is Port Phillip bay? Could the dry docks be extended out into the bay?

(my personal dream land preference would be the reactivation and modernisation of cockatoo island, possibly with a bridge joining it to the mainland.)
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The workers can do the job, the question is, do the current yards have the space to build them?

Actually, how deep is Port Phillip bay? Could the dry docks be extended out into the bay?

(my personal dream land preference would be the reactivation and modernisation of cockatoo island, possibly with a bridge joining it to the mainland.)
The dock in Williamstown could not accodiate them so consolidation would need to occur elsewhere. ASC would need a bigger facility than is currently in use. Same in the West. Not impossible or super difficult but adds to the cost. However, once you have it you have it (unless thye turn it into a camping ground like Cockatoo).

Caincross is idle but not sure it would be suitable as it really is a repair dock and floating in sections would not be fun.

Cockatoo dock was a capable facility (albeit not always run efficiently) but there would be a bit of cost to remedaite the decline not to mention the need to withstand the green assalt.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The workers can do the job, the question is, do the current yards have the space to build them?

Actually, how deep is Port Phillip bay? Could the dry docks be extended out into the bay?

(my personal dream land preference would be the reactivation and modernisation of cockatoo island, possibly with a bridge joining it to the mainland.)
Build blocks around the country and consolidate them at a single location. All yards get work while one yard gets an expanded ship lift, everyone wins as is would be possible to apportion work to suit each yards strengths. Build the AORs ASAP, follow them with OPVs to replace the ACPBs and then new generation frigates to replace the ANZACs.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Has the super urgent, couldn't possibly be done in Australia because it's so urgent, tender been released yet? Or are they going to fluff around the requirements like every government before them since Success was ordered?
 

koala

Member
SPS Cantabria

I am just wondering what happened with all that trialling and evaluation with SPS Cantabria?
Was it not suitable?
I would have imagined that considering all our recent new builds are Spanish, this would have been a great follow on ship to be either fully or partially built in Australia?
Anyone know any info about the trial and evaluation process of Cantabria?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The steel bashing for the LHD and AWD is mostly done, the initial problems on the the FIRST keel block on the FIRST AWD were overcome literally years ago, the work forces in the various yards are now trained and up to speed, denying them work now will force redundancies of those trained workers, setting us back to square one. It was sending work, that could have been done locally, overseas and failing to order ships the RAN needed that caused the problem of inefficiency in our ship yards in the first place. Now we have spent billions rebuilding the industry for the second time in twenty five years it seems beyond stupid to starve and kill it for a third time.
As you probably know our ship building industry requires the same rebuilding process after it was allowed to rot away after the Halifax/Kingston class programs ended and the RCN/DND's complete failure to get the JSS underway while our yards still had the necessary skills and infrastructure.

Australia needs to have a viable naval ship building industry and fortunately there are voters and politicians that understand and support this. Canada has the need as well but lacks the latter two items. Most likely our naval renewal will be scaled back and the ship building skills will be lost yet again. This is the reason why I no longer support a domestic build. A Euro build will be less expensive and the quality will be just as good or better. As for AORs, S Korea would still be my choice even with a viable domestic ship building industry. The cost savings alone on a two ship AOR build would provide the money for a frigate which could keep the domestic yard busy. This could be the case for Australia too although perhaps your ship building industry is more productive than ours will ever be.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
As you probably know our ship building industry requires the same rebuilding process after it was allowed to rot away after the Halifax/Kingston class programs ended and the RCN/DND's complete failure to get the JSS underway while our yards still had the necessary skills and infrastructure.

Australia needs to have a viable naval ship building industry and fortunately there are voters and politicians that understand and support this. Canada has the need as well but lacks the latter two items. Most likely our naval renewal will be scaled back and the ship building skills will be lost yet again. This is the reason why I no longer support a domestic build. A Euro build will be less expensive and the quality will be just as good or better. As for AORs, S Korea would still be my choice even with a viable domestic ship building industry. The cost savings alone on a two ship AOR build would provide the money for a frigate which could keep the domestic yard busy. This could be the case for Australia too although perhaps your ship building industry is more productive than ours will ever be.
The truly sad thing is Canada has fallen from designing and building world class ships, destroyers, frigates and support vessels to having built nothing substantial for years now. The thing is with your current (well former and still required on paper) force levels of four destroyers, twelve frigates (?), ?? artic patrol vessels etc. you could easily have a sustainable continuous build of surface combatants.
 

knightrider4

Active Member
The truly sad thing is Canada has fallen from designing and building world class ships, destroyers, frigates and support vessels to having built nothing substantial for years now. The thing is with your current (well former and still required on paper) force levels of four destroyers, twelve frigates (?), ?? artic patrol vessels etc. you could easily have a sustainable continuous build of surface combatants.
I see amusingly the SEA 1000 debate is getting a little ridiculous. Senator Nick weighing in on SKY news, the poor bugger really is clueless, typical lawyer. In all of the debate going on the fact remains that in tight fiscal times how can one justify spending roughly double the price to have submarines built here.By no means am I saying that ASC is incapable of producing these boats but a clean sheet design which the 216 is essentially having never been built and no in depth design work being done is a risky proposition at best. The Soryu class is highly capable even more so if one ditches the AIP and goes with the Lithium Ion battery setup the Japanese will be using from the 6th boat onwards. Do I care where the Soryu boats are built no I don't. Do I want my tax dollars spent wisely very much so. The HDW boats have some well documented ball ups just ask the Hellenic Navy although I see the proponents of the HDW offering don't want to mention that. Much better for ASC to grab the future frigates which I would bet money on that they will be based on the F100 hull. Governments don't spend 70 odd million on preliminary design work which wont come to fruition. Whatever happens SC will have to wittle down n that 160 man hours per tonne and get somewhere close to world standard before they given even contemplate expecting further orders.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The truly sad thing is Canada has fallen from designing and building world class ships, destroyers, frigates and support vessels to having built nothing substantial for years now. The thing is with your current (well former and still required on paper) force levels of four destroyers, twelve frigates (?), ?? artic patrol vessels etc. you could easily have a sustainable continuous build of surface combatants.
If the force levels were to be maintained, a sustainable continuous build might indeed be possible. Canada did have a 4 destroyer, 12 frigate navy but one of the tribal destroyers was retired years ago so the national ship building program calls for 15 surface combatant ships. Even before the build has started the politicians have already pressured DND to reduce the RCN's force level to 15. Now that Canada only has one destroyer perhaps 13 will be the next revised level.

No matter what level is decided upon you can rest assured this new fleet will never see a replacement build until our revitilized shipyards morph back to obsolescence. If a defence asset has a 30 year lifespan, a Canadian politician, regardless of party, will interpret 30 to mean 45.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I see amusingly the SEA 1000 debate is getting a little ridiculous. Senator Nick weighing in on SKY news, the poor bugger really is clueless, typical lawyer. In all of the debate going on the fact remains that in tight fiscal times how can one justify spending roughly double the price to have submarines built here.By no means am I saying that ASC is incapable of producing these boats but a clean sheet design which the 216 is essentially having never been built and no in depth design work being done is a risky proposition at best. The Soryu class is highly capable even more so if one ditches the AIP and goes with the Lithium Ion battery setup the Japanese will be using from the 6th boat onwards. Do I care where the Soryu boats are built no I don't. Do I want my tax dollars spent wisely very much so. The HDW boats have some well documented ball ups just ask the Hellenic Navy although I see the proponents of the HDW offering don't want to mention that. Much better for ASC to grab the future frigates which I would bet money on that they will be based on the F100 hull. Governments don't spend 70 odd million on preliminary design work which wont come to fruition. Whatever happens SC will have to wittle down n that 160 man hours per tonne and get somewhere close to world standard before they given even contemplate expecting further orders.
I am very concerned at the different costs being quoted, they are all over the place and I get the impression that the different interest groups are inventing figures that support their arguments. The only ones we are not hearing from are ASC as they are government owned and restricted from commenting.

It seems that the cost of a local build, let alone a local design and build, has doubled and I wonder what justification there could be for this, besides the obvious of trying to make what was a serious option look unaffordable. I feel there is a lot of smoke and mirrors going on here, with the costs of many of the off the shelf options now being as high or higher than the local option was said to be just over a year ago. It seems that there is an effort to justify higher than expected MOTS and modified MOTS options by claiming a local effort would be "twice" as expensive, without any real justification, too bad the local builder / designer has been gagged and discredited by a concerted media and political campaign so is not in a position to counter the more unrealistic / dishonest claims.

The unfortunate result of all this is may be far worse than Australia paying more than we should, or the RAN not getting the capability they need; we could actually go backwards through acquiring an unsuitable capability that is not up to the job and is so far off the mark it cannot be upgraded to fix things (I.e too small or a design that is too compromised). Even worse, the spiraling cost estimates, combined with a falling Australian dollar, after the local option has been ruled out and made impossible through the degradation of local capability, could result in the Collins not being replaced at all and the RAN submarine capability being disbanded as unaffordable and unsustainable.
 
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