War Against ISIS

[ngatimozart]

Turkey has entered the fight against ISIS / ISIL with its Parliament voting to authorise the Turkish Armed Forces to operate against terrorist forces in both Iraq and Syria. The vote also authorises the stationing of foreign forces on Turkish soil for the express purpose of combating terrorist forces. There is no limit on the number of these foreign forces. Turkish MPs back operations in Syria and Iraq - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

Apparently Turkey has approx 1.5 million refugees from the Syrian civil war and according to the Al Jazeera news item broadcast at 2300hrs GMT 2/10/2014 it has spent US$4.3 billion so far on the refugee situation. It also apparently has problems with its 500 mile common border with Syria because it is difficult to patrol and is quite porous. This creates a security problem which exacerbates the security problems they have with the influx of refugees. Now they will face cross border insurgency and fighting from ISIS, but this is to be expected. IMHO regardless of this vote ISIS would have eventually attempted to move across the border. How successful it would be is another story because the Turkish Armed Forces are a different kettle of fish to the Iraqi or Syrian forces. It is also in NATO so Turkey will be able to invoke the NATO treaty.

 

[FormerDirtDart]

Australian cabinet gives approval for fighter jets to join air strikes against Islamic State targets in Iraq

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

 

[Feanor]

UR-77 has been sighted in Syria. It's possible that these are part of the recent deliveries of equipment by Russia. They're using them the same way Russia used them in the Chechen wars, to clear out insurgents from built up urban areas. The material is from the outskirts of Damascus.

Юрий ЛÑмин - УР-77 в Сирии

 

[Blackshoe]

Turkey has entered the fight against ISIS / ISIL with its Parliament voting to authorise the Turkish Armed Forces to operate against terrorist forces in both Iraq and Syria. The vote also authorises the stationing of foreign forces on Turkish soil for the express purpose of combating terrorist forces. There is no limit on the number of these foreign forces. Turkish MPs back operations in Syria and Iraq - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

While I can't find a good source for it right now, apparently, a major factor was that the PKK (the Kurdish terrorist group that has long been active in the region) threatened to end the cease-fire they've had unless the Turks did something to help the peope of Kobane/Ain al-Arab.

 

[John Fedup]

While I can't find a good source for it right now, apparently, a major factor was that the PKK (the Kurdish terrorist group that has long been active in the region) threatened to end the cease-fire they've had unless the Turks did something to help the peope of Kobane/Ain al-Arab.

Just read a story about this at


Massacre in Kobane would end PKK's peace talks with Turkey: Öcalan - POLITICS

 

[John Fedup]

Canada intends to send 2 CP-140 Auroras, a aerial tanker, and 6 CF-18s along with necessary support crew for action against ISIL in Iraq with the option of going into Syria. Special forces already there will remain in an advisory role only. The deployment will be for 6 months with the provision of extension. This was announced by PM Harper today.

 

[the concerned]

I just read on military news 24 that the Syrian foreign minister has stated that any Turkish involvement would be regarded as an invasion. Surely this is going to complicate things I know the Syrians aren't a match for Turkish armed forces but its how Russia behave's that's the problem.

 

[2007yellow430]

The Washington Post has an interesting article on how the Is came into being:

Foreign nations

 

[John Fedup]

The Washington Post has an interesting article on how the Is came into being:

Foreign nations

No wonder someone in the last days of the Ottoman Empire blamed the Arabs. Lucky for Turkey the WW1 Allies didn't saddle them with too much of their former empire, unfortunately for the West, much of this $hit is the result of stuff decided upon in Paris in 1919.

 

[STURM]

Much of it is also the result of decisions taken by outsiders to redraw the maps of the region to suit their own interests. The locals naurally weren't consulted ....

The plan [or rather the hope] is that airstrikes will stop ISIS and that the Iraqis and Syrian 'moderates' will slowly but slowly roll back all the gains made by ISIS - all this without any ''boots on the ground'' and with a ''coalition of the willing'' [never mind off course that this coalition includes countries that have a different agenda to what the West wants and that it will spell more trouble for ordinary Iraqis and Syrians]. In Syria the hope is that the ''moderates'' [after they have defeated ISIS] will next turn their attention on Assad and eventually topple his government to form a democratic Syria which will contribute to the satability of the region. This democratic government off course will be represented by all the minorities [including the defeated Alawites] and everyone will be treated fairly. We'll see how this actually turns out.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-make-a-successful-counterattack-9763658.html

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWpcZhyKE-A"]ISIS 'bigger threat than al-Qaeda', says Patrick Cockburn - Newsnight - YouTube[/nomedia]


[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLdNLmBKayk"]Patrick Cockburn on the rise of the Islamic State - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[John Fedup]

Much of it is also the result of decisions taken by outsiders to redraw the maps of the region to suit their own interests. The locals naurally weren't consulted ....

The plan [or rather the hope] is that airstrikes will stop or delay ISIS and that the Iraqis and Syrian 'moderates' will slowly but slowly roll back all the gains made by ISIS - all this without any ''boots on the ground'' and with a ''coalition of the willing'' [never mind off course that this coalition includes countries that have a different agenda to what the West wants and that it will spell more trouble for ordinary raqis and Syrians]. In Syria the hope is that the ''moderates'' [after they have defeated ISIS] will next turn their attention on Assad and eventually topple his government to form a democratic Syria. This democratic governmemt off course will be represented by all the minorities [including the defeated Alawites] and everyone will be treated fairly.

We'll see how this actually turns out.

How it turns out? In their desire to topple Assad, Iraqi Sunni dead Enders,and other vermin funded by Saudis attached themselves to the Sryian opposition and we now have ISIL. Now the the Saudis and Gulf States along with the pretend Iraqi state want the West to save their sorry A$$es from this $hit storm they created (albeit due to the U.S. decision to oust Saddam).

With all the other successful Islamic democracies why even ask the question as to how it will turn out? It's an oxymoron.

 

[STURM]

(albeit due to the U.S. decision to oust Saddam).

Not only the decision to oust Saddam but flawed decision taken after Saddam's government fell; which amongst other things led to a greater Sunni/Shia divide in Iraq and the birth of groups like ISIS. Things were bad in Iraq and they only got worse due to the war in Syria.

With all the other successful Islamic democracies why even ask the question as to how it will turn out? It's an oxymoron

It wasn't a literal question.

Before even mentioning ''successful'' Islamic democracies, one has to ask whether the West actually wants Arab countries to have real democracies ...

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9ByM-p_SPc"]Going Underground: Iraq one of ‘greatest political messes in history’ - Patrick Cockburn (E122) - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[John Fedup]

Not only the decision to oust Saddam but flawed decision taken after Saddam's government fell; which amongst other things led to a greater Sunni/Shia divide in Iraq and the birth of groups like ISIS. Things were bad in Iraq and they only got worse due to the war in Syria.



It wasn't a literal question.

Before even mentioning ''successful'' Islamic democracies, one has to ask whether the West actually wants Arab countries to have real democracies ...

Going Underground: Iraq one of ‘greatest political messes in history’ - Patrick Cockburn (E122) - YouTube

Whether the West wants Arab democracies is a fair question. IMO, Islam, as it is practised in the region (maybe everywhere), makes self-serving dictators seem like a good idea, especially after the el Maliki experience. I still think that idiot Paul Brenner caused much of this grief with his disbanding of the Iraqi army. Saddam's army with some pruning might have provided some stability post-war..i.e. Only get rid of the senior elite guard types.

Bottom line...a mess with no apparent solution (that I can see).

 

[RobWilliams]

US deploys Apache attack helicopters to fight IS. AFAIK there's been no comments about basing made.

US throws Apache helicopter gunships into fight against Isil - Telegraph

UK Reapers to head to Iraq after the Afghanistan mission is completed, although they'll probably be based in the UAE as i'm not sure how keen Turkey would be to have armed drones using the airspace.

RAF Reaper drones 'bound for Iraq' - Telegraph

 

[bdique]

Turkey 'to let US use bases' against Islamic State - BBC News - Turkey 'to let US use bases' against Islamic State

Incirlik airbase to be used as a training base for Syrian moderates, and although unspecified, probably as a staging ground for air strikes into Syria and Iraq.

Can't help but think that this 'change of heart' come about from international concern over the situation in Kobane.

 

[RobWilliams]

Which is good, any reduction of flight time reduces the requirement for AAR and that can only be a good thing.

Good article from War is Boring about IS' MANPADs capability who have recently shot down 2 Iraqi helicopters, one was an Mi-35M and the second a IA-407. Through social media the presence of FN-6 shoulder launched Chinese manufactured missiles has been identified.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/islamic-state-has-anti-aircraft-missiles-60e99fca1611

 

[Feanor]

Which is good, any reduction of flight time reduces the requirement for AAR and that can only be a good thing.

Good article from War is Boring about IS' MANPADs capability who have recently shot down 2 Iraqi helicopters, one was an Mi-35M and the second a IA-407. Through social media the presence of FN-6 shoulder launched Chinese manufactured missiles has been identified.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/islamic-state-has-anti-aircraft-missiles-60e99fca1611

The rate at which they're knocking the Mi-35Ms out of the sky is startling. Either the upgrades it has don't significantly impact it's usage, or Iraqis simply can't make use of the more advanced helos in a meaningful fashion. Which brings up all kinds of questions about the Mi-28s.

 

[RobWilliams]

This is the first i've heard of a MANPADS shooting it down (there's probably more I missed) but i've heard about a bunch which have been shot up by AAA. From another WiB article earlier on in the crisis they quoted 60 helicopters (types not specified) as being damaged from ground fire.

It certainly raises questions about exactly how those pilots are doing their job, not to say that they definitely are doing something wrong, but clearly something in the way they attack targets makes them more vulnerable than they are supposed to be.

It also raises questions about the defensive aid suites equipping Iraqi helicopters.

 

[Feanor]

This is the first i've heard of a MANPADS shooting it down (there's probably more I missed) but i've heard about a bunch which have been shot up by AAA. From another WiB article earlier on in the crisis they quoted 60 helicopters (types not specified) as being damaged from ground fire.

It certainly raises questions about exactly how those pilots are doing their job, not to say that they definitely are doing something wrong, but clearly something in the way they attack targets makes them more vulnerable than they are supposed to be.

It also raises questions about the defensive aid suites equipping Iraqi helicopters.

They have significant numbers of Hinds. These are heavily armored attack helos, designed to take ground fire, and not care. They have an impressive record of taking damage, and surviving none the less, throughout the Afghan and Chechen Wars. Granted Ukraine managed to lose a spectacular percentages of their Hinds too in the recent war. But there we can definitely blame pilots and mission planners. I wonder if the issue in Iraq is the same.

 

[Gremlin29]

Counter measures are the only thing a helicopter can use to defend itself from MANPAD's when they are in the WEZ. If they are losing helicopters to MANPAD's, it's due to inadequate counter measures. While the Hind may be able to absorb considerable damage and RTB, damage of any kind puts an aircraft into 'down' status. How long it's down will depend on the expertise of the maintainers, the damage and of course spare parts availability.

I can easily see how they would be taking AAA, there's no FEBA and they are making hasty attacks. IMHO attack helicopters in general are best used for deliberate attack missions, or CAS with the caveat that the maneuver element has it's sh*t together. None of this is going to happen in Iraq, the army is poor at best and aviation in general there isn't so hot either.