EEZ's go out quite a bit further than TTW's, and it seems quite a bit of their future economic plan depends on those resources.
Kind of important if you want to be a maritime nation.
The Scottish Navy
- Thread starter JohnT
- Start date
Kind of important if you want to be a maritime nation.
THIS. Two frigates, even in tip-top condition, will not be enough to cover those vast areas. It's a simple numbers game.
Of much more importance will be the RN's ballistic submarine force, their nuclear deterrent. The Scots want the nukes out of Scotland, and where in the UK will they be relocated to the UK? The missile facility along with the submarine base are located currently in Scotland. Will this be the end of the RN's nuclear deterrent? Big strategic issues are at stake in this referendum.
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
Submarines themselves could go to Devonport where the Trafalgar's and all the previous classes of Hunter-Killer submarines have been based.
Coulport would of course need to be rebuilt elsewhere.
The SNP should start paying attention to whats happening to the Norwegians and the Canadians in their northern waters.
A scottish fisheries fleet will have bugger all capability in the next 10 years when that area starts to go pear shaped
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Talking of the Type 26 Frigates, what will be the impact on that program if the 'yes' vote does succeed and the UK's armed forces are divided up?
Scotland could either just want a force based on OPV's as the most capable ships, or on the other hand it might want, say, 2-3 Type 23 Frigates for example.
When it come time to replace the 'Scottish' T23's, the Scottish Government may not necessarily want to replace them with equivalent numbers of T26's or may in fact not have the money to do so.
So what does the UK Government do about the 'new' RN's fleet of 13 'planned' replacement T26's? Does it cut the production run to say 10 or 11?
If it does, then I'd imagine that the unit cost might increase, if unit cost increases that might also negatively affect potential export orders too, (there are other factors too that could affect export as we have seen recently, the possibility of the T26 ending up in RAN service for example is looking a bit shaky with the Australian Government looking to 're-use' the AWD hulls for the Future Frigate).
This is only the tip of the iceberg, I'm sure there are many many other examples where future procurement programs (and numbers) will be affected by Scotland leaving the Union if the Yes vote succeeds.
I hope, fingers crossed, the vote is a resounding NO!
On a personal note, I hope that my very very distant Scottish relatives have the sense to say no! My Scottish roots in Australia go back to the very early 1830's when my Great, Great, Great, Grandfather, Donald McDonald, (can't get much more Scottish than that!) arrived in Sydney from Braemar, he was followed by the McCalls, the Dunns and the Doulls.
Well a country with a similar population mass would be Slovakia. They struggle to maintain an army of 15K and an airforce of 12 Mig 29s. Let alone a navy.
I suggest that Scotland would struggle to maintain any frigates what-so-ever and would also struggle with joining NATO and therefore having access to secrets and technology for several years.
Shipbuilding? UK Government have stated - no RN ships will be built outside the UK.
SSBN fleet. Take it on the chin and relocate them - despite the cost.
BAE have invested in Barrow - could they resume surface warship building as well as the Successor programme? The grown ups can answer that one, but I expect an announcement on T26 soon after the vote.
I suggest that Scotland would struggle to maintain any frigates what-so-ever and would also struggle with joining NATO and therefore having access to secrets and technology for several years.
Shipbuilding? UK Government have stated - no RN ships will be built outside the UK.
SSBN fleet. Take it on the chin and relocate them - despite the cost.
BAE have invested in Barrow - could they resume surface warship building as well as the Successor programme? The grown ups can answer that one, but I expect an announcement on T26 soon after the vote.
Slovakia is much poorer than Scotland. Finland is probably the nearest European country in population & wealth to Scotland. Denmark is next closest: about has about the same population but is richer than Finland, & Norway richer still, & less comparable than Slovakia.
Slovakia is, as said, much poorer, landlocked, & almost all its borders (save only a short stretch in the east) are with NATO allies or neutral & harmless Austria. It's currently negotiating to replace its old MiG-29 maintenance hogs with newer, cheaper to operate, Gripens.
Finland has a navy of small missile boats, mine warfare vessels (including several minelayers) & other small vessels. It operates in very different waters & circumstances from Scotland's. The Finnish air force has about 60 F-18 fighters, which it's kept up to date. Because of the constricted waters around Finland, it does not feel any need for specialist MPAs. The Finnish army is much more powerful than envisaged by the SNP. It has 100 Leopard 2A4 tanks, plus older Soviet tanks which it's about to replace with 100 Leopard 2A6; a lot more other AFVs than the SNP dreams of, & a massive artillery force.
Denmark is probably the closest in terms of circumstances. 24000 armed forces, plus 12000 reserves & 51000 in the volunteer Home Guard.
Navy: three 5500 ton 'frigates' (new) with destroyer armament, two multi-role ships on the same hull with light frigate armament, four 3500 ton ice-strengthened ocean patrol ships, two 2000 ton ice-strengthened OPVs plus one on order, six small patrol boats & a number of small miesweepers, survery vessels etc. More than the SNP dares dream of.
Air force: 30 operational F-16s (15 others are stored), scheduled to be replaced by about the same number of new fighters, with F-35A probably first choice. Four C-130J, four small VIP bizjets, 14 EH101, 7 Lynx (to be replaced by 9 SH-60) & 8 Fennec helicopters.
Army: 57 Leopard 2A5, & several hundred other AFVs fromm CV90 to armoured Humvees, & including a lot of M113s heavily upgraded by Flensburger.
Denmark affords that on 1.4% of GDP. That'd be about 1.7%-1.8% of Scotland's GDP.
Anixtu
New Member
OPVs for EEZ patrol. ASW Frigates are overkill. Scotland isn't going to war with anyone. There is no plausible threat.
Frigates would simply be a vanity project.
I quite agree - but their white paper states :
"Defence capabilities at the point of independence
Maritime forces
One naval squadron to secure Scotland's maritime interests and Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and contribute to joint capability with partners in Scotland's geographical neighbourhood, consisting of:
two frigates from the Royal Navy's current fleet
a command platform for naval operations and development of specialist marine capabilities (from the Royal Navy's current fleet, following adaptation)
four mine counter measure vessels from the Royal Navy's current fleet
two offshore patrol vessels (OPVs) to provide security for the 200 nautical mile Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ). However, as the Royal Navy only has four OPVs currently[262], a longer lead time for procurement might be necessary
four to six patrol boats from the Royal Navy's current fleet, capable of operating in coastal waters, providing fleet protection and also contributing to securing borders
auxiliary support ships (providing support to vessels on operations), which could be secured on a shared basis initially with the rest of the UK
These arrangements will require around 2,000 regular and at least 200 reserve personnel."
I've just had to read their independenc white paper to find that nugget and my head now hurts with the contradictions.
On the one part, they're claiming that Scotland joined the EU in 73 (it did not, the UK did, and thereby, Scotland) and on the other they claim exemption from the ERM II end of things on the grounds that the UK (and therefore Scotland) already is outside the Eurozone. Cake, having, consuming.
"Defence capabilities at the point of independence
Maritime forces
One naval squadron to secure Scotland's maritime interests and Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and contribute to joint capability with partners in Scotland's geographical neighbourhood, consisting of:
two frigates from the Royal Navy's current fleet
a command platform for naval operations and development of specialist marine capabilities (from the Royal Navy's current fleet, following adaptation)
four mine counter measure vessels from the Royal Navy's current fleet
two offshore patrol vessels (OPVs) to provide security for the 200 nautical mile Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ). However, as the Royal Navy only has four OPVs currently[262], a longer lead time for procurement might be necessary
four to six patrol boats from the Royal Navy's current fleet, capable of operating in coastal waters, providing fleet protection and also contributing to securing borders
auxiliary support ships (providing support to vessels on operations), which could be secured on a shared basis initially with the rest of the UK
These arrangements will require around 2,000 regular and at least 200 reserve personnel."
I've just had to read their independenc white paper to find that nugget and my head now hurts with the contradictions.
On the one part, they're claiming that Scotland joined the EU in 73 (it did not, the UK did, and thereby, Scotland) and on the other they claim exemption from the ERM II end of things on the grounds that the UK (and therefore Scotland) already is outside the Eurozone. Cake, having, consuming.
kev 99
Member
Almost certainly no, BAE have had issues with staff numbers at Barrow, adding construction of surface ships as well as subs would just exasperate that, realistically the only time Barrow has really built ships is when there has been a shortage or no, submarine work.
What are the criteria?
Minimum investment needed. As much as possible already on site. No building of new docks, for example.
Workforce. Must be a skilled workforce as a core to build on. Must be somewhere that other workers - e.g. from the Clyde - might be tempted to move to. The further north the better, the cheaper the housing the better - & preferably a nice place to live.
Barrow's not a big town, so an influx of new workers could be hard to handle. Otherwise it fits the bill.
Cammell Laird has the physical facilities & the area can absorb the people. Luckily, because the current workforce & local pool of skilled workers aren't big enough. It'd depend on hiring in from elsewhere. But if the Clyde yards aren't getting the business . . . . .
Minimum investment needed. As much as possible already on site. No building of new docks, for example.
Workforce. Must be a skilled workforce as a core to build on. Must be somewhere that other workers - e.g. from the Clyde - might be tempted to move to. The further north the better, the cheaper the housing the better - & preferably a nice place to live.
Barrow's not a big town, so an influx of new workers could be hard to handle. Otherwise it fits the bill.
Cammell Laird has the physical facilities & the area can absorb the people. Luckily, because the current workforce & local pool of skilled workers aren't big enough. It'd depend on hiring in from elsewhere. But if the Clyde yards aren't getting the business . . . . .
I am not sure that you can compare the economy of Denmark with that of Scotland:
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Denmark"]Economy of Denmark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Although I do welcome the debate!
Scotland also has a large public sector - around 30% similar to Denmark, but which Scottish politicians would advocate the same rate of taxation?
Furthermore, Denmark has national economic heroes - Bacon (featured in an Economist article about four months ago), Bang and Olufsen and others - no Scottish heroes spring to mind.
We shall have to agree to disagree, I do not think Scotland will be able to afford anything like the forces you state Denmark has.
Drumroll...
Pallion Shipyard - Ship Building, Maintenance and Repair in Sunderland
181 metre dry dock, direct access to the North Sea bags of local talent, the night life is rather splendid (I defy anyone not to be moved by Bigg Market at full surge, possibly to A&E but moved you will be)
The Scots would fit right in, the house prices are near match, transport links are good and may improve with Teeside opening up a new airport shortlyish.
Or Able..
Dry Dock | Able UK
You could get both CVF in there side by side. With room to spare.
Anixtu
New Member
That's why I give the white paper a good ignoring. It's all part of the SNP fantasy world. The hardware wishlist can be taken as their initial negotiating position, to be negotiated away in exchange for debt reduction or preferred assets. If EWNI feel like negotiating much.
Anixtu
New Member
Err...
Whisky.
Oil.
Financial services.
There's a Wikipedia page for Scotland's economy too, but I'd be careful as it's probably heavily subject to propaganda edits.
Er. Whisky. Some Scots distillers have said that a Yes vote will hurt them.Err...
Whisky.
Oil.
Financial services.
There's a Wikipedia page for Scotland's economy too, but I'd be careful as it's probably heavily subject to propaganda edits.
Financial services? Heading south.
Oil? Running out.
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