Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
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A rare piece of sensible and informed commentary on the Collins class replacement from Graham Richardson in today's Australian.
Follow the first link to get past News Ltd.'s feeble paywall:
https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Arguments+for+Japanese+subs+blown+out+of+water
Follow the first link to get past News Ltd.'s feeble paywall:
https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Arguments+for+Japanese+subs+blown+out+of+water
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
That article did seem to effectively torpedoe much of the speculation about Japanese subs being appropriate for RAN service. It also did note that any real definite requirements for a future RAN sub have not been released, or (apparently) any tenders requested. To my mind, that suggests that either Gov't has NFI what they are looking for, or are likely quite specific but playing the cards close to their chest. Not sure which one it is.
I did have an interesting notion about the Collins-class SSG replacement.
Instead of purchasing a MOTS sub, or having ASC build subs in SA, have subs built in WA by Austal. This should help Austal maintain domestic product (for military projects at least) and keep the DefMin and perhaps more importantly his constituents happy.
The issue of building to the HSC standard should not be as much of an issue, since subs are naturally designed to sink. Using aluminium should reduce the overall displacement of the hull by mass, while increasing the overall volume of the sub. This potentially could allow longer submerged operations, as more air could fit into the hull volume. I wonder if this notion will occur to Mr. Johnston?
-Cheers
I did have an interesting notion about the Collins-class SSG replacement.
Instead of purchasing a MOTS sub, or having ASC build subs in SA, have subs built in WA by Austal. This should help Austal maintain domestic product (for military projects at least) and keep the DefMin and perhaps more importantly his constituents happy.
The issue of building to the HSC standard should not be as much of an issue, since subs are naturally designed to sink. Using aluminium should reduce the overall displacement of the hull by mass, while increasing the overall volume of the sub. This potentially could allow longer submerged operations, as more air could fit into the hull volume. I wonder if this notion will occur to Mr. Johnston?
-Cheers
Johnstons probably smart enough to see your suggestion as tongue in cheek but many of his cabnet mates would likely leap at the idea.
I can see the WA Senatorial mafia salivating already.....
someone at Austal probably has a powerpoint demo tucked away in advance
at least they won't have to worry about the superstructure burning merrily away when its submerged.
The ADF exists solely to serve the hard working (Liberal) Senators and MPs of WA. The RAAF is their private airline, while the RAN is their re-election ticket as you can expect to see a substantial amount of refit and maintenance work moved west to keep growth and employment ticking along as mining infrastructure levels out and then contracts.
The trouble is costs in the west are very high and the technical talent pool is quite shallow. Then there is Austal who use 457 visas to bring their Filipino employees (that they trained in the Philippines) in for peek labour requirements rather than employing and training Australians. Pretend the west is carrying the nation when in actual fact they are robbing Australian in general to make millionaires and billionaires richer while offshoring as much work and importing as much labour as possible.
If I am not careful I will start ranting about distorting the economy, driving up the Australian dollar and doing irreparable damage to other industries that the economy will need once the mining construction boom ends but wont be there because short sited governments, not only didn't protect them but also made things worse by signing one sided trade deals with major competitors to aid farmers and miners while removing what little protection was left.
To be honest, as a west aussie taxpayer, I don't want to see my tax dollars being spent on a company that has a hell of a lot of 457's working for it. If you are going to build ships in Australia, do it somewhere where they at least employ Australians. Otherwise go overseas. By the way, I live in the area and cannot see how Austal really benefits my community. It would be probably be economically better to see how to make this area more enticing for navy personnel.
t68
Well-Known Member
well I guess the way to combat the lopsided trade deals is mirror laws, if say for instance they have a tariff our whatever you want call it on imports to their country and we don't just mirror the tariff so its equal don't know if that would help or not.
these 457 visa are bunch of crock tried years ago to get into mining sector in WA but could not get a leg in, and gina saying not enough workers here bollocks
Because it was the ALP that started off the Collins, the Coalition have always been against them and rubbished the Collins at every opportunity, with the media in support. Rudd wanted 12 subs, now watch a different number being ordered. It is obvious that a buy Soryu built in Japan wont work, even the Japanese believe we should build own, but with their help. It is about time someone got on with the job and started making some decisions.
The offer made by the USA for us to acquire Virginia class nuclear subs and use the USA faciities to replenish etc., sounds attractive to me. Maybe a buy of say 4 Virginia class and 6/7 Collins II might be the best. Anyone have any idea what a Virginia sub would cost and how it would compare cost wise with Collins
nfloorl:II ?
The offer made by the USA for us to acquire Virginia class nuclear subs and use the USA faciities to replenish etc., sounds attractive to me. Maybe a buy of say 4 Virginia class and 6/7 Collins II might be the best. Anyone have any idea what a Virginia sub would cost and how it would compare cost wise with Collins
nfloorl:II ?
thats not happeningThe offer made by the USA for us to acquire Virginia class nuclear subs and use the USA faciities to replenish etc., sounds attractive to me. Maybe a buy of say 4 Virginia class and 6/7 Collins II might be the best. Anyone have any idea what a Virginia sub would cost and how it would compare cost wise with Collins
457 visa.....when i worked for Halliburton, Woodside poached some of our directional drilling techs. They left for woodside, as they could ern more driving a forklift, than could as a skilled tech, and the $ we were on, was pretty bloody good.
Forky,s were getting $150K sitting in a clean seat, in an airconned cab, DD Tech, covered in sweat and grease, in a hot workshop, $120K and bonuses.
Phillipino,s and Indonesians were employed, because you cant instantley train 5 or more techs. It takes years to be a good one.
Same goes for facility managers, better to fly in a Scotsman, Yank or Canadian (457 visas) as al the Aussie managers we had were next to useless, and wouldnt even be good for forklift drivers.
the iron ore train drivers are on $250k - and the trains are on autopilot for 99.5% of the journey
Austal would win the work because they were the cheapest of the Australian options, however they did this by using 457 visas instead of training Australians. The ACPB contract could have permitted BAE or ASC to retain the skilled trades required for the AWD and LHD projects while also providing the RAN with a more suitable, better value for money PB. Again an example of shocking Australian management.
Well, I'm one of those greedy, millionaire small businessmen you referred to! I employ backpackers for above award wages because I can't get any Australians interested to work for the wages we pay in marine hospitality and tourism. I can't compete with offshore ships and tugs ($200kplus) for marine staff so I'm still working at 68 for my $50k pa.
All the money I make during the tourist season I spend on refits incurring costs which offshore companies are happy to pay but I find crippling. I've been doing this for 18 yrs and just keeping my head above the poverty line so I can pay exorbitant penalty rates on weekends to backpackers who only want to work weekends.
I'm a good manager, we've won awards and are the longest surviving cruise company in Darwin. I work 7 days a week and have done that for a long time, I pay my taxes and my employees benefits ( 15 FTE) so when you make those remarks about small business managers and owners who put everything on the line to employ people you will excuse me if I get angry.
There is fault in many places but it is not any single group in an enterprise. Unions have as much if not more to answer for the ridiculous wages and inflated conditions given for unskilled labour as the stupid enterprises that allow it.
Ahh yes, but its where you drive the fork lift!
The Pilbra sucks!
looking at 40 deg days, every day, untill about midnight where it cools down to about 28. Then theres the accomodation....hotels are booked out 12 months in advance, as are hire cars.
If your company dosnt give you accomodation, and you have to rent, then a 3 bedroom house, crappy at that, will cost $1500 a week, thats at 2006 prices. I had a counter lunch at a pup in dampier, same year, a beer, steak and chips cost $40.
So, 150k a year, unless you have company accomodation and subsidised power etc, is really more like 80 to 90k a year when you take in account of cost of living.
Some of the north western rentals were $2500k per week last year - and the locals were getting forced out as they couldn't afford the rents
You are not who or what I am referring to, to start with you are a competent, hard working individual who built your own business from nothing after serving you county for years. As you said you are a good manager and have received multiple awards in recognition of your achievements, this alone separates you from the lazy, greedy, incompetent individuals I am referring to. Your business generates wealth, provides gainful employment and pays taxes. It provides a service and also supports other businesses by using the services they provide. You need back packers to fill gaps so you can conduct your business but you are also competing in a completely distorted labour market that is driving your costs through the roof. You are a victim of what I am complaining about and definitely not part of the problem. I have seen some small business owners behave dishonestly to gain unfair advantage over their competition that operates within the rules. They are also what I am complaining about, I.e. look at NSW and developers giving money to politicians, that is the sort of thing I am complaining about. Big business donating money and running advertising campaign's to change the view of government or to change the government to get rid of taxes or to get concessions. They win and the net tax payers lose ( middle class and SME owners), being left to pay the share of the big end of town.as well as subsidising the bottom end.
You and those like you are not the target of my complaint, you are the ones that the visas exist for. Companies like Austal on the other hand compete for and win government contracts, tendering unsuitable products that they lack the workforce to deliver denying work and driving up costs for other companies that provide strategic capabilities to the nation. Because the strategically critical companies miss out on work to the likes of Austal they need to make highly competent, trained and experienced workers redundant but then, when the contracts such as the AWD and LHD come around they have to hire and train new workers who take time to get up to speed increasing risks costs and causing delays on these critical major projects. A major company using political connections to win work that leaves the ADF with substandard capabilities while increasing the cost and risk of major capabilities, this is an example of greed on the part of the company and poor management on the part of the government.
This has nothing to do with hard working small and medium business owners, who employ Australians, and offer fair wages to Australians, hiring foreign workers to fill gaps in their operations so they can get the job done. It has nothing to do with any business hiring an overseas expert to fill a gap and mentor Australians. If there are no Australians available to do the job, to the standard required for the award pay, then that is one of the situations the visas are for. An established business, bidding for tax payer funded work but intending to import the technical personnel to do the work with no intention of training or mentoring Australians is an entirely different matter. They are taking tax payers money and delivering a substandard product while providing no economic or strategic advantage what so ever. It is a waste of tax payers money, which makes me angry, the product is not value for money, which annoys me and there is not even a return to the Australian economy through employing and training Australians.
What you and others like you do is completely different, to start with you provide a service that generates income rather than taking tax payers money to do something another entity could have done better. Yes you employ back packers but that is to fill gaps as there is a shortage of people in your industry caused by the distortion of the labor market by current short term projects. If anything there is probably justification to support and compensate local businesses whose operating costs have been increased by this distortion. It is businesses like yours that we need to stay open and provide the service, employment and taxes that will keep the economy ticking over when the big projects wind up.
What I am complaining about is what is hurting you as a business owner and a tax payer. The greed I refer to is those with luxury lifestyles taking tax payers money to employ people on 457s while damaging, or even driving out of business other companies that employ and train Australians while delivering strategically vital capabilities..
I have very little time for unions and have chosen to have nothing to do with them since moving off the shop floor. The poor management and greed I complain about is rampant in the union movement as is nepotism. There are projects that have been killed by union demands. Put yourself in my shoes, an over paid incompetent manager screws up and I am given the job of fixing things. It is 7 days a week up to 20 hours but more usually 14-15 hours a day until its done, also pulling all-nighters' to meet milestones in the project. I get it done, I get a pat on the back and taken out for lunch by my boss, no penalty rates, no time off in lieu, no bonuses and a 2.5% pay rise because that's all that can be afforded. The shop floor is offered 3.5%, take industrial action and get 4.5%, their campaign includes attacking "over paid under worked" white collar and technical staff ( I.e. me), the media, unions and politicians of all make a big deal about how good the "workers" are and criticize staff, blaming us for the problems with the project. Heres the rub, almost all the blue collars and all the managers took home substantially more pay than techos like me, they worked less hours than people like me, while the blue collars may have trades and the managers may have gone to uni the techos like me almost all have both trade and tertiary qualifications, we could do their jobs but they couldn't do ours. Management is a closed club, membership by invitation only, then there is the closed shop run by the union. Two closed clubs looking after their members and shafting non members by default. Is there any surprise that there is a shortage of competent technical people in Australia? Now manufacturing and heavy industry are on the decline, the only industries technical people like me could hope to earn a fair wage, for the sakes of our families we will or should move into other fields or even move overseas.
I and many like me, I include SMEs where the owners are hands on in this, are stuck in the middle between unionized labor, incompetent management and greedy "owners" of big or connected companies. For instance Gina and co get tax breaks and foreign labor concessions you, as a small business owner, could never access. Unionized labor get pay and conditions far above that justified by their level of skill, education and experience. How much damage is being done to the economy when productive highly skilled and qualified individuals, be they trade, technical, professional, SMEs etc. can earn more money working as a cleaner, forklift driver etc. on a big, short term, economy distorting project?
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Did a two year stint there before the boom, never got paid anything like the rates that came with the boom. I has hollowed out the local workforce and made everything very expensive.
On the flip side as constrution is completed the camps are less used and FI FO is less attractive for maintenance of production ........ that could get interesting.
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