Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[t68]

The 5 existing seasprites have been sold to Peru, via refurbishment in Canada.

All of the reports are in Spanish, and are a bit scant on detail (e.g. price), but at least theres going to be an additional SH-2 operator in the world

Marina del Perú adquiere helicópteros Kaman SH-2 | TAKE OFF - PERÚ

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=791841857541849&id=105090382883670

Edit: More detail in English and now I've read through more carefully - they are being sold via General Dynamics Canada, which after upgrades etc will then go to Peru

Peru signs for SH-2G Super Seasprites - IHS Jane's 360

I was under the impression that the ex RAN helicopters were to be rebuilt to the same configuration as the current Kiwi helicopters which would have been used as spares for the new/old fleet(Kiwi fleet)

In the long run think the Kiwis would get better value out of the UK Lynx Helicopters with a better upgrade path with the poms

 

[htbrst]

I was under the impression that the ex RAN helicopters were to be rebuilt to the same configuration as the current Kiwi helicopters which would have been used as spares for the new/old fleet(Kiwi fleet)

In the long run think the Kiwis would get better value out of the UK Lynx Helicopters with a better upgrade path with the poms

It was always the plan to try and sell them I believe. I think the ex-RAN SH-2's provide a much better deal and second-hand Lynxs - lower risk and probably more airframes overall. If we bought Lynx off the shelf instead of Seasprites originally it would be a different story - but not now.

 

[Todjaeger]

I was under the impression that the ex RAN helicopters were to be rebuilt to the same configuration as the current Kiwi helicopters which would have been used as spares for the new/old fleet(Kiwi fleet)

In the long run think the Kiwis would get better value out of the UK Lynx Helicopters with a better upgrade path with the poms

No, the "new" Kiwi Seasprites should be of the International configuration. The original Kiwi Seasprites were due for updates and upgrades for the avionics and other systems.

The International configuration has an updated suite vs. the SH-2G(NZ). While I would have liked the existing Kiwi Seasprites to be retained and updated to a common standard so that NZ would have a larger pool of naval helicopters, the planned buy itself is decent.

Going for new Wildcats might have been better overall, but also more expensive.

 

[t68]

No, the "new" Kiwi Seasprites should be of the International configuration. The original Kiwi Seasprites were due for updates and upgrades for the avionics and other systems.

The International configuration has an updated suite vs. the SH-2G(NZ). While I would have liked the existing Kiwi Seasprites to be retained and updated to a common standard so that NZ would have a larger pool of naval helicopters, the planned buy itself is decent.

Going for new Wildcats might have been better overall, but also more expensive.

Agree going Wildcat would have been more expensive initially but the upgrade path in the future will be less risky with the UK set for 60 odd new build birds. Whilst I think our Kiwi mates got a good deal on the ex RAN birds I can't see any of the current Sea Sprite operators stumping up with the $ in years to come for future upgrades.

Whilst money is tight for the Kiwis sometimes you have to spend a little bit more now and save in the long term 8 operational airframes is still a bit small and I think that they will burn up hours faster than bargained for Squadron of 15/18 should be the minimum if they have 5 platforms available, granted they all won't be out to sea at once but If you want the capabilty goto spend the $

 

[Gracie1234]

I am pretty sure these new seasprites for NZ are just an interim measure that have bought us a few years, maybe 15, before they will be replaced. I would expect them to be replaced with the NH90 maritime variant. But what is the operating cost between this and the Lync? I am sure with similar kit the purchase price would be similar.

 

[t68]

I am pretty sure these new seasprites for NZ are just an interim measure that have bought us a few years, maybe 15, before they will be replaced. I would expect them to be replaced with the NH90 maritime variant. But what is the operating cost between this and the Lync? I am sure with similar kit the purchase price would be similar.

That's a lot of kit getting pushed down the line in 15 years, that's Herc, P3 Orion now Sea Sprites plus all the stuff that floats Anzacs Canterbury etc

 

[ngatimozart]

I am pretty sure these new seasprites for NZ are just an interim measure that have bought us a few years, maybe 15, before they will be replaced. I would expect them to be replaced with the NH90 maritime variant. But what is the operating cost between this and the Lync? I am sure with similar kit the purchase price would be similar.

Whilst there would be many advantages of having the NH90 / NFH combination the NFH is too large for an OPV and OPV is a class of ship that the RNZN will have in service for a long while. Maybe one way would be to restrict the 'Sprites to OPVs and order a tranche of NFHs for the larger ships. Therefore then one would have to look at possibly 12 - 15 NFHs working on 2(3) frigates, 1 MSC and Canterbury. That would get the 'Sprites out to maybe 2030 and around that time another look at naval helos. That's how I think RNZN aviation should look but that is not what will happen unfortunately. The kiwi pollies will stay true to form, take the cheap option and stick with 8 'Sprites. One other point about the feasibility of the NFH in RNZN markings. The hangers on the ANZAC frigates, Canterbury and MSC would need to be modified for the NFH to fit, plus I think the flight decks on Te Kaha and Te Mana strengthened.

There is one type we haven't looked at for OPV ops and that is a marinised variant of the A109 Mako. Possibly fitted with a maritime surface search radar. That is another option. Give it a gun and option for the AGM65 Maverick missile (which we have) and something like Brimstone if possible to take care of pirates etc., then it's a viable cost efficient option.

The International configuration has an updated suite vs. the SH-2G(NZ). While I would have liked the existing Kiwi Seasprites to be retained and updated to a common standard so that NZ would have a larger pool of naval helicopters, the planned buy itself is decent.
Going for new Wildcats might have been better overall, but also more expensive.

Yes the current pool is good for two and even three flight decks but we have an extra one coming on board in four years with the MSC and Endeavour has never been able to operate the 'Sprites because it's flight deck was never 'Sprite capable.

Agree going Wildcat would have been more expensive initially but the upgrade path in the future will be less risky with the UK set for 60 odd new build birds. Whilst I think our Kiwi mates got a good deal on the ex RAN birds I can't see any of the current Sea Sprite operators stumping up with the $ in years to come for future upgrades.

Whilst money is tight for the Kiwis sometimes you have to spend a little bit more now and save in the long term 8 operational airframes is still a bit small and I think that they will burn up hours faster than bargained for Squadron of 15/18 should be the minimum if they have 5 platforms available, granted they all won't be out to sea at once but If you want the capabilty goto spend the $

Agree in RNZN terms the Wildcat would've been the best outcome. Bite the bullet now and leaves the possibility of increasing airframes down the line. 9 airframes now and say another 5 or 9 in mid to late 2020s would've been ideal. However getting 9 Wildcats quickly would've been the issue. The 5 current 'Sprites would have probably had to have been deep sixed before we could've got the Wildcats off the production line certified and introduced. It's not so much wanting the capability; it's getting the pollies to front up with the coin. Even if the capability is in desperate need the pollies are ever of short arms and long deep pockets when it comes to defence.

That's a lot of kit getting pushed down the line in 15 years, that's Herc, P3 Orion now Sea Sprites plus all the stuff that floats Anzacs Canterbury etc

That is so true and as each year goes by it gets more concerning because it becomes a case of probably what capability are we going to lose Unfortunately unless we get a real war scare or something terrible happening in a security or military sense I see no change in priorities.

 

[ngatimozart]

RNZN Goes Dry

The RNZN is going to be a dry navy, meaning no booze on ships at sea or anchor, or on shore establishment during work hours. It was announced by the CN RAdm Jack Steer on 8/10/2014 in a "Chief of Navy With All Despatch" around the fleet.

.... If we continue to see poor behaviour then we will revisit these changes and look at stronger action.

First and most significantly, we are going to make our ships dry while they are underway or at anchor. If you’re at sea, you’re working and it’s a hazardous environment. Drinking at sea makes this environment even more dangerous. This will also mean no duty free at sea. You can still claim duty free through the AFCC when you return to New Zealand.

No duty-free at sea will include cigarettes. The adverse effects that cigarettes have on our health are well documented, and research shows the price of cigarettes directly affects the numbers of people smoking. This change is designed to make our Navy healthier.

Secondly – There will be no consumption of alcohol during work hours, unless expressly approved by the Deputy Chief of Navy, this includes off base as well as on. I would still like your messes to continue to serve food at Friday lunchtimes alongside goffas, tea and coffee or mocktails. Going to the mess is about spinning a few dits and catching up with people. I know you will make this work.

We’re also going to raise the prices of drinks in the ships’ messes. Prices on shore will still be set by the CO PHL who will benchmark them on a six monthly basis against alcohol prices at the Devonport New World. Ships’ messes will follow the pricing set for shore messes. Any extra profit made by the messes will be put straight back into mess funds and spent on events and other things which benefit the mess members.

Alongside these three major changes we’re going to champion greater enforcement of bar rules and host responsibility, abolish awarding alcohol-related gifts at prize-giving’s, provide more visible shore patrols and remove alcohol advertising from our Naval Base.

We are going to increase our education and awareness programmes. Every promotion course will have a responsible drinking component, as well as a renewed focus on diversity and equality in our Navy.

Finally, drinking and driving is a serious offence that displays a lack of judgement and self-discipline. Drinking and driving is not accidental, it is a conscious choice that endangers not only you, but others on the road. If you are convicted of drink driving it is likely you will be discharged from our navy.

I want to reiterate, these changes are not about punishing people, they are about changing our culture and championing an environment where our people take responsibility and behave like ambassadors for our Navy and our nation.

It is thought that this will move to the other two services in due course.This will not go down well with some and quite a few of the old salts, myself included, are somewhat dismayed by this but I have to be honest, in this PC world the writing has been on the wall for some time. Most of us old salts and other ex serve people from the RNZAF and NZ Army see the modern services as being full of PC rubbish. However we do state that modern Kiwi service personnel have to carry out their duties and service under trying and difficult circumstances but they perform their duties with much mana and honour.

 

[MrConservative]

The RNZN is going to be a dry navy, meaning no booze on ships at sea or anchor, or on shore establishment during work hours. It was announced by the CN RAdm Jack Steer on 8/10/2014 in a "Chief of Navy With All Despatch" around the fleet.

It is thought that this will move to the other two services in due course.This will not go down well with some and quite a few of the old salts, myself included, are somewhat dismayed by this but I have to be honest, in this PC world the writing has been on the wall for some time. Most of us old salts and other ex serve people from the RNZAF and NZ Army see the modern services as being full of PC rubbish. However we do state that modern Kiwi service personnel have to carry out their duties and service under trying and difficult circumstances but they perform their duties with much mana and honour.

Yes this has been coming for a longtime NG. It might not go down well with some, but some of the antics of young naval personnel over the last few years has left a lot to be desired around alcohol consumption and the aftermath. They have trash naval honour and mana by doing so. A few individuals over the last few years have publicly disgraced the Naval name and Old Jack has probably had enough.

 

[ngatimozart]

Yes this has been coming for a longtime NG. It might not go down well with some, but some of the antics of young naval personnel over the last few years has left a lot to be desired around alcohol consumption and the aftermath. They have trash naval honour and mana by doing so. A few individuals over the last few years have publicly disgraced the Naval name and Old Jack has probably had enough.

Yep that's true and one of the other comments to come through is that the young ones these days seem to be unable to hold their booze like the jack tars of old. That's just an observation that may have some validity or not as the case may be. It may be that people today are less tolerant of peoples foibles and bad habits as well. Such things as dances of the flamers as practised by the RNZN RAN and probably RN matelots whilst inebriated would not be appreciated in todays society. Nor the habit of runs down Bugis St

 

[Cadredave]

Yep that's true and one of the other comments to come through is that the young ones these days seem to be unable to hold their booze like the jack tars of old. That's just an observation that may have some validity or not as the case may be. It may be that people today are less tolerant of peoples foibles and bad habits as well. Such things as dances of the flamers as practised by the RNZN RAN and probably RN matelots whilst inebriated would not be appreciated in todays society. Nor the habit of runs down Bugis St

This has been coming for along time its really got nothing to do with holding down your grog with the proliferation of smart phones any incident is on FB, Twitter before the phone call at night from the Police station saying one of your boys or girls is in custody. I whole heartily agree with the Senior Leadership on cracking down on alcohol.

example as a young Sergeant with a young family the Unit RSM called 28 Regimental happy hours catch was you were not allowed to leave until he had gone home problem RSM usually stayed all night leaving at dawn the next day if you snuck out you were on extra duties numbers started at 7 and went up in 7's. As a Warrant Officer I have no problem realising my pers straight after the formalities have ended.

Good on CN,CA CAF & CDF

 

[old faithful]

My old Pl SGT, now retired, won a comenstion pay out a few years ago.
now what ever you may think, this really happened. It actually happened on my first Guard duty as Guard commander.
He had attended a compuslary function at the SGT,s mess. was blind drunk. he leaned out of his window to chunder, and fell out. Broke his collar bone and shoulder.

 

[Raven22]

Yep that's true and one of the other comments to come through is that the young ones these days seem to be unable to hold their booze like the jack tars of old.

Oh, what a load of nonsense. Every single generation has said that about the generation that follows, going all the way back to Plato. The only thing that has changed is the level of risk that leadership accepts. Basically, senior leaders today are only too happy to crucify junior personnel for things they themselves did when they were young. How are young people supposed to learn what appropriate behaviour is without be given the opportunity to make and learn from mistakes themselves? That is how it has ALWAYS worked.

 

[swerve]

This has been coming for along time its really got nothing to do with holding down your grog with the proliferation of smart phones any incident is on FB, Twitter before the phone call at night from the Police station saying one of your boys or girls is in custody. I whole heartily agree with the Senior Leadership on cracking down on alcohol.

example as a young Sergeant with a young family the Unit RSM called 28 Regimental happy hours catch was you were not allowed to leave until he had gone home problem RSM usually stayed all night leaving at dawn the next day if you snuck out you were on extra duties numbers started at 7 and went up in 7's. As a Warrant Officer I have no problem realising my pers straight after the formalities have ended.

Good on CN,CA CAF & CDF

So - you reckon that the solution to problems caused by senior NCOs making drinking compulsory is to ban the poor bloody squaddies from drinking at all. What about cracking down on senior NCOs like your RSM?

Address the cause of the problem, not its effects.

 

[MrConservative]

So - you reckon that the solution to problems caused by senior NCOs making drinking compulsory is to ban the poor bloody squaddies from drinking at all. What about cracking down on senior NCOs like your RSM?

Address the cause of the problem, not its effects.

This might be helpful.

RNZN - CN With All Despatch

Note that the CN is not advocating an alcohol free Navy. Sensible limits and parameters have been put in place. This is addition to a concerted drink responsibly campaign introduced throughout the wider Defence Force. Both cause and effect have now been addressed. Good!

 

[Reaver]

Agree going Wildcat would have been more expensive initially but the upgrade path in the future will be less risky with the UK set for 60 odd new build birds. Whilst I think our Kiwi mates got a good deal on the ex RAN birds I can't see any of the current Sea Sprite operators stumping up with the $ in years to come for future upgrades.

Whilst money is tight for the Kiwis sometimes you have to spend a little bit more now and save in the long term 8 operational airframes is still a bit small and I think that they will burn up hours faster than bargained for Squadron of 15/18 should be the minimum if they have 5 platforms available, granted they all won't be out to sea at once but If you want the capabilty goto spend the $

The SH-2G(NZ) Seasprite "output" as agreed and paid for by the NZ Govt is for a required availablity of three helicopters out of a fleet size of five. Due to increasing maintenance costs (because of the increasing the age of the aircraft), obsolesence of communication & mission components and a decline in capability, the constant output of three fames was unattainable and hence the Maritime Helicopter Capability Project was approved by Government.

The purchase of the SG-2G(I) has no impact on the "output" of three helicopters however as it is now three available out of a fleet size of eight it makes the acheivement of the agreed & funded output easier.

Any talk of the SH-2G(I) availablity changing from the current three to five helicopters would required require more money, personnel and airframes to be acheivable and would become a new project where multiple options/solutions would be looked at.

 

[Cadredave]

So - you reckon that the solution to problems caused by senior NCOs making drinking compulsory is to ban the poor bloody squaddies from drinking at all. What about cracking down on senior NCOs like your RSM?

Address the cause of the problem, not its effects.

What I have Identified is the core problem in the NZDF institutionalised piss drinking made compulsory by out dated macho concepts & Standing Orders across the NZDF this is not only going to impact the lower ranks but all ranks. If its good enough for me to show my subordinates how to enjoy oneself without getting shit faced all the better. my mantra is simple to all YO & lower ranks - Once is a mistake twice is a habit.

There is no difference between Senior Leadership & Lower Ranks you commit a alcohol related crime ie Drink driving you will receive a DCM (Don't come Monday) as a Brigadier has paid the price in the last 4 years.

PS That RSM was gently asked to leave.

 

[MrConservative]

What I have Identified is the core problem in the NZDF institutionalised piss drinking made compulsory by out dated macho concepts & Standing Orders across the NZDF this is not only going to impact the lower ranks but all ranks. If its good enough for me to show my subordinates how to enjoy oneself without getting shit faced all the better. My mantra is simple to all YO & lower ranks - Once is a mistake twice is a habit.

There is no difference between Senior Leadership & Lower Ranks you commit a alcohol related crime ie Drink driving you will receive a DCM (Don't come Monday) as a Brigadier has paid the price in the last 4 years.

PS That RSM was gently asked to leave.

And there was the highly publicised drinking driving case of a CDRE a few years back who got the DCM.

 

[swerve]

PS That RSM was gently asked to leave.

That sounds like a good outcome.

 

[RubiconNZ]

On a different note, with the combat system upgrade for the Anzac's is anybody aware of the reason they have not or will not acquire Nulka for for the missile decoy?