New Zealand Army

[Bonza]

It matters because the wider government context is important, and because they can often be informative of the commercial terms offered and their acceptability or otherwise to the Crown. Dave had indicated that the Steyr manufacturer wouldn't play ball on small numbers in his earlier post.

I don't have Dave's breadth of experience on the range of weapons, but I've had experience with the Steyr and the M4 family. I've also had extensive experience as an instructional designer. The idea that all things can be resolved with training just isn't correct. Good training can only teach the trainee to make the most of the tool they have. It's never going to give the trainee silk from a pig's ear.

You could also look at what the Police have in common with some of the Defence community and see what capability overlap there is. Taking an objective look at roles and missions you'd find more in common than different for most users (recognizing that infantry are in the minority of users).

1. Bringing up the fact that Steyr wasn't interested in a limited buy is a bit of a smokescreen isn't it, considering the limited buy is off the table and thus doesn't represent the current issue at all?

2. I never said training solves all things, only the things you mentioned.

3. What does instructional design have to do with training people for proficiency with varying types of firearms?

4. Can you explain how you know then that it is harder to achieve proficiency with bullpup rifles relative to more conventional rifle designs?

5. Different post, but you bring up the police and the fact that with limited training time they can achieve proficiency with their Bushmasters - but is that a reflection of training standards or of the weapon itself? They're not mutually exclusive, and they do both factor into your point, but you appear to attribute it to the rifle, not the training or the level of proficiency required to be considered qualified on the weapon. It's not unreasonable to think the Army is probably going to train to a higher standard to be considered "qualified" with rifles relative to a civilian police force...

 

[Cadredave]

Tod, the Bushmaster is the rifle used by general duties Police - locked in each operational vehicle and generally used ahead of a pistol when firearms are needed. The point is that with the very limited training time available to police annual (measured in hours, not days), they can achieve proficiency for their roles (essentially self protection).

And how do you achieve proficiency on 25 rounds a year at 25 metres range?, explains the reason why Police shot an innocent bystander a couple of years ago in Auckland context is very important, your comparing oranges to apples the only commonality we have with Police is the calibre.

 

[Zero Alpha]

And how do you achieve proficiency on 25 rounds a year at 25 metres range?, explains the reason why Police shot an innocent bystander a couple of years ago in Auckland context is very important, your comparing oranges to apples the only commonality we have with Police is the calibre.

It explains nothing Dave - the motorway shooting in Auckland was by an AOS member - who had considerable more experience than 25 rounds/year. The post-event inquiry indicated training gaps based on the likely employment context of the AOS resource.

I'm happy to have a reasoned debate on the topic, people on this thread it looks to me like people are more interested in defending their preconceived ideas than having an objective discussion. It's quiet telling that there has been more criticism of alternatives to the Steyr than there has been acknowledging some of the issues with it.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I'm happy to have a reasoned debate on the topic, people on this thread it looks to me like people are more interested in defending their preconceived ideas than having an objective discussion. It's quiet telling that there has been more criticism of alternatives to the Steyr than there has been acknowledging some of the issues with it.

really? respond to my post - the analysis of weapons pre-procurement is significant - and the results are directly opposite to your claims - I'd be a bit more cautious in your claims considering some of us have been directly involved with weapons tests

eg I've tested longs and bullpups. there are people in here who have recognised proficiency with a broad range of weapons for their day jobs - and who have used them in current conflicts.

the indisputable reality is that the ADF tests showed that training time and proficiency for inexperienced shooters was to realise tighter more persistent groupings with bullpups over longs.

in fact there are classified mil science ballistic reports which detail why this occurs.

your claims are not supported by DSTO tests as well as the small arms and training tests that were done pre-decision..

the french have found the same with P90 and the UK with SA-80.

 

[StobieWan]

In the UK, we had to change the scores for a Marksmanship grade when the SA80 came in - it was just that much easier to dial in and get groups.

Obviously, that's going from a 7.62 FN FAL with iron sights to a 5.56 weapon with optical but by all accounts, the bull pup bit hasn't been an issue. Ergonomics can be awkward for a BP design (trying to get spent cases out in a direction where the shooter isn't impacted, controls etc, they're all a bit different than on a conventional layout, but groups are driven from the barrel length, sight relief, trigger action etc)

I may be talking through my hat but I believe the longer barrel length has more of a positive impact than any other negative factors.

 

[aussienscale]

In the UK, we had to change the scores for a Marksmanship grade when the SA80 came in - it was just that much easier to dial in and get groups.

Obviously, that's going from a 7.62 FN FAL with iron sights to a 5.56 weapon with optical but by all accounts, the bull pup bit hasn't been an issue. Ergonomics can be awkward for a BP design (trying to get spent cases out in a direction where the shooter isn't impacted, controls etc, they're all a bit different than on a conventional layout, but groups are driven from the barrel length, sight relief, trigger action etc)

I may be talking through my hat but I believe the longer barrel length has more of a positive impact than any other negative factors.

Ditto, I did Interservice Rifle Shooting when I was in the Navy and it was during the transition from the SLR to the Steyr, yes it did take a little to get used to the Steyr, Bullpup, trigger action, kickback was different with a bullpup too, but as we dialed in and got used to it over any given distance we were all getting tighter groupings.

sorry but people trying to compare what NZ should choose based on what a civilian police force uses is utter rubbish, seriously !! get over it an move on or keep reading fanboi gun mag comparisons and let us be FFS !! if you cant understand and take direction from people who do the bloody job go away instead of trying to make claims that some experience you have in course something or other qualifies you to make informed factual comment on the subject

Have a great day

 

[Bonza]

I'm happy to have a reasoned debate on the topic, people on this thread it looks to me like people are more interested in defending their preconceived ideas than having an objective discussion. It's quiet telling that there has been more criticism of alternatives to the Steyr than there has been acknowledging some of the issues with it.

Considering how selective you've been in your responses I really doubt that "reasoned debate" is what you're after.

I'm done with this.

 

[ngatimozart]

It explains nothing Dave - the motorway shooting in Auckland was by an AOS member - who had considerable more experience than 25 rounds/year. The post-event inquiry indicated training gaps based on the likely employment context of the AOS resource.

I'm happy to have a reasoned debate on the topic, people on this thread it looks to me like people are more interested in defending their preconceived ideas than having an objective discussion. It's quiet telling that there has been more criticism of alternatives to the Steyr than there has been acknowledging some of the issues with it.

Actually maybe it's about time you fronted up with your military and shooting credentials. You've made some claims and now it's time to back them up - oh and by the we do have ways of checking the accuracy of peoples credentials, especially when it comes to service numbers, times in service and ranks.

 

[Volkodav]

During my qualification shoot post conversion the sight reticle on my F-88C came loose and started spinning with each shot, ended up qualifying using the iron sights no problems. SLR or M-16 no way I could have done that with a sight problem.

 

[StobieWan]

Ditto, I did Interservice Rifle Shooting when I was in the Navy and it was during the transition from the SLR to the Steyr, yes it did take a little to get used to the Steyr, Bullpup, trigger action, kickback was different with a bullpup too, but as we dialed in and got used to it over any given distance we were all getting tighter groupings.

sorry but people trying to compare what NZ should choose based on what a civilian police force uses is utter rubbish, seriously !! get over it an move on or keep reading fanboi gun mag comparisons and let us be FFS !! if you cant understand and take direction from people who do the bloody job go away instead of trying to make claims that some experience you have in course something or other qualifies you to make informed factual comment on the subject

Have a great day

Triggers on most bullpups tend to have a bit (or a lot!) of creep on them due to where they physically sit in relationship to the action - heard the same comment on trigger action for the SA80.

Also, M4? WTF? It's been pilloried (at times rather unfairly) by various sources so I'm not seeing a deep seated drive to go buy one right now. There's other stuff if you're starting from a clean sheet.

Actually, the argument about replacing the Steyr with anything is the same as the argument over replacing the M4 - you can get stuff that's a bit better but enough to justify total retraining, new accessories, the lot? Expensive for a small increment.

 

[40 deg south]

There has been a distinctly British feel to a lot of recent acquisitions; Sea Ceptor, MAN trucks tagged onto a UK order, LMT rifle, Benelli shotgun etc.

Given that trend, is there any significance in this news.
Colt Canada L119A2 - The Firearm Blog

It seems the UK has a some Canadian-built AR rifles for special forces usage, and these have recently had a mid-life upgrade.

Would NZ consider these a possibility? I have no ability to comment on the merits of the weapon itself, I'm thinking purely from a politics/acquisition policy viewpoint.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Would NZ consider these a possibility? I have no ability to comment on the merits of the weapon itself, I'm thinking purely from a politics/acquisition policy viewpoint.

NZ has niche users - eg SF, so they could be involved anyway

 

[Cadredave]

There has been a distinctly British feel to a lot of recent acquisitions; Sea Ceptor, MAN trucks tagged onto a UK order, LMT rifle, Benelli shotgun etc.

Given that trend, is there any significance in this news.
Colt Canada L119A2 - The Firearm Blog

It seems the UK has a some Canadian-built AR rifles for special forces usage, and these have recently had a mid-life upgrade.

Would NZ consider these a possibility? I have no ability to comment on the merits of the weapon itself, I'm thinking purely from a politics/acquisition policy viewpoint.

Still no word on who or what is being trialled the latest Army news does shed a bit of light on what Army is looking at in regards to its future needs.


http://army.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/army-news/armynews453.pdf

CD

 

[htbrst]

An article and video on stuff about the NZDF "Battle lab" that shows testing of a RWS mounted on a Pinzgauer and the testing of a glorified quad-bike:

'Battle Lab' susses out new military gear | Stuff.co.nz

 

[gf0012-aust]

An article and video on stuff about the NZDF "Battle lab" that shows testing of a RWS mounted on a Pinzgauer and the testing of a glorified quad-bike:

'Battle Lab' susses out new military gear | Stuff.co.nz

"battle lab" means something completely different in Oz and UK....

the quad mod has been around for a while - there's also a 6 wheeler that's been "used on the job" already

 

[Cadredave]

"battle lab" means something completely different in Oz and UK....

the quad mod has been around for a while - there's also a 6 wheeler that's been "used on the job" already

That's correct GF its a trifecta between Cap Branch, DTA and Army to better define user requirements before they put a case forward to MoD no one wanted to call them trials unit so the best they came up with is Battle Lab that's my story & im sticking with it.

 

[40 deg south]

http://army.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/army-news/armynews453.pdf

Latest Army News has updates on the weapons upgrade/replacement programme.

Includes

On 17 Jun 14 the Government announced a project which
will see the Steyr rifle replaced by 2016/17. The Ministry
of Defence will now begin a tendering process which will
produce a shortlist of potential new rifles. The NZDF will trial
each of the rifles on the shortlist to ensure we purchase the
right one for our needs. As the IWRP progresses there will be
further updates in the Army News

Replacement Personal Protection Weapon (Pistol)
A trial for a possible replacement was conducted in April 14.
The project is currently in the business case development
stage. The chosen replacement is expected to be delivered
within the next 12 months.

 

[kiwi in exile]

An article and video on stuff about the NZDF "Battle lab" that shows testing of a RWS mounted on a Pinzgauer and the testing of a glorified quad-bike:

'Battle Lab' susses out new military gear | Stuff.co.nz

Soley in the interest of blowing my own trumpet, I'd just like to point out that I pointed out the RWS Pinz on a NZ army facebook page a few weeks ago. see post #739. :

Great to see the NZDF is trying out new toys.

Cheers

 

[RegR]

Good spotting Kiwi, yes I remember you pointing that out, you should consider Int corp with your recognition skills haha

 

[40 deg south]

Canadian troops use Steyr AUGs while New Zealand troops receive training on Canadian C7 rifles | Ottawa Citizen

We tend to think of RIMPAC as a naval exercise, but this US press release courtesy of a Canadian newspaper reminds me that there is also a ground forces element.

Interesting choice of weapon to train on, but probably coincidental. I wonder if the C7 (Canadian version of M16) is one of the possible Steyr replacements currently being assessed?