Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Joe Black

Active Member
Hasn't it been an exciting few hours on the RAN thread, I left for work 7 hrs ago and 2 pages of posts later... but really, there seems to be a lot of misconceptions and misinformation floating around here probably not helped by the shite in the Diplomat article which I read this am.
IMHO the crux is this;
Government has to make a decision on whether or not to extend the lives of Collins. There is a fair body of opinion that says we should cut and run on Collins as the fundamental orphan problems will continue and they will continue to suck sustainment funds at an accelerating rate.

Some form of Japanese option is currently at the fore at a price ex Japan of $500m each (12 subs for $6b sounds a whole lot better than $40b) but I really can't see this government abandoning building them in Adelaide. After the plethora of industrial shutdowns the political pain will be too great and as the mining industry matures the drain on skilled workers is reversing.

However, ownership and industrial practices at ASC must change and that won't happen under a EU (or AUS) led consortium by HDW or BAE or Kockums and that leaves Japan who can begin in a relatively short time and nullify the expense and time in upgrading Collins. No other option can do that.
There's a lot of sovereign premium to be used up between $6b and $40b
Seriously I don't believe the $500m figure, maybe closer to $1bil a boat after all the bells and whistles and all the mods (eg. lock out chamber for special forces, etc) and the ability to fire long range cruise missiles like the LRASM, plus a Virginia class derived combat system.

In any case, the "savings" could be used for a 4th AWD or a 3rd LHD.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Was wondering if anyone had a link to this Committee on Hansard. I've had a look but can't find it.
Cheers
The govt. does not have the numbers in the Senate and during a debate on the subject a week or so ago this was mooted by Stephen Conroy and and his henchmen. It will end up with both a majority (Labor) report and a minority report but will go nowhere.
Not one hull built over the term of the previous govt. says it all but they did buy Choules and Skandi Bergen from overseas and they double-hulled Success in Singapore.
Spare me!
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
a small tidbit

the most successful clean sub build ever (Virginias) were based around Japanese design, construction and management principles.

the USN dev team went to Japan before they started digital design
I was not aware of that fact - and the Virginias have been a galloping success.



Hrmm..
 
I was not aware of that fact - and the Virginias have been a galloping success.

Hrmm..
2/3 of those principles were adopted for the US automotive industry in mid late 1950's

Evolved Soryu seems like a great fit, especially if the balance in numbers, budget and work allocation is found
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
From bit and pieces from web and media, so just wonder, would you mind if you can tell me which part do I get it wrong or get it right?? :)
some of the statements about specific sub designs are marketing brochures and have no bearing on the debate as they ignore the fundamental reality that conops for each country drive the requirement.

and again, the focus on size, range etc is the same mistake that all the broadsheet media have made about sub requirements vis a vis size and displacement.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
2/3 of those principles were adopted for the US automotive industry in mid late 1950's

Evolved Soryu seems like a great fit, especially if the balance in numbers, budget and work allocation is found
true - but the Virginias are unique in the fact that they were the first (and only) completely digitised design

I attended a sub warfare conference in Hawai'i where the Prog Flag Officer spoke about them spending time with Lexus to discuss how to integrate admin and engineering staff and how to get them to both play nice in the sandpit together.

The session was led by Dr Sirmalis - he's the sub services/UDT equiv of a combination of Adm Towers for aircraft carriers and Adm Rickover for nukes. For me, meeting Dr Sirmalis is about the equiv of a science geek meeting Stephen Hawking :)
 
true - but the Virginias are unique in the fact that they were the first (and only) completely digitised design

I attended a sub warfare conference in Hawai'i where the Prog Flag Officer spoke about them spending time with Lexus to discuss how to integrate admin and engineering staff and how to get them to both play nice in the sandpit together.

The session was led by Dr Sirmalis - he's the sub services equiv of a combination of Adm Towers for aircraft carriers and Adm Rickover for nukes. For me, meeting Dr Sirmalis is about the equiv of a science geek meeting Stephen Hawking :)
Very interesting. Do you know if Dr Sirmalis is an author in this space?

When you refer to the Virginias as being the first and 'only'. I can understand the first part, but why is sub development not using a digital design process or is this a cost issue that cannot be afforded & justified in this current era?

I finished my BB in LSS for prgm mgmt (I'm not defence related) quite a few years back and was amazed at some of the evolved concepts in Japanese manufacturing, engineering and management and how long over time this evolution has matured.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
On the other hand if all are built here by ASC, then no doubt industry and the workers would be the winners, but I suppose there is the potential for delays and cost overruns which could potentially affect the RAN, at least in the early years.
Actually once Australia commits to a decent size, or ongoing build and have had the benefit of the first couple of hulls to get up to speed, Australian yards have proven more than capable of delivering on time and budget. An issue in the past is Australian governments have expected (dictated) unrealistic schedules and budgets for green fields or virtually mothballed existing yards, they have managed projects in ways that no competent private company ever would and then blamed industry / unions / the workers / their predecessors for failings that in reality were nothing more than unrealistic expectations and poor forecasting.

Look for example at the Super Hornet acquisition for an idea of how it should be run, when announced it was costed at $10 billion for ten years, more than the cost of the AWD and no one blinked, no one was shocked or surprised, they just accepted this very realistic costing (provided by the US) and got on with life. Now had this been done with the Collins or AWD program, that is reasonable and honest costing with a reasonable and honest schedule, with allowances built in for the unknowns and teething problems that can reasonably be expected in such a project things would be very different today. Had they been costed and scheduled taking risk into account and making reasonable allowances for such, both projects would have come in ahead of schedule and under budget.

Another example is the ANZAC project, it was scheduled and costed based on the experience with the FFG build but came in ahead of schedule and under budget as many problems and issues planned for did not occur. It was an established design from a designer with extensive experience supporting local builds for their customers, built in a modernised yard with an experienced work force that had just come off another warship build. The Collins and AWD on the other hand were both from designers that had never exported a design or even worked with another nation on a project, they were both green fields sites and both relied on new inexperienced work forces that had to be trained as they built the first hulls. Both projects were judged in their early performance on the first hulls built, found wanting and crucified by government. They were hit with review after review, reorganisations, redundancies, forced resignations of senior personnel and yet still managed to improve as the level of experience increased and the issues with the designs and designers were sorted out. In spite of this their reputations were shot and they suffered continual attacks from the media and new government who were determined not to deviate from their chosen narrative no matter the evidence to the contrary because it was just too easy a target and to stop may have led the public to question why the original costings and schedules were wrong.

Had AWD been scheduled on the basis it would take two years to get the yard up to speed while everyone including the designer and contractors learnt on the job on ship one and the first ship had been costed to include multiple pilot builds recommended by ASC's industry partner Bath Iron Works at the start of the project, say an additional $500 million for the longer schedule, training requirement and pilot builds, then the project would today be ahead of schedule and below cost. This is not hind sight as I was at meetings in 2009 where experienced senior managers were saying just that the schedule was too tight and did not factor in the need for pilot builds and skilling a new workforce. With pilot builds the errors BAE made in the keel blocks would have been made on the pilot blocks instead, issues would have been identified and fixed before work on ship 1 began.

In the future we need to be smarter and one way to do this is to let experienced and competent people have more say in costings and schedule rather than having things tricked up by politicians and their advisers who are usually lawyers, economists etc. rather than engineers, accountants, project managers.

Look at the mining construction boom, billions invested without government interference projects scheduled and costed in the real world for the real world. Changes made to the projects and their scheduling in the light of the effect of external factors, no blame no carry on, just rescheduled and recosted to account for changing circumstances and get on with the job. None of this situation we get in defence where the Government, usually just PM&C make a decision, often ignoring professional advice, pluck some figures and timings out of the air, in the full knowledge by the time it goes wrong someone else will be accountable, and push start.

Looking at the Royal Commission into the governments management of the insulation program and how it has actually held parliamentarians and senior public servants to account, I wonder if we also need one into the governments management of naval shipbuilding in Australia from 1995 onwards. It would review ANZAC, Collins, AWD, LHD, ACPB, leased and purchased ships, their perfomnce in service and overall cost effectiveness of the selected designs as opposed to upfront costs. It would also look at the alternatives that were cancelled or not selected and seek professional guidance on how the alternatives would have performed had they been procured instead of what was actually selected, i.e. steel or GRP hulled PBs instead of aluminium, perhaps the Tenix corvettes instead of patrol boats etc, replacement tankers built locally instead of double hulling Success and buying Sirius, ships ordered in time to replace older vessels rather than panicked, often unsuccessful life extensions and leases when it is left too late.

Not going to happen but it would be very interesting, Keating held to account for diverting from the carefully planned and funded rejuvenation of the RAN, Howard for the first black hole, failed and unnecessary or poorly executed upgrade programs costing billions (more than just building suitable new ships as had been planned) and ordering the wrong ships and setting unrealistic schedules and costing once orders were placed again. Rudd / Gillard / Rudd for not ordering a single new ship in six years even while there were existing programs just crying out for options to be taken up and changed operational needs screaming for more capable platforms (patrol boats anyone) and now Abbott for not even looking at local construction options for new tankers that would actually be much easier and cheaper to construct locally than submarines or frigates.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
true - but the Virginias are unique in the fact that they were the first (and only) completely digitised design

I attended a sub warfare conference in Hawai'i where the Prog Flag Officer spoke about them spending time with Lexus to discuss how to integrate admin and engineering staff and how to get them to both play nice in the sandpit together.

The session was led by Dr Sirmalis - he's the sub services/UDT equiv of a combination of Adm Towers for aircraft carriers and Adm Rickover for nukes. For me, meeting Dr Sirmalis is about the equiv of a science geek meeting Stephen Hawking :)
Too true, it is definitely the way to go. When I was on the Collins project a 3D model was being developed of the design retrospectively to improve design and maintenance capability. I moved to the AWD project and was shocked to see it was totally reliant on 2D drawings in PDF format.

Working automotive in the mid 90s I was working on tooling and components designed in 3D in Unigraphics. I also worked with AutoCAD, Cadsman, Catia, Inventor and Solidworks on various projects and contracts over the years, I was horrified at how far behind defence is in comparison. Too many decision makers with no technical knowledge I am afraid, too many paper shufflers who think the answer is to out source everything, put their blinkers on and hope for the best.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I came across this today:
Government plans to export BrahMos missiles, Tejas, air defence system to Vietnam, Indonesia and Venezuela - Economic Times
It mentions that Indonesia might be interested in buying the BrahMos from India.
Is this possibly to counter a certain country who is starting to throwing its weight around in the SCS in the future maybe?

How would the RAN feel about this? Would it raise some eyebrows? or would the RAN not really care?

Brahmos has been an option and continuing discussion for years.

we're not the ones who would be concerned
 

Joe Black

Active Member
I came across this today:
Government plans to export BrahMos missiles, Tejas, air defence system to Vietnam, Indonesia and Venezuela - Economic Times
It mentions that Indonesia might be interested in buying the BrahMos from India.
Is this possibly to counter a certain country who is starting to throwing its weight around in the SCS in the future maybe?

How would the RAN feel about this? Would it raise some eyebrows? or would the RAN not really care?
The solution is a combination of ESSM, CEAFAR and CEAMOUNT.... ;)

Man, I'm so glad we have a home-grown solution for that.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
All I have to say is the new white paper will be interesting and this story seems to fit the WA lobby version of reality, subs bought overseas and maintained in the west. I am not saying it is going to happen but rather there are vocal parties that have been pushing for something like this for quite some time and considering they see the, soon to be upgraded and expanded, RAAF VIP fleet as their personal airline and there is a real need to combat increasing un-employment as the mining investment boom starts to ramp down so they can keep their jobs (get re-elected) by having some good news for all those soon to be unemployed Western Australians. Sad really as during my time with ASC people, including me, were being seconded to WA to help out and fix things as they consistently failed to perform and were the cause of the majority of maintenance issues that ASC could be blamed for, i.e. main generator crank on Collins several years ago etc.

Quite ironic as all the recent reviews seem to indicate that the submarine side of the business (apart from WA) was sorted and its the shipbuilding that had yet to prove itself. Then again BAE are the ones that really screwed the pooch on AWD yet they are being built up and pushed as potential saviours.

It all goes to show the secret of success in Australia is to undermine your opposition and distract attention from your own failings, no matter how bad. Don't worry about doing the job you are paid to do just make sure you are better at getting your version of the story across than the team that is actually trying to get the job done. A bit like air forces traditionally being better at staff work, the other services send their best and brightest off to fight while the air force promotes theirs into desk jobs where they can more effectively lobby and win political favour. In this case though its poorly performing companies and regions supported by their political representatives to the detriment of those sectors, companies and regions who are working their backsides off and being caned for it.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
$20 billion ... I wonder how much of that will stay in Australia. I would hope that there will be a lot of offset work being offered.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
With the current mob I doubt there would be any offsets at all, they just don't think like that, its all about the short term budget bottom line, no big picture, no vision, just saving money up front no matter what the cost down the line.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The current discussion can probably be served in summary by the following paper.
It briefly compares the current positions on naval shipbuilding between the various politcal parties.
I offer no commentary but offer it as a clarifier against the various claims and counterclaims about our dear leaders. Its helpful.
http://apo.org.au/files/Resource/parliamentarylibrary_australiannavalshipbuildingsincethe2013electionaquickguide_aug_2014.pdf
Interesting read, thanks for that Chris.

I note that in the News.com article it mentioned local construction of the new submarines being estimated to cost 30% more than overseas construction. I thought 30% was the magic figure at which the economy as a whole was still ahead due to the flow on effects of investment in the local economy. You would think with Holdens Ford and Toyota closing locally the government would be looking to invest a little extra in shipbuilding in SA and VIC rather than less. The mind boggles at the money wasted setting up facilities and then letting them wither again and again.

Why can't we either buy everything OS or sustain the industry we have, to continually switch from one to the other decade to decade is the worst of both worlds in terms of cost and return on investment.

I was interested in the comparison between the Collins and the Soryu show the older Australian Submarine to have twice the range at 30-40% higher speed (don't know if News figures can be trusted but Collins does have very long legs) and the statement that a support base can be set up in Darwin to help operate shorter range subs. Considering labour shortages and costs in Darwin I wonder if this has been costed at all? Not saying I wouldn't mind it happening just I know how much I would need to do my old job up here compared to down south and it wouldn't be cheap.

I was always in favour of an OTS purchase of Virginias but if we aren't going nuc I just can not see the benefit of not building locally, especially when we are talking major operational limitations (range) in the design being discussed. If you need a seven seater people mover or SUV with an open road range of 1000km+ and a 2000kg+ towing capacity, you don't buy a four seater hybrid with a range of 500km and no tow bar then also buy a tray top ute (hire a driver) with tow bar loaded with jerry cans to follow you every where you go..
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
Looking at Peter Briggs writing for ASPI, I thought his description of the fleet size required to maintain a large enough pool of qualified submariners very interesting:

The second observation is that a force of six submarines, ie typically with three or four available or at sea (under the rule of three) will struggle to achieve sufficient sea days to generate enough of the highly skilled/long training time personnel such as commanding officers, engineers and senior technicians to man the four to five crews and provide the essential shore supervisory staff in the Submarine Squadron and policy areas. In support of this contention I’d cite the perennial shortages in these categories across the Oberon and now the Collins submarine force for the 40+ years I’ve been working in or observing it.

My modelling of these training pipelines demonstrates that a force of at least nine submarines, ie typically six at sea is the minimum to achieve a sustainable critical mass of specialist/experienced personnel. The RAN has survived hitherto by lateral recruiting qualified personnel from other navies—not a reliable basis for manning a core capability.


Source: http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/how-many-submarines-part-1/

The last comment on lateral recruiting to sustain a large enough pool of qualified submariners is surprising.

I would be very interested in fellow posters response to this?

Regards,

Massive
 
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