The Scottish Navy

[JohnT]

Perhaps this is overly pessimistic but with the referendum just four days away, and with the vote too close to call, I think it's worth seriously discussing how the Royal Navy will be affected in the event of Scotland choosing independence. The RN would suffer even more so than the other service branches due to its dependence on Scottish shipbuilding (e.g the QE carriers), as well as the fact that a significant part of the British fleet is based in Faslane, most importantly the SSBNs.

I'd be interested to hear anyone's thoughts on what independence would mean for the RN, as well as what a future Scottish Navy might look like. For example would it be an expeditionary force, or merely a coastal/fishing protection force?

 

[alexsa]

Perhaps this is overly pessimistic but with the referendum just four days away, and with the vote too close to call, I think it's worth seriously discussing how the Royal Navy will be affected in the event of Scotland choosing independence. The RN would suffer even more so than the other service branches due to its dependence on Scottish shipbuilding (e.g the QE carriers), as well as the fact that a significant part of the British fleet is based in Faslane, most importantly the SSBNs.

I'd be interested to hear anyone's thoughts on what independence would mean for the RN, as well as what a future Scottish Navy might look like. For example would it be an expeditionary force, or merely a coastal/fishing protection force?

It is all speculative and there will be a lot of negotiation should the vote be a yes. I suggest we wait a couple of days before looking at this.

I am just back from London and the news is interesting overthere. The polls are based on 800 to 900 persons and the figures they provide excludes the undecided voters. The undecided makes up 20% according to some so cold feet may see quite a few NO votes coming in.

Mr Salmon was furious that many business executives have indicated they will vote wiht their feet and move south if the vote is YES as they cannot afford to be in a non-EU country (as Scotland will be) this includes the Royal Bank of Scotland. I suspect such moves will have an impact on the undecided voters.

Teh YES camp were smart to allow 16 YO to vote as much of their mandate comes from the young voters. Even there the possiblity of increased costs (as indicated by some store chains) and loss of jobs is causing unease,

It will be interesting.

 

[JohnT]

"It is all speculative and there will be a lot of negotiation should the vote be a yes. I suggest we wait a couple of days before looking at this. "

I have to disagree with you there, since many voters are still undecided these are the kinds of issues which need to be discussed before we go to the polls.

However, given that the vote is so close it could all come down to quite arbitrary factors such as what the weather is like on Thursday, which will affect how many older voters can make it to the polling stations. Regardless of how the vote goes half of Scotland is going to be very, very disappointed on Friday morning, and there'll be a lot of Scots drowning their sorrows this weekend. Just have to hope it all stays peaceful and doesn't descend into rioting/revolution.

 

[hauritz]

If it were to happen the settlement would be a long drawn out process.

I don't think the Scots would have any blue water aspirations. Just some OPVs to patrol the north sea.

The UK might also lose a couple of Type 23s from its shrinking escort fleet.

 

[KiwiRob]

It's not just the vessels, it's not a given that the crews of the vessels handed over would want to go as well, that would be the same with all branches of the UK armed forces, it's appears that Salmond expects Scots serving would change country, I doubt that that would be the case for most. The other interesting one is intelligence services and foreign owned territory ie embassies and such like.

 

[RobWilliams]

Indeed, from what I've been hearing the vast majority of Scots service personnel wish to remain in UK service because of better career prospects (promotion) and a better service to see the world.

Not to mention that there's a good number who would have voted No and like the union anyway.

 

[StobieWan]

It's not just the vessels, it's not a given that the crews of the vessels handed over would want to go as well, that would be the same with all branches of the UK armed forces, it's appears that Salmond expects Scots serving would change country, I doubt that that would be the case for most. The other interesting one is intelligence services and foreign owned territory ie embassies and such like.

Legal advice on that stuff is that "state institutions" remain the property of rUK so nothing to see here, move along, find your own.

Navy wise, they've stated an intention to retain two frigates from the current fleet (ie, ones that are afloat and in service, not a ratty pair of Type 22's tied alongside and slowly sinking.)

That plus some sort of OPV fleet and they're done I believe.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Indeed, from what I've been hearing the vast majority of Scots service personnel wish to remain in UK service because of better career prospects (promotion) and a better service to see the world.

Not to mention that there's a good number who would have voted No and like the union anyway.

multiple choice, stay in the RN, see the world, work with other navies and have a career, or join the Scottish Navy and become a fisheries officer

 

[StobieWan]

As I think someone acidly put it, join the Scottish Navy, see the Clyde..

 

[Anixtu]

I'd be interested to hear anyone's thoughts on what independence would mean for the RN, as well as what a future Scottish Navy might look like. For example would it be an expeditionary force, or merely a coastal/fishing protection force?

The Scottish Defence Force would look a lot like Ireland's armed forces. Similar international outlook, similar geographic location, similar threats.

 

[John Fedup]

The Scottish Defence Force would look a lot like Ireland's armed forces. Similar international outlook, similar geographic location, similar threats.

Like Canada, an independent Scotland would merely do some minor defence expenditures for show and let their neighbour to the south do the heavy lifting.

 

[RobWilliams]

The funny part is that they want some Challenger 2s, itself not a problem as there's hundreds in storage, but by their own admission the SNP foresees only UN peacekeeping roles for Scottish forces abroad, factor In the apparent lack of planned ability to move them anywhere and you start to think an armoured unit being an expensive (both in terms of money and personnel) and pointless endeavour.

 

[FormerDirtDart]

The funny part is that they want some Challenger 2s, itself not a problem as there's hundreds in storage, but by their own admission the SNP foresees only UN peacekeeping roles for Scottish forces abroad, factor In the apparent lack of planned ability to move them anywhere and you start to think an armoured unit being an expensive (both in terms of money and personnel) and pointless endeavour.

Well sure, but, they do look smashing on parade.

 

[JohnT]

Navy wise, they've stated an intention to retain two frigates from the current fleet (ie, ones that are afloat and in service, not a ratty pair of Type 22's tied alongside and slowly sinking.)

Given that the Type 23s are due to be phased out anyway starting from around 2020 (about the time Scotland would actually become autonomous) I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem for the RN.

However there would be a multitude of problems for the future Scottish Navy. They would be inheriting the vessels just as they began to become obsolete (bare in mind that the Type 23s are already old) and they might not have access to the new Type 26. I'm also skeptical that such a small force could maintain all of the complicated technology and weapons systems aboard the ships. Scotland would therefore probably end up heavily reliant on the UK for their maintenance. In addition there would be significant problems with crewing. As another poster pointed out most RN personnel aren't going to be happy about throwing away their job prospects, not to mention leaving Her Majesty's Armed Forces, and going to work for a small coastal defense force.

 

[Kiwigov]

The Scottish Defence Force would look a lot like Ireland's armed forces. Similar international outlook, similar geographic location, similar threats.

Though I recall the Russian Navy recently sent a destroyer to 'test' UK defences around Scotland, and (eventually) a Daring-class ship confronted it. I understand the SNP has been making some play of this in the campaign.
The implications for Eire of Scots independence would be interesting; they've always had the shield of the RN presence in Scotland, so their OPVs have never had to 'confront' actual warships. Without a real Scottish Navy, then there would be lots of opportunities for Russian mischief - protection of their fisheries fleets, for instance.

 

[JohnT]

Though I recall the Russian Navy recently sent a destroyer to 'test' UK defences around Scotland, and (eventually) a Daring-class ship confronted it. I understand the SNP has been making some play of this in the campaign.
The implications for Eire of Scots independence would be interesting; they've always had the shield of the RN presence in Scotland, so their OPVs have never had to 'confront' actual warships. Without a real Scottish Navy, then there would be lots of opportunities for Russian mischief - protection of their fisheries fleets, for instance.

Even if the the Scottish Navy did operate two frigates as the SNP are proposing then I doubt that would be enough to always have one ship available for interception, especially if the frigates also took part in international operations away from Scotland. There's also the problem that Faslane is located on the West coast, meaning it would take several days to reach the North Sea.

 

[Anixtu]

The implications for Eire of Scots independence would be interesting; they've always had the shield of the RN presence in Scotland, so their OPVs have never had to 'confront' actual warships. Without a real Scottish Navy, then there would be lots of opportunities for Russian mischief - protection of their fisheries fleets, for instance.

Have I missed the reports of where Ireland's TTW have been plagued by Russian marauders? Scotland would be quite capable of showing utter indifference to Russian naval or air units loitering outside TTWs. Why should they care?

 

[swerve]

Given that the Type 23s are due to be phased out anyway starting from around 2020 (about the time Scotland would actually become autonomous) I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem for the RN.

However there would be a multitude of problems for the future Scottish Navy. They would be inheriting the vessels just as they began to become obsolete (bare in mind that the Type 23s are already old) ...

The RN's Type 23s were commissioned between 1991 & 2002. The scheduled retirement dates run from 2023 to 2036. They're getting a comprehensive update to last until then, with new radars (Artisan), SAMs (CAMM) etc., which will be carried over to Type 26 as the T23s retire. Iron Duke was the first to get the new radar, last year, & she's scheduled to retire in 2025. Argyll (OSD 2023, 1st to go) also has it now. Both have shot down targets while using it for missile guidance, this year.

So Scotland can get two ships with new radars but which are getting old & scheduled to retire in the early-mid 2020s, or two of the newest, with old equipment which will soon no longer be supported. nfloorl:


PS. Monmouth is next, followed by Montrose. Both in refit now.

 

[John Fedup]

The RN's Type 23s were commissioned between 1991 & 2002. The scheduled retirement dates run from 2023 to 2036. They're getting a comprehensive update to last until then, with new radars (Artisan), SAMs (CAMM) etc., which will be carried over to Type 26 as the T23s retire. Iron Duke was the first to get the new radar, last year, & she's scheduled to retire in 2025.

So Scotland can get two ships with new radars but which are getting old & scheduled to retire in the early-mid 2020s, or two of the newest, with old equipment which will soon no longer be supported. nfloorl:

Cruel but true, these Type 23 ships are almost brand new compared to most of the RCN's ships and are roughly the same age as our Halifax class which are undergoing modernization which will extend service out to the early 2030s.

 

[StobieWan]

If they do, I vote we give the two an honour guard with a Type 26. Sort of a "ner ner ner..."