Regarding training, I had thought that studies had determined that personnel unfamiliar with firearms get up to speed firing bullpup rifle designs faster than 'conventional' designs where the trigger is located after the mag slot.
The Kiwis get to choose a new AR combat rifle, perhaps they should consider the following:
Thanks for such a detailed answer CD. The development of M855A1 sounds like a step in the right direction for those users of carbine rifles, but it seems people often forget that the old ammunition doesn't have the same issues when the weapon used has the features appropriate to the ammunition, meaning a rifle with a 20 inch barrel and the proper twist.
USMC speak highly of both the A4 and HK IAR for that very reason the length of the barrel and twist that does give them the ability to reach out and touch somebody at distance, yes they are both very long to manoeuvre around but with the appropriate training you do get over that limitation.
Don't know the answer to the second part of your question, I get the feeling that Steyr were not coming to the party in regards to price for the very small order that was meant to be placed about 18 months ago and we couldn't wait for the ADI/Thales F90 to tag an order onto.
Correct they have a separate budget in which they can purchase the necessary tools to stay in touch with the other specials around and commonality of Logistics is very important to them to seamlessly fit into SASR/22 or SOCOM. For the Conventional Army having a common weapon to Australia is a major we can and do fit seamlessly into your logistics hence I still see the F90 being at the top of the list for logistics reasons as well as lethality, range.
Sorry TOD didn't see your post, you are correct it is easier to train a novice on the Steyr than it is to retrain someone on an conventional design. Always found it a pleasure at recruit training school to instruct basic soldier's on the Steyr for all the reason you stated its just a compact weapon to teach someone how to operate properly, recoil is negligible etc.
No argument from me on that one Tod a lot of people in our Army see the specials looking Gucci and want to carry what they have without going to do the relevant selection course to get into the Unit. They forget that the Conventional Army has a very different role to specials and the Australian Army is the most likely force we will be attached to for Doctrinal, Training, and Logistics reasons.
What does it matter what the police chose to do? Their requirements are not the same as that of the army. Furthermore your other points are things that can all be rectified by training. Re-read CadreDave's posts - he's in the business and has actual trigger time on the weapons being discussed in addition to having experience training people in the use of various small arms. It might be useful to meditate on that when approaching the topic.
Probably worth noting that the in-service weapons replacement project hasn't had a
It matters because the wider government context is important, and because they can often be informative of the commercial terms offered and their acceptability or otherwise to the Crown. Dave had indicated that the Steyr manufacturer wouldn't play ball on small numbers in his earlier post.
Why would the infantry be classified as minority users? They might be purely based upon personnel numbers but their basic stock tool of trade is their rifle and they spend many hours with that weapon so that actually makes them the major client not a minority user. You are right you do not have Daves experience and considering that, he is far more qualified to comment. Secondly, you will find that other considerations such as logistics support and commonality with Australia will play an important part with this decision. This project is in I think it's third iteration. One thing I learned when I was in uniform (two different NZDF uniforms), was that given time and proper training, any service person can be turned into a good rifleman regardless of the weapon. You can have the most guccied weapon in the world and still be a piss poor rifleman, because you don't a proper technique. There is no logical correlation between what the NZ Police use and what the NZDF use as far as weapons are concerned. They are two completely different organisations with completely different missions and roles.
The wider gov't context is only important if and when relevant. In the case of kit for defence, especially weapons, how many other gov't departments have a need for weapons? Under what circumstances are those weapons need? Again, context is key.
Agreed, a sow's ear cannot be made into a silk purse. So the question becomes what criteria is more important to Defence and Army? Having an extra 5.5" barrel which increases accuracy at range as well as increases the munition effectiveness at range? Or having a rifle which can accomodate different body sizes*? The ambidexterity issue is a non-issue, since the Steyr AUG is also ambidextrous. Also the overall size of an M4 and Steyr AUG is about the same.
Again, what police personnel have/use rifles in NZ, and under what circumstances. I could be wrong, but I would imagine that M4's in police service would be in the hands of special tactical teams, to be used in CQB, forced entry, anti-terrorism, hostage rescue and similar types of roles/missions. If that is the case, then I suspect that there is not a high demand for such weapons (meaning effectively no economies of scale, esp. if a 2,000 rifle order was not sufficient...) and the planned/expected engagement range is well under 200 meters.
I wouldn't go that far yet Reg any thing could happen with DTA, price negotiations etc but during the last trial the A3 Aug did out shoot every other weapon system, SCAR, HK416, M4, Bushmaster
Being in the minority doesn't mean they aren't important. If you look at the approach taken for the LSW, the infantry ended up with a higher-spec piece of kit than the rest of the Army. This reflects a different set of user needs. Most users of the Steyr aren't riflemen; their needs a different and generally simpler. I'd be surprised if a one size fits all approach is taken.
