Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
There’s quite a few remaining in the boneyard maybe that’s what they got their eye on
I thought most of these were scrapped after we got our G's and most of what was left was pretty ratty (and why we didn't take any more)?

I think that would be an even harder sell to people, that the answer to Australia's airforce in 2030 has been lying in a bone yard for ~40 years.

Particularly when we could be looking at what sort of an impact a squadron of F-35B's would have on the RAAF and the ADF as a whole etc.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I thought most of these were scrapped after we got our G's and most of what was left was pretty ratty (and why we didn't take any more)?

I think that would be an even harder sell to people, that the answer to Australia's airforce in 2030 has been lying in a bone yard for ~40 years.

Particularly when we could be looking at what sort of an impact a squadron of F-35B's would have on the RAAF and the ADF as a whole etc.
Particularly as a squadron of F-35Bs, deployed from the LHDs, would add a level of capability and flexibility never before seen in the ADF. The only time we would have comparatively come close was when HMAS Sydney was rerolled as a strike carrier during the Korean war. Even then the Seafuries were already outclassed by the Mig 15s where the Lightnings will for the first time in the history of Australian military aviation be up there with the best available.

Think about it, the F-35 will be the first combat aircraft the ADF has ever had that wasn't already outclassed when it entered service. It will be the first time we have ever had the best available in service and if we opt for the B as well then the flexibility of how the capability can be deployed will increase exponentially. For the first time ever the RAAF will actually be able to effectively defend the fleet at sea. For the first time ever the ADF will be able to deploy a state of the art combat aircraft from the sea, one that is not only able to hold its own against any potential opposition but completely outmatch anything other than another F-35 for a decade or more.

The RAAF will for the first time ever deploy the best combat aircraft in the world and there are still people out there who actually believe there are better, more affordable and capable options! The F-35 is like having the Spitfire at the start of WWII, the Hawker Typhoon to defend Darwin, the Sabre at the start of Korea, the F-106 to counter Indonesia's Tu-16s and Mig 17/19/21s in the late 50s early 60s, the F-4 at sea in the mid 60s and the F-14 or 15 in service in the late 70s or early 80s. Traditionally the ADF has had to make do with what was available or what was deemed affordable, which was never the best. Usually we got away with it but sometimes Australians died and missions failed because the gear was not up to the job. Now for the first time ever we will be getting the very best that is available anywhere.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Hornet was outclassed when it entered service? And again, Super Hornet?

Outclassed by what?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Hornet was outclassed when it entered service? And again, Super Hornet?

Outclassed by what?
F-14/15, SU-27 and then for the SH the latest iterations of the F-15E and SUXX, not to forget the F-22. All IMO I admit and it is possible to retrospectively say what was chosen was better because it was a better fit logistically, was available earlier, was cheaper etc. that doesn't mean you need to agree with me or vice versa.

In terms of speed, range, avionics and weapons load both the Tomcat and Eagle outperformed the Hornet, which is why they cost a lot more. I do not argue that the SH was the logical choice but it is a stretch rating it over the contemporary Eagles procured by Singapore and South Korea or the Eurofighter Typhoon come to think of it.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
You're comparing multi-role aircraft with single-role fighters. Then the same would apply when comparing F-35 with F-22?

When the classic Hornet came out there was no such thing as an F-15E, and nothing else could touch it for its multirole capabilities.

I'd also suggest that a fully sorted Block II Super Hornet can probably demonstrate more capability than an F-15E/K/SG, Typhoon and Su-30 too.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Goon touts himself as the "former head RAAF FTE" which is just not true,
LOL. And you know I stumbled recently across a gem doing some historical research. The main thing Goon ever designed that was hung on an aircraft was the bomb bay luggage rack for the P-3 Orion. So when they deploy overseas the crew can load up on duty free to bring back home. But far from being an innovative solution for a requirement it was a copy. Bomb bay luggage racks were supplied as standard for an RAF requirement on the V Bombers back in the 50s!

while Jensen claims he is a "former defence scientist", but fails to mention in what field (it was ATC).
He was actually a defence scientist after he worked in SAAF and RAAF air traffic control. But his speciality is in the crystalline structure of ceramics. So no doubt very insightful on how to make better armour plate or heat tiles but no frigging idea about air combat and force structure.

stifled at the ministerial level
Everything wrong in defence in five words or less.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
You're comparing multi-role aircraft with single-role fighters. Then the same would apply when comparing F-35 with F-22?

When the classic Hornet came out there was no such thing as an F-15E, and nothing else could touch it for its multirole capabilities.

I'd also suggest that a fully sorted Block II Super Hornet can probably demonstrate more capability than an F-15E/K/SG, Typhoon and Su-30 too.
Yes I am comparing single role fighters with a multi role fighter, does being multi role mean the F/A-18 will somehow be superior in the air to air role? No it means it will be better in the air to ground role than a purposed designed single role fighter, unless of course that single role fighter is adapted and upgraded as the F-15 was. Besides we already had the F-111 and for that matter the Skyhawk, if that was insufficient we could have affordably acquired some A-7, Jaguars or even AV-8Bs. I still think it would have been worth retiring some Mirages in the 70s to retain the F-4Es which would have made the selection of a single role fighter in the 80s easier.

With an F-15C/D buy we could even have gone for a high low mix with the F-16 and subsequently replaced the F-111 with F-15E. My understanding was that the F-15 was offered as compliant to the Australian requirements, i.e. a compliant strike capability although not as capable as that offered by the Hornet. I also understand that the F-16 is a superior strike platform to the Hornet and a better dog fighter while I imagine with a smaller radar not as good at BVR.

This could be discussed for weeks and when it comes down to it someone could effectively argue that the F-5A would have been a better option than the Mirage and someone else could equally suggest the F-4C was the obvious choice with some very convincing arguements. An ex RAAF acquaintance has even put forward a well thought out and believable scenario where the RAAF replaces the Mirage III with the Mirage F-1 in the 70s leading to the selection of the perfectly good enough Rafale in the early 2000s. It was all in good fun but does make you think.

Personally as a tax payer I am glad the F-35A has been selected and that the F-35B is a possibility but am not so sure about the selections beforehand, i.e. the Meteor, Sabre, Mirage, F-111, Classic and SH and personally believe we could have done better by the RAAF with the strategic environment in which it operated as each decision was made and industry, especially considering the amount of money that was spent over the years.

The SH Block II is a capable platform and was the best available considering the corner we had painted ourselves into. It made sense in terms of availability, logistics, some level of commonality with the classic and its improvement over existing capabilities. It was the right aircraft for the RAAF at the time, however none of that makes it a superior platform to contemporary F-15E or Typhoons.

Also I can not see what the fact that the out of production and unavailable F-22 is a superior air to air platform has to do with my comment that the F-35 is currently the best available combat aircraft for the RAAF. The F-15 was in production and on offer to the RAAF when the classic was selected, as it entered production for the RAAF and when it entered service, it may still be in production when the last classic is retired from the RAAF for all I know, a very different situation to the F-22.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I don't want to labour this, but...

The classic Hornet in 1980/81 when it was selected, was the BEST multirole fighter available. We didn't want a dogfighter, and we already had a strike aircraft (F-111), so to compare it with F-14/F-15/Su-27 which at the time had little or no air-to-ground capability is not comparing apples with apples...

It's now 25 years down the track, and take into account making direct comparisons between platforms is always fraught with the risk of being labelled a basement-dweller... But I would argue that if you put its speed and range performances aside, the F/A-18F Block II has a more integrated weapons system and sensor/comms package and as such, on paper at least is a better all-round strike fighter than either the F-15SG or the Su-30, and is certainly far more developed than the Typhoon.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
you can't look at platforms in isolation either - its a package/systems issue

which means that the variables just go through the roof
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
I don't want to labour this, but...

The classic Hornet in 1980/81 when it was selected, was the BEST multirole fighter available.
Thanks for this Magoo,

It was a long time ago but I can remember a big F-15E article in Australian Aviation but can't remember the context.

Was it a suggested F-111 replacement at one point?

Would almost undoubtedly have still been in service if this had have actually occurred.

Regards,

Massive
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks for this Magoo,

It was a long time ago but I can remember a big F-15E article in Australian Aviation but can't remember the context.

Was it a suggested F-111 replacement at one point?

Would almost undoubtedly have still been in service if this had have actually occurred.

Regards,

Massive
I remember they also had an article suggesting the F/A-18D as a suitable F-111 replacement.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Just some corrections to widely held assumptions and some input in the F/A-18 original selection discussion.

Firstly the F-15A as designed and built was not just an air to air platform. The mantra of “not a pound for air to ground” was just a slogan. The aircraft was designed and built from the first production units with significant and highly capable air to ground capability. This is why Israel became the first export customer selected the F-15A.

The F-15A mission systems included three specific radar modes dual use of nose wheel steering for EO steering and six modes for weapons delivery. As a bomber the F-15A outperformed the F-111D (!) achieving a bombing accuracy of 4-8 mils CEP compared to 7-15 mils CEP.

The F-15A was also designed to carry lots of air to ground weapons without degrading air to air capability. This is why the Sparrows are on the fuselage edges and the Sidewinders on the sides of the wing pylons. So the full 4-4 ATA missile load can be carried and fired regardless of the air to ground weapons load (actually a tender requirement for the F/X program). F-15A bomb racks were also designed and built to withstand 7.33 G (previous bomb rack standard was 5G) and fly at up to Mach 1 at sea level and Mach 1.4 at 20,000 feet.

The F-15A could carry and release either 18 Mk 82 500 lbs bombs (including Snakeyes), three Mk 84 2,000 lbs bombs, nine 800 lbs fire bombs (Naplam), three Mk 84 LGBs (Paveway), three Mk 84 EO (GBU-15), three Mk 84 IR (?), 12 800 lbs cluster bombs (CBU) or 18 Rockeye 500 lbs cluster bombs. It was also fully tested for release of these weapons during aircraft development. Also the F-15A had two more under wing pylons specially for carrying ECM or EO guidance pods.

In addition McAir were also developing what they then called the “RF-15A” which was a two seat TF-15A (later renamed the F-15B) with a system operators station in the aft seat. This was still the 1970s and well before the F-15E which was based on the RF-15 but with a reinforced airframe, more powerful engines and USAF speced avionics. The original RF-15 removed the 20mm gun and replaced the ammo drum of it with an internal EO pod similar to PAVE TACK. It also added the FAST packs and new radar modes, data links (incl for video and this was the 1970s) plus LORAN and GPS navigation (yes GPS is that old).

However despite all this the F/A-18 was still a better choice for the RAAF as it was in the late 1970s, early 1980s (this is my second point). The Hornet was half a generation more advanced than the Eagle with more advanced (and better) cockpit and engines. Since weight back then (and still now) very much sets aircraft price it was also cheaper to buy. And the Hornet came as standard with Harpoon anti ship missiles integrated onto the aircraft (even if the Govt. doesn’t pay for them straight away).

But personally I think the Hornet won because it was far more aligned to how the RAAF tactical fighter community flew and trained in the 70s and 80s. The F-15A is very much built around the Sparrow missile for air to air. Which is no bad thing as its version of the Sparrow (AIM-7F) was far better than the one used in the VietNam Air War. The RAAF TFG on the other hand had very bad experience with SARH AAMs thanks to the Mirage III and their crappy French missile. They did (and until not so long ago) focused very much on dogfighting as the way to achieve air superiority. The Hornet has some advantages over the Eagle in this regard in particular its high angle of attack capability. It would have and did feel far more at home as a Mirage replacement. Whereas the F-15A was designed to do what the F-4 Phantom never achieved and that was shoot down bad guys before the merge (and they did so in ODS extremely well).

Anyway that’s 15 minutes of my life typing this out for you all. In short:

F-15A good at air to ground
F/A-18 better weapons
F/A-18 cheaper and longer at technology cutting edge
F/A-18 better fit to RAAF tactical fighter units.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I remember they also had an article suggesting the F/A-18D as a suitable F-111 replacement.
Well it depends on the date stamp. What the Marines wanted for the F/A-18D was very different to what they got. Before 1984 the A-18(AW) was a two seat Hornet with a new and bigger wing and 15% more engine power. With reduced drag, better engine performance and 3,000 more lbs of internal fuel (plus two big 460 gallon drop tanks) this aircraft would have had a strike radius of around 800 NM. It also had automatic terrain following, offset bombing and the aft cockpit with the systems operator controls. Plus been able to fight air to air like any other Hornet. So a F/A-18F for the 1980s. But the Marines didn’t get the money and had to make do with the plain airframe F/A-18D(AW).
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
There was a push from some quarters in the early 1990s for the RAAF to acquire either the F/A-18D or the F-15E to replace the F-111C, but instead the F-111 went through the AUP program.

Had the F-111s been replaced then with arguably a better and more upgradeable capability, then we may not have done the classic Hornet HUG, nor bought Super Hornets...

But as I said, I don't like "what ifs". It is what it is.
 

MickB

Well-Known Member
This could be discussed for weeks and when it comes down to it someone could effectively argue that the F-5A would have been a better option than the Mirage and someone else could equally suggest the F-4C was the obvious choice with some very convincing arguements.
The only information about Mirage selection I could find says the it beat the F104. Where the F-5 and F-4 even considered. Either one was in hindsight a better choise. More compatability with closest allies, better weapon upgrades.
Did other Mirage operators suffer the same high rate of non combat losses as the RAAF.

Another obvious choise is the Hawker Hunter. It was equipped with the RR Avon like both the RAAF's Sabre and Canberra. This commonality was important enough that a trial version of the RAAF's Mirage was fitted with an Avon. It was deemed to expensive although providing superior performance.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The only information about Mirage selection I could find says the it beat the F104. Where the F-5 and F-4 even considered. Either one was in hindsight a better choise. More compatability with closest allies, better weapon upgrades.
The RAAF went through a few phases in its process to select a replacement for the Sabre between 1955-60. The Mirage III was selected in 1960 after a long process with its fair share of significant mistakes by the RAAF and Government.

In 1955 the RAAF assessed aircraft in the US and America and selected the F-104A to replace the Sabre. This went so far as an approved cabinet submission in 1957 for a squadrons worth along with a new medium bomber (Vulcans to replace the Canberra) and the first C-130s. The RAAF only got the C-130 as the Menzies Government was winding down defence at this time (because WWIII with Stalin hadn’t broken out in the mid 50s like they thought it was going to). The RAAF had also turned from the F-104A by this time because of its high sophistication and long takeoff requirement. Cabinet also decided at this time to maintain Australian fighter production (the F-104s were to be imports) and the RAAF got another 30 or so Sabres.

The CAS, Sherger, had wisely established in the late 50s that any new RAAF fighter needed to be able to operate from a runway of less than 3,000 feet (about a km). This was because hundreds of airfields of this length had been built during WWII around SE Asia and longer runways were very rare in our region. The Sabre and F-104 required longer runways. Also a shorter takeoff fighter was likely to have better handling and the RAAF assessed that the Sabre was too demanding for local air forces to operate. The idea of a local production Australian fighter at this time was to not just provide the RAAF with aircraft but in time of general war go into mass production and supply our allies in SEATO.

Anyway by 1959 the Cabinet was willing to order a new fighter and the RAAF went off on another world tour to find one. Before going overseas the RAAF assessed that the three most likely fighters would be the Northrop N156 (later the F-5), the Lockheed F-104G (much improved F-104A) and the Dassault mirage III. Also the English Electric Lightning and Martin F-105 would be looked at but were not considered likely. From this group the selection was narrowed down to the F-10G and the Mirage.

The Mirage was recommended over the F-104G because it could use shorter and softer runways, could fly higher and ferry further and was cheaper. The F-104 was also noted to have pitch up problems, gun gas engine problems, land faster and had a much worse safety record. So the RAAF dodged that bullet and the Mirage was selected.

Another obvious choise is the Hawker Hunter. It was equipped with the RR Avon like both the RAAF's Sabre and Canberra. This commonality was important enough that a trial version of the RAAF's Mirage was fitted with an Avon. It was deemed to expensive although providing superior performance.
The Hunter was from the previous generation and was comparable to the Avon Sabre not the Mirage III. British aviation industry was strongly focused on the high end of combat aircraft for the supersonic generation with the TSR.2, Lightning and Fairey Delta interceptor (cancelled by the Sandays review). They were building the half rocket, half jet Sara SR.177 which would have made an excellent Sabre replacement for the RAAF but it too was cancelled by the Sandays review in 1957.

The Mirage IIIO was first built with the advanced version of the Avon and it was a much better fighter than the Atar 9C powered Mirage III. But Snecma the builders of the Atar underbid their engine to the RAAF and it was selected because it was much cheaper. There is a persistent story supported by other cost records that Snecma made a significant mistake in their cost estimate for the Atar because they did not realise that the Australian Pound had been devalued decades ago in relation to the Pound Sterling. So the RAAF got a cheaper engine and Snecma lost money but since Dassault was thinking that ALL export Mirage IIIs should be built with the Avon maybe Snecma made the ‘mistake’ on purpose.

Did other Mirage operators suffer the same high rate of non combat losses as the RAAF.
Yes. Well those air forces that flew the Mirage as hard as the RAAF did suffered similar peacetime attrition. But the attrition problems with the Mirage were not extreme for the times. The aircraft lost via technical failures were because of engine surging and landing gear failure. Both are the sort of things that could be engineered out so that’s why people are still upset about it. But the F-104G would have been far worse as was seen in its operation with NATO.

Interestingly the Australian built Mirage III was nearly exported twice. To Israel and New Zealand. The Government in 1968 turned down the Israeli request and the Kiwis chose the much cheaper Skyhawk.

As to the hindsight question about the Mirage III it was clearly better for the RAAF than the aircraft it was up against. Weapons compatibility was a non-issue at the time and anyway they used Sidewinders and Mk 80 bombs as their main weapons which were all US standard. However the Mirage III failed to meet Sherger’s runway requirement and was unable to operate from the mass of local airfields. Because they were not used in a general war this wasn’t a major handicap but it would have been if they were really needed.

However there is one plane that was better than the Mirage III and the F-104G and could takeoff and land from short runways. As far as I know it was never assessed by the RAAF. There are 461 pages in the National Archive file on the Sabre Replacement and I haven’t read every one of them yet (you can read them online at their webpage just search for “MP1406/46”). But the Grumman Super Tiger would have been an ideal Sabre replacement for the RAAF. Better at everything than the Mirage III (no engine surge and gear problems) and able to fly from the runways needed. But for some reason, perhaps because it was a Navy plane, it was never looked at. Such is life.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
The RAAF went through a few phases in its process to select a replacement for the Sabre between 1955-60. The Mirage III was selected in 1960 after a long process with its fair share of significant mistakes by the RAAF and Government.

In 1955 the RAAF assessed aircraft in the US and America and selected the F-104A to replace the Sabre. This went so far as an approved cabinet submission in 1957 for a squadrons worth along with a new medium bomber (Vulcans to replace the Canberra) and the first C-130s. The RAAF only got the C-130 as the Menzies Government was winding down defence at this time (because WWIII with Stalin hadn’t broken out in the mid 50s like they thought it was going to). The RAAF had also turned from the F-104A by this time because of its high sophistication and long takeoff requirement. Cabinet also decided at this time to maintain Australian fighter production (the F-104s were to be imports) and the RAAF got another 30 or so Sabres.

The CAS, Sherger, had wisely established in the late 50s that any new RAAF fighter needed to be able to operate from a runway of less than 3,000 feet (about a km). This was because hundreds of airfields of this length had been built during WWII around SE Asia and longer runways were very rare in our region. The Sabre and F-104 required longer runways. Also a shorter takeoff fighter was likely to have better handling and the RAAF assessed that the Sabre was too demanding for local air forces to operate. The idea of a local production Australian fighter at this time was to not just provide the RAAF with aircraft but in time of general war go into mass production and supply our allies in SEATO.

Anyway by 1959 the Cabinet was willing to order a new fighter and the RAAF went off on another world tour to find one. Before going overseas the RAAF assessed that the three most likely fighters would be the Northrop N156 (later the F-5), the Lockheed F-104G (much improved F-104A) and the Dassault mirage III. Also the English Electric Lightning and Martin F-105 would be looked at but were not considered likely. From this group the selection was narrowed down to the F-10G and the Mirage.

The Mirage was recommended over the F-104G because it could use shorter and softer runways, could fly higher and ferry further and was cheaper. The F-104 was also noted to have pitch up problems, gun gas engine problems, land faster and had a much worse safety record. So the RAAF dodged that bullet and the Mirage was selected.



The Hunter was from the previous generation and was comparable to the Avon Sabre not the Mirage III. British aviation industry was strongly focused on the high end of combat aircraft for the supersonic generation with the TSR.2, Lightning and Fairey Delta interceptor (cancelled by the Sandays review). They were building the half rocket, half jet Sara SR.177 which would have made an excellent Sabre replacement for the RAAF but it too was cancelled by the Sandays review in 1957.

The Mirage IIIO was first built with the advanced version of the Avon and it was a much better fighter than the Atar 9C powered Mirage III. But Snecma the builders of the Atar underbid their engine to the RAAF and it was selected because it was much cheaper. There is a persistent story supported by other cost records that Snecma made a significant mistake in their cost estimate for the Atar because they did not realise that the Australian Pound had been devalued decades ago in relation to the Pound Sterling. So the RAAF got a cheaper engine and Snecma lost money but since Dassault was thinking that ALL export Mirage IIIs should be built with the Avon maybe Snecma made the ‘mistake’ on purpose.



Yes. Well those air forces that flew the Mirage as hard as the RAAF did suffered similar peacetime attrition. But the attrition problems with the Mirage were not extreme for the times. The aircraft lost via technical failures were because of engine surging and landing gear failure. Both are the sort of things that could be engineered out so that’s why people are still upset about it. But the F-104G would have been far worse as was seen in its operation with NATO.

Interestingly the Australian built Mirage III was nearly exported twice. To Israel and New Zealand. The Government in 1968 turned down the Israeli request and the Kiwis chose the much cheaper Skyhawk.

As to the hindsight question about the Mirage III it was clearly better for the RAAF than the aircraft it was up against. Weapons compatibility was a non-issue at the time and anyway they used Sidewinders and Mk 80 bombs as their main weapons which were all US standard. However the Mirage III failed to meet Sherger’s runway requirement and was unable to operate from the mass of local airfields. Because they were not used in a general war this wasn’t a major handicap but it would have been if they were really needed.

However there is one plane that was better than the Mirage III and the F-104G and could takeoff and land from short runways. As far as I know it was never assessed by the RAAF. There are 461 pages in the National Archive file on the Sabre Replacement and I haven’t read every one of them yet (you can read them online at their webpage just search for “MP1406/46”). But the Grumman Super Tiger would have been an ideal Sabre replacement for the RAAF. Better at everything than the Mirage III (no engine surge and gear problems) and able to fly from the runways needed. But for some reason, perhaps because it was a Navy plane, it was never looked at. Such is life.
Very interesting times for sure for the RAAF in those days. I do recall the RAAF operating F-4's at some point as an interim measure - perhaps because of the F-111 delays.
I also have this nagging thought that B-47(s) may have been another temporary acquisition (maybe not, just my failing grey cells suggesting so)
As for the Super Tiger, I don't think it was ordered by anyone despite its excellence, so Australia would have been a sole operator.
MB
 
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