Marine Nationale (French Navy)

[RobWilliams]

Well, that's that straightened out then. It just seemed a bit weird when the Minister of Defence was arguing that 11 were still being built despite "rumours" from the White paper, when the number being built wasn't what people were talking about, it was about how many France were getting.

But anyway, that means the future frontline frigate force will be 8 FREMM, 2 x Horizon + 5 x La Fayette. Presumably then the 8 FREMMs will be split into 6 ASW + 2 FREDA?

 

[Spacearrow99]

Well, that's that straightened out then. It just seemed a bit weird when the Minister of Defence was arguing that 11 were still being built despite "rumours" from the White paper, when the number being built wasn't what people were talking about, it was about how many France were getting.

But anyway, that means the future frontline frigate force will be 8 FREMM, 2 x Horizon + 5 x La Fayette. Presumably then the 8 FREMMs will be split into 6 ASW + 2 FREDA?

The Greece is broke, and Sarkozy offered the Greeks a great deal one which they did not sign. The Moroccan FREMM is a washed down version of the French FREMM; due to Morocco's budgetary constraints, so potential FREMM deals with those two countries are looking shaky at this point. I agree with Mer et Marine's analysis many scenarios are still on the table for the MN. The Lafayette class will be decommissioned from 2026-2031; cutting the FREMM by 3 units is just stupid.

 

[RobWilliams]

MdCN has conducted it's first qualification firing on July 1st from a shore base representing a frigate.

Missile systems, defence systems - MBDA missiles

On 1st July 2013, the French DGA (Direction Générale de l'Armement) successfully carried out the first qualification firing of the naval cruise missile (MdCN or Missile de Croisière Naval). The firing, which took place at the DGA’s Biscarrosse missile test centre (situated in the department of Landes in South West France) , was representative of a firing from a frigate.

The firing scenario was especially demanding as, in addition to meeting range objectives, it also served to validate the missile’s performance with regard to its autonomous terminal navigation using infrared target recognition.

This success is the result of intensive coordinated efforts involving many state participants (the DGA’s centres of expertise and testing, the DGA’s quality control department and the French Navy) and industry (MBDA France).

This missile is going to be quite important to the French Navy, giving them land attack capability from their surface ships - which is important given the nature of the long Charles De Gaulle - and equally if not more importantly it gives them a cruise missile capability for their submarine fleet when the 6 Barracudas come into service in 2017 which doesn't exist with their current fleet of 6 Rubis class SSNs. They're currently capable of carrying torpedos, mines & Exocets in a mixture of up to 14 weapons. With the Barracudas this increases too ~20 weapons.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Fremm

Mer et Marine and other French sources are reporting that at least 8 FREMM/FREDA will be built. The 7th and 8th units will be FREDA; instead of the 10th and 11th units. The decision on the last 3 FREMM will be made in 2016. A new frigate program FTI is being pushed by the French Ministry of Defence. If the last 3 FREMM get cancelled the FTI program will have to replace the La Fayettes and Floreals.

FREMM : Programme étalé et réorganisé | Mer et Marine

Les futures FTI remplaceront les La Fayette et peut être les Floréal | Mer et Marine

The MN was very pleased with performance of the La driot during its first deployment.

Retour sur le premier grand déploiement de L

 

[Alienware]

The Military Planning Law has been released, what news for the FREMM? 8 or 11?

 

[RobWilliams]

Read Spacearrow99's post directly above yours, it includes the exact information you require.

Please make more of an effort to read the thread mate, I get that you're new, but this news is pretty recent so it wouldn't have hurt to check the last page or so to see if it's been mentioned. Also, considering you're new, have a read through the rules just to get you in the know about the ins and outs of here

www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php

EDIT: Also Spacearrow, i'm quite interested to get your take on this. What is the probability of these last 3 FREMMs being ordered? Then also would making the last pair of units be FREDA's be your preferred choice?

So in future, the French escort fleet might consist of

• 6 FREMM (+3)
• 2 FREDA
• 2 Horizon
• 5 La Fayette(?)

It fits the '15 front line frigates' idea from the Livre Blanc, I suppose it comes down to is it more likely the 3 FREMMs be ordered and 3 La Fayettes be dropped, or not buy the FREMMs?

I hope they do, they are very capable escorts.

 

[Spacearrow99]

EDIT: Also Spacearrow, i'm quite interested to get your take on this. What is the probability of these last 3 FREMMs being ordered? Then also would making the last pair of units be FREDA's be your preferred choice?

So in future, the French escort fleet might consist of

• 6 FREMM (+3)
• 2 FREDA
• 2 Horizon
• 5 La Fayette(?)

It fits the '15 front line frigates' idea from the Livre Blanc, I suppose it comes down to is it more likely the 3 FREMMs be ordered and 3 La Fayettes be dropped, or not buy the FREMMs?

I hope they do, they are very capable escorts.

At this point, nobody knows if the last three FREMM will be ordered. The simplest solution to get to '15 front line frigates' idea from the Livre Blanc, is to increase the order of FREMM/FREDA to 13. Then the FTI program can replace just the Floreal class. I would like 4 FREDA instead of the two that is currently planned.

The configuration of the FREDA still has not been decided. At first FREDA, was going to have a more powerful Herakles radar. Then DCNS came up with its FREMM-ER concept with Sea Fire 500. My guess is that the Hollande government will use the FREMM-ER as the basis for FREDA. Hollande has been pushing the FREMM for export in Canada and Brazil. A FREDA with Sea Fire 500 gives DCNS a decent chance of winning one of those tenders.

 

[Alienware]

At this point, nobody knows if the last three FREMM will be ordered. The simplest solution to get to '15 front line frigates' idea from the Livre Blanc, is to increase the order of FREMM/FREDA to 13. Then the FTI program can replace just the Floreal class. I would like 4 FREDA instead of the two that is currently planned.

The configuration of the FREDA still has not been decided. At first FREDA, was going to have a more powerful Herakles radar. Then DCNS came up with its FREMM-ER concept with Sea Fire 500. My guess is that the Hollande government will use the FREMM-ER as the basis for FREDA. Hollande has been pushing the FREMM for export in Canada and Brazil. A FREDA with Sea Fire 500 gives DCNS a decent chance of winning one of those tenders.

As you and I know, the White Paper set a target of 15 front-line frigates (including less powerful combatants such as the La Fayette-class). However the recent Military Planning Law has been inconsistent with its figures and is very confusing. Let me explain:

On page 29 of the 'Projet De Loi De Programmation Militarie 2014/2019' it says that by the end of 2019, 6 ASW FREMM will have been delivered and that a following two units (FREMM No. 7 and 8) will have enhanced air-defence capabilities (or FREDA).

It also mentions that the ultimate decision on the last 3 FREMM will be made in 2016.

But...

On page 40, under 'Les Forces Navales En 2020' it says that the navy will consist of the following front-line frigates by 2020:

5 x ASW FREMM
2 x Horizon-class
2 x Cassard-class
2 x Georges Leygues-class

This is only 11 front-line frigates as opposed to the 15 mentioned in the White Paper. Are the La Fayette-class no-longer considered front-line frigates anymore? Also, why does the LMP switch between saying 6 FREMM by 2019 and then only 5 FREMM by 2020?!

Very confusing, it's as if the French Government is purposely trying to mask cuts via the subterfuge of confusion!

EDIT: Also Spacearrow99, original DCNS delivery schedules for the FREMM were 8 by 2019. Yet the LMP now says a max of 6 by 2019 with two FREDA delivered post 2019.

So my question is, has the French Government decided to slow down construction for the FREMM project as it did also with the Rafale in the LMP?

 

[Spacearrow99]

As you and I know, the White Paper set a target of 15 front-line frigates (including less powerful combatants such as the La Fayette-class). However the recent Military Planning Law has been inconsistent with its figures and is very confusing. Let me explain:

On page 29 of the 'Projet De Loi De Programmation Militarie 2014/2019' it says that by the end of 2019, 6 ASW FREMM will have been delivered and that a following two units (FREMM No. 7 and 8) will have enhanced air-defence capabilities (or FREDA).

It also mentions that the ultimate decision on the last 3 FREMM will be made in 2016.

But...

On page 40, under 'Les Forces Navales En 2020' it says that the navy will consist of the following front-line frigates by 2020:

5 x ASW FREMM
2 x Horizon-class
2 x Cassard-class
2 x Georges Leygues-class

This is only 11 front-line frigates as opposed to the 15 mentioned in the White Paper. Are the La Fayette-class no-longer considered front-line frigates anymore? Also, why does the LMP switch between saying 6 FREMM by 2019 and then only 5 FREMM by 2020?!

Very confusing, it's as if the French Government is purposely trying to mask cuts via the subterfuge of confusion!

EDIT: Also Spacearrow99, original DCNS delivery schedules for the FREMM were 8 by 2019. Yet the LMP now says a max of 6 by 2019 with two FREDA delivered post 2019.

So my question is, has the French Government decided to slow down construction for the FREMM project as it did also with the Rafale in the LMP?

I think the sixth FREMM will have been delivered, but will not be commissioned in 2020. The Hollande government's plan is deliver a FREMM every 14 months. The French parliament has not approved the LPM yet, so things could change. I said, earlier that simplest solution to field 15 frontline frigates solution is to build 13 FREMM/FREDA. Then FTI class can be built using civilian standards like the Floreals.

 

[1805]

Does anyone know the towed array sonar arrangement for the current MN escort force, i.e. as with the RN's Type 23 with 6 ships equipped, planned to rise to 8 with the introduction of the Type 26?

 

[RobWilliams]

In the future force, all ASW FREMMs will have a TSA (Thales Type 4929), so depending on the decisions made in 2016 the French Navy will either have 6 or 9 frigates with TSA's. If the decision is not to buy the 3 in 2016 then the future ASW force will be equal to the current ASW force, in terms of numbers alone AFAIK.

EDIT: Apparently the last 3 ships of the George Leygues class are equipped with a TSA (DSVB-61) , the rest having a variable depth sonar & all having various HMS.

 

[1805]

Thanks, do you know if they are transferring the TAS over from earlier ship as the RN is doing. I wonder if there is the option to fit TAS to the FREDA if they only get 6 ASW FREMM or if that would be trying to much on the displacement.

 

[RobWilliams]

Doesn't sound like it, all apart from 3 George Leygues class are equipped with a variable depth sonar (DUBV-43) and those 3 have additionally a passive linear towed sonar array (DSBV-61B)* [1]. FREMM on the other hand is fitted with a Thales Type 4929 low frequency active towed sonar array [2]

[1] Georges Leygues class anti-submarine destroyer Type F70 ASM ASW Anti-submarine Frigates Frégates anti-sous-marines FASM D640 D641 D642 D643 D644 D645 D646 DUBV-43 DSBV-61 Marine Nationale French Navy DCNS datasheet pictures photos video specification
[2] http://www.thalesgroup.com/Portfolio/Documents/Captas-4/

Although, for example the setup on FREMM and the Type 23 with the CAPTAS-4 array system, the towed sonar array has a variable depth capability. So i'm not 100% why this distinction is made, i'm not great on sonars.

 

[RobWilliams]

Northrop Grumman to upgrade French E-2C Hawkeye AEW aircraft

Northrop Grumman wins French E-2C Hawkeye work - News - Shephard

Northrop Grumman has been issued a $34.5 million contract by the US Navy to upgrade the French Navy’s fleet of three E-2C Hawkeyes with an upgraded Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system. The new system will increase commonality and interoperability between the French fleet and the US Navy’s E-2D Advanced Hawkeye aircraft.

As well as updating the IFF system, AN/APX-122A IFF Mode 5/Mode S Interrogators and AN/APX-123 IFF Mode 5/Mode S Transponders will also be installed on the French fleet

Older news, but the 4th FREMM frigate for the French Navy was launched in Sept & has proceeded to fitting out.

FREMM frigate Provence ready for outfitting - News - Shephard

The vessel, called FREMM frigate Provence, will now be outfitted with systems including the masts and sensors, radars, antennas, cameras and jammers by DCNS specialists and subcontractor teams.

Five FREMM multimission frigates are currently in different stages of assembly, with a total of 11 on order for the French Navy. A 12th vessel is being built for the Royal Moroccan Navy.

The FREMM multimission frigates are designed to perform missions including anti-air warfare (AAW), anti-surface warfare (ASuW) and anti-submarine warfare (ASW). They will carry advanced weapons and systems including the Herakles multifunction radar, Aster anti-air missiles, Exocet MM40 anti-ship missiles and MU90 torpedoes.

Have to say, looking at the weapon systems on FREMM as is, it's pretty cool. Nice wide variety, little light on defensive missiles perhaps.

French MPA up for upgrading

http://www.naval-technology.com/news/newsdassault-thales-french-atl2-upgrade

The modernisation programme involves Dassault Aviation and Thales (co-contractors) as well as DCNS and Service Industriel de l'Aéronautique (SIAé).

Dassault will develop the core system such as the Logiciel Opérationnel de Traitement de l'Information (LOTI) mission software as well as being responsible for subsystems integration and the prototype aircraft conversion for flight testing.

Thales will be responsible for providing the radar / identification friend or foe (IFF) subsystem, which will use technology designed for the Rafale as well as latest-generation digital acoustic processing subsystem (STAN), which will allow the Atlantique 2 aircraft to counter new types of threats.

SIAé will upgrade tactical display consoles and manage full-rate aircraft upgrade operations while DCNS will develop the LOTI software and manage the installation of torpedoes, missiles and other weapons.

 

[RobWilliams]

A video came out recently showing the first 2 French FREMMs operating together, to be honest i'm mesmorised watching that MFR spinning around & even more so because it looks like something isn't central. Still, it'll do the job & is a very capable ship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=cGD6EwHBND8

 

[StobieWan]

That's a single face array I believe? Think it'll unscrew one day and fall off the top ?



Good looking ships however.

 

[RobWilliams]

I think so, in the advertisement material - although it doesn't specifically say it's a single array - it describes the smart management of the phased array antenna.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/Datasheet HERAKLES_DS167_10_12_HR.pdf

Still, if it can steer Asters onto the target then it's certainly good enough. It just looks bizarre when you see something that blocky spinning that fast.

 

[StobieWan]

Blimey, just looked, didn't realise it's a PESA ...gawsh..

Thought it'd be an AESA single face, like EMPAR?

 

[StevoJH]

A video came out recently showing the first 2 French FREMMs operating together, to be honest i'm mesmorised watching that MFR spinning around & even more so because it looks like something isn't central. Still, it'll do the job & is a very capable ship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=cGD6EwHBND8

Definitely not central. Would be an interesting talking point if the bearings wore out and the Radar went flying off into the distance one day.

 

[RobWilliams]

It's to do with the shape of the mast, the front face is at a lower gradient than the rear face, so because the radar casing fits the shape it looks really weird to watch.