Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Volkodav]

The there was an almost decade gap between the order of the ANZACs and the Armidales, had the Armidales been steel hulled corvettes, OPVs or even just C57m steel hulled patrol boats, built at Tenix Williamstown (before it was BAE) the RAN would have had a more durable and capable platform and Tenix would have been able to retain their experienced and capable work force. This in turn would have prevented the subsequent issues with the keel blocks for the AWDs and removed one of the major causes of the current schedule slip and cost over runs.

Take it a step further and award the AWD build to Tenix as a follow on to the ANZACs and then the Fremantle PB replacements then their experienced and competent, proven management team and work force would have delivered the project on time and probably under budget permitting the order of a fourth ship.

Yes Austal probably moves off shore earlier but in exchange the RAN gets a more capable and durable patrol vessel which saves money through life but also just as importantly, the Tenix avoids the ship building black hole of the mid 2000s that was the cause of most of the problems with the AWD and LHD projects.

 

[ngatimozart]

The there was an almost decade gap between the order of the ANZACs and the Armidales, had the Armidales been steel hulled corvettes, OPVs or even just C57m steel hulled patrol boats, built at Tenix Williamstown (before it was BAE) the RAN would have had a more durable and capable platform and Tenix would have been able to retain their experienced and capable work force. This in turn would have prevented the subsequent issues with the keel blocks for the AWDs and removed one of the major causes of the current schedule slip and cost over runs.

Take it a step further and award the AWD build to Tenix as a follow on to the ANZACs and then the Fremantle PB replacements then their experienced and competent, proven management team and work force would have delivered the project on time and probably under budget permitting the order of a fourth ship.

Yes Austal probably moves off shore earlier but in exchange the RAN gets a more capable and durable patrol vessel which saves money through life but also just as importantly, the Tenix avoids the ship building black hole of the mid 2000s that was the cause of most of the problems with the AWD and LHD projects.

I think V the problem you illustrate is that such important decisions shouldn't be left to pollies. I would be totally agreeable to the idea of leaving the pollies out of defence procurement decisions but unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Be nice though :smilie

 

[pussertas]

well I guess the way to combat the lopsided trade deals is mirror laws, if say for instance they have a tariff our whatever you want call it on imports to their country and we don't just mirror the tariff so its equal don't know if that would help or not.

these 457 visa are bunch of crock tried years ago to get into mining sector in WA but could not get a leg in, and G:dunceina saying not enough workers here bollocks

We would get sued in International courts due to the crazy free trade treaties our useless politicians have signed to curry favour with their National Party comrades.

Thrown away our manufacturing base in the hope of selling more rural products.

A pox on all pollies

 

[ngatimozart]

A pox on all pollies

Please don't give the pox a bad name by associating it with pollies.

 

[Joe Black]

Option J for FSM—a Japanese solution?

Interesting article comparing Soryu with Collins. How accurate is this comparison? Given Peter Briggs was a sub commanding officer, I would think that he knows his stuff.

 

[ASSAIL]

Option J for FSM—a Japanese solution?

Interesting article comparing Soryu with Collins. How accurate is this comparison? Given Peter Briggs was a sub commanding officer, I would think that he knows his stuff.

It brings much needed balance to a debate that has veered badly off course into the realm of fantasy. Soryu MOTS was never an option for the RAN and yes, Peter Briggs knows.
The attraction that Japanese subs has for us has always been the back end, we do extraordinarily well with the rest (with a little help).

 

[gf0012-aust]

It brings much needed balance to a debate that has veered badly off course into the realm of fantasy. Soryu MOTS was never an option for the RAN and yes, Peter Briggs knows.
The attraction that Japanese subs has for us has always been the back end, we do extraordinarily well with the rest (with a little help).

the pluses for Soryu were about its diving ability, materials science issues and energy management

the rest we can do ourselves

Thales has had their say as well - but as they have a vested interest its hard to see their comments as impartial

the primes won't like it as most want a canned solution as they know that they'll make the money on integration and modification, but we are more than able to design our own

 

[Volkodav]

That is the main reason why overseas "experts" have been canning Australian capability, there is more money to be made if local designers are kept out of it and the OS operations can keep the IP. They must be over the moon that we have a government so keen to bag local skills and capability and ignore the failings and issues our international competitors have had with their own products since Collins was commissioned.

 

[hauritz]

Is the Soryu really the only option?

The German are offering the 216. They have a lot more experience in managing overseas construction than the Japanese, Swedes or just about anyone really.

The Germans are currently working with Singapore on a new class of ocean going subs ... the 218.

Singapore Orders Super Type 218SG Boats

 

[gf0012-aust]

Is the Soryu really the only option?

no

The German are offering the 216. They have a lot more experience in managing overseas construction than the Japanese, Swedes or just about anyone really.

its vaporware - soryu exists

The Germans are currently working with Singapore on a new class of ocean going subs ... the 218.

Singapore Orders Super Type 218SG Boats

cref earlier - we've already gone through the grief of vendors making claims which rely on cachet rather than substance

singapores requirements are quite different to Aust

 

[the road runner]

That is the main reason why overseas "experts" have been canning Australian capability, there is more money to be made if local designers are kept out of it and the OS operations can keep the IP.

I can not believe Australian Industry has been treated with such contempt and ridden off in the press and by government.I really do hope that Australia builds our future subs.

Australian Industry(and US/French ect) rectified a number of problems on the boats.
but Kockums still thought they owned certain IP fixes that Aussie tax payers paid for?

I have still not read any public info regarding Collins IP and what IP the Commonwealth own's. Anything made public on this?

 

[Joe Black]

Looks like the French might be interested at taking a "long shot" at a Collins class replacement
Exclusive: DCNS will unveil the SMX OCEAN at Euronaval 2014: A Conventional (SSK) Barracuda

 

[aussienscale]

Looks like the French might be interested at taking a "long shot" at a Collins class replacement
Exclusive: DCNS will unveil the SMX OCEAN at Euronaval 2014: A Conventional (SSK) Barracuda

Thats a big conventional sub !! good luck with that DCNS Real pie in the sky stuff

 

[StevoJH]

Thats a big conventional sub !! good luck with that DCNS Real pie in the sky stuff

Too much (reverse) tech transfer, they wont get the contract.

 

[rockitten]

One step closer for an Australian Soryu: Japanese is building new Soryu with Li batteries instead of lead batteries +AIP......

Japan To Make Major Switch on Sub Propulsion | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[Nick underscore]

One step closer for an Australian Soryu: Japanese is building new Soryu with Li batteries instead of lead batteries +AIP......

Japan To Make Major Switch on Sub Propulsion | Defense News | defensenews.com

Interesting. Leads to two questions from me.

Did Australia have an influence on this decision at all, behind the scenes?

Switching to Li-ion batteries provides a relative baseline power output increase of +%? I realise there are many other benefits, but couldn't see a relative figure.

The comments in the article w.r.t AIP, confirms what some have said (on these forums) for quite a while..

 

[StingrayOZ]

Interesting. Leads to two questions from me.

Did Australia have an influence on this decision at all, behind the scenes?

Switching to Li-ion batteries provides a relative baseline power output increase of +%? I realise there are many other benefits, but couldn't see a relative figure.

The comments in the article w.r.t AIP, confirms what some have said (on these forums) for quite a while..

I think this had been on the cards for a long time, NiMH and Lithlium ion technologies are obvious batteries technologies for subs and been mooted by multiple providers for a long time. They are just really expensive. I don't think Australia's talk has anything to do with it.

The article indicates they will remove the AIP.

They are giving up a secondary power generation device by removing the AIP. In exchange, they intend to enlarge and extend their current power storage devices by going from lead-acid batteries to Lithium-ion batteries,” Stitt said. “Lithium-ion batteries offer much greater energy density than current lead-acid batteries. They will have to develop some redundant safety electronics as well to monitor the stability of each battery cell.”

I wonder if the Lithium Ion batteries will be located in separate AIP area and be an additional power source while the lead acid batteries remain where they currently are.

Ideally the Li would replace the Pb batteries completely, and the AIP area could then be turned into a 2nd engine room with another 2 diesel generators the reduce indiscretion times. You could then snort out at twice the speed, something that Australia might find particularly interesting.

Li can be as good as 200% advantage over Pb by volume, 5 times by weight. I would imagine they may want to go with a less efficient but longer life, cheaper and less hazardous battery combination.

Li also gives you other advantages. It may be diesel electric subs might become the fastest subs in the water over short distances (~50km)due to li being quite good at high current applications. Tactics might change, as you could loiter very quietly for long periods, then cut and run, most likely out accelerating many SSN (particularly older types) and possibly able to out run/range torpedoes/UUV making getting a firing solution on a new diesel sub very difficult.

All purely speculative IMO.

 

[ASSAIL]

Li also gives you other advantages. It may be diesel electric subs might become the fastest subs in the water over short distances (~50km)due to li being quite good at high current applications. Tactics might change, as you could loiter very quietly for long periods, then cut and run, most likely out accelerating many SSN (particularly older types) and possibly able to out run/range torpedoes/UUV making getting a firing solution on a new diesel sub very difficult.

All purely speculative IMO.

I can't see conventionals ever matching 30kts+ achieved by nukes. Even if they were able to sprint 50k then what? A totally exhausted power source needing charge exposes the boat to incredible risk.
Unless there is a total revolution giving a non nuke the same speed and endurance (I don't know what that is yet) the tactics will continue to be what they do best, slow and silent.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I can't see conventionals ever matching 30kts+ achieved by nukes. Even if they were able to sprint 50k then what? A totally exhausted power source needing charge exposes the boat to incredible risk.
Unless there is a total revolution giving a non nuke the same speed and endurance (I don't know what that is yet) the tactics will continue to be what they do best, slow and silent.

Nuke boats will always have the speed and endurance advantage. However a ssk could accelerate much quicker to a SSN to get a better firing solution. Im not sure if its currently the case, but SSN's can outrun most/all torpedoes. Detecting a SSN is much easier than firing on a SSN that is operating at speed.

I haven't done the calculations, but a SSK with enough battery charge, could do a sprint, then still have enough left to stealth it out for days. Depending on its opposition, the ssk may be more flexible with its speed able to create a window to escape into. With bigger batteries comes more options.

 

[Joe Black]

Australia studies CEAFAR2 high-power PAR concept

Yet another interesting development for RAN:
Australia studies CEAFAR2 high-power PAR concept - IHS Jane's 360