New Zealand Army

Goknub

Active Member
Out of curiosity, did the Kiwis ever upgrade their Steyrs to A2 with the Picatinny rail?

Most pics I can find have them still using the built-in scope.

I'm wondering if the EF-88 will be an option considering it's not quite "off the shelf" at the moment.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Out of curiosity, did the Kiwis ever upgrade their Steyrs to A2 with the Picatinny rail?

Most pics I can find have them still using the built-in scope.

I'm wondering if the EF-88 will be an option considering it's not quite "off the shelf" at the moment.
We had the SP Steyr however it was not general issue, not to sure about EF-88 but you can never rule it out.
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
New rifles to be introduced by 2016/17. Thats soon. :)

This topic has come up from time to time in articles in stuff/nz herald and has been discussed here on DT also. I'm sure there was a RFT in the past year or so. My understanding was that most of the stock of 13000 or so rifles across NZDF were in good working order. Good to see a press release from NZ MinDef- maybe this time they mean it.

My pick would be the HK416. Different barrell lengths for different situations. CQB to open country. Can be accessorised like an M4.

Re the Picatinny rail- you see lots of pics of NZ steyrs with Acogs (though not as frequently as the standard fitted scope. You also see laser pointers. Not sure if other optics are used (Eotech, Aimpopint etc)

old stuff article from 2013
Defence seeks upgrade for 25-year-old rifles | Stuff.co.nz
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
My pick would be the HK416. Different barrell lengths for different situations. CQB to open country. Can be accessorised like an M4.

Re the Picatinny rail- you see lots of pics of NZ steyrs with Acogs (though not as frequently as the standard fitted scope. You also see laser pointers. Not sure if other optics are used (Eotech, Aimpopint etc)
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The LMT version of the M4 would have to be a strong contender after the success of the DWM. There would be some advantages of weapons that are basically the same apart from caliber from a training and supportability standpoint.

The Steyr A3 would also have to be up there. Not sure if there would be any other serious contenders.

The Steyrs with rails you see were part of a limited upgrade for RF infantry units. From memory everyone else missed out.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
The LMT version of the M4 would have to be a strong contender after the success of the DWM. There would be some advantages of weapons that are basically the same apart from caliber from a training and supportability standpoint.

The Steyr A3 would also have to be up there. Not sure if there would be any other serious contenders.
Could Lewis Machine Tool manage an order of 8000+ rifles? I know very little about firearms, but thought they were more of a niche manufacturer. All the talk about customability and accessories makes me suspect they will go for something from the AR15/M16/M4 family

With regard to the upgraded Steyr, could it be described as an 'off-the-shelf' weaopn, as per the media release? As far as I know it's not in service with anyone yet, although is presumably a dead cert for the Aussies and a strong contender (via Thales) for France.

From memory the RFI last year for for approx 2000 rifles, with responders to advise if there were dicounts for buying in larger volumes. Given this release covers up to 8800 rifles, presumably the answer was 'yes'!
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
The LMT version of the M4 would have to be a strong contender after the success of the DWM. There would be some advantages of weapons that are basically the same apart from caliber from a training and supportability standpoint.

The Steyr A3 would also have to be up there. Not sure if there would be any other serious contenders.

The Steyrs with rails you see were part of a limited upgrade for RF infantry units. From memory everyone else missed out.
Don't know why NZ would want to buy the Steyr A3 when they could just get the EF-88 from their cousins across the pond, possibly at "mates rates". It's modernised, has plenty of rails and accessories, and so forth. Unless there's some details regarding the A3 does that I'm not aware of?
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
Don't know why NZ would want to buy the Steyr A3 when they could just get the EF-88 from their cousins across the pond, possibly at "mates rates". It's modernised, has plenty of rails and accessories, and so forth. Unless there's some details regarding the A3 does that I'm not aware of?
I suspect there are probably still some bad feelings about the first batch of Australian produced Steyrs. I'm not sure mateship is that forgiving!
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
Could Lewis Machine Tool manage an order of 8000+ rifles? I know very little about firearms, but thought they were more of a niche manufacturer. All the talk about customability and accessories makes me suspect they will go for something from the AR15/M16/M4 family

No idea.

Couldn't rule out the possibility of 'standard' M4s for everyone else and more Gucci versions for RF infantry. The LWS replacement essentially had multiple tiers of product, with the RF infantry getting the all-singing, all-dancing version, the RF support arms getting something less, and the TF getting the very basic model.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I suspect there are probably still some bad feelings about the first batch of Australian produced Steyrs. I'm not sure mateship is that forgiving!
First batch of Steyr's were brought directly from Austria not Australia main problems from that time was poor training on the weapon in regards to cleaning, shooting & our blank rounds that had a very sensitive primer that went off when cocked had nothing to do with our cousins across the ditch.
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
Could Lewis Machine Tool manage an order of 8000+ rifles? I know very little about firearms, but thought they were more of a niche manufacturer. All the talk about customability and accessories makes me suspect they will go for something from the AR15/M16/M4 family
I think LMT is one of the many manufacturers in the US that produces M4 rifles.

As regards Steyr A3/EF88, doesnt the gov't press releases call for something that "can also be adjusted to suit different body sizes, and for the wearing of personal kit".
To me this suggests they have something like an AR platform in mind- where the stock can be adjusted. Steyr and EF88 cannot be adjusted. Maybe suggests that they have allready made their mind up.
 

pkcasimir

Member
Could Lewis Machine Tool manage an order of 8000+ rifles? I know very little about firearms, but thought they were more of a niche manufacturer. All the talk about customability and accessories makes me suspect they will go for something from the AR15/M16/M4 family

The US Army owns the M4 design and all M4s are manufactured under license from them. There currently are four US companies and three foreign companies that are authorized to manufacture the M4 and its variants. The last M4 contract the US Army awarded was to FN Hertsal, a French company with manufacturing plants in the US. Should NZ wish to purchase the M4 they will have to go through the US Government. The politics of M4 procurement in the US are very dicey since Colt protested a 2012 US Army contract to Remington and lost. The US Army was not very happy.

That said, the M4 carbine and its variants is the absolute best choice for NZ.
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
Why would the M4 etc., be the best choice for NZ?
Ambidextrous
Fully adjustable for body size
Massive range of accessories
Parts interchangeable with the DMW (already in coy inventory)
Global availability of spare parts
Already in service with parts of the NZDF
In service with NZ Police
Certified armorer instructors already trained in NZ
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
What's the soldiers view in terms of IW replacement CD? I know systems have already been trialled, experienced and generally tutued with and would be more interested in someones honest opinion from Waiouru vs Wellington.

I guess M4 does have advantages already (allies, support, options etc) and if our tier 1s already give it the nod then can't get much more 'trialling' than that done realistically but still interested in what joe soldier thinks on the ground in terms of operation, use and functionality.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Ambidextrous
Fully adjustable for body size
Massive range of accessories
Parts interchangeable with the DMW (already in coy inventory)
Global availability of spare parts
Already in service with parts of the NZDF
In service with NZ Police
Certified armorer instructors already trained in NZ
1. which version of the M4 are you referring to?, M4, M4A1, or M4A2 all different versions
2. Not an issue relates to training and muscle memory,
3. 5.56mm M4 is not interchangeable with 7.62mm DMW two different weapon systems,
4. Steyr parts are made right here in NZ & Australia not an issue,
5. Only TG6 are issued M4 they have the ability to purchase weapons that suit there needs.
6. M4 is not compatible with the NZ police bushmaster.
7. Army armourers had to do a conversion course to touch bushmaster in Afghan and not all are trained to operate on the M4.

None of these requirements are part of the trial being conducted at the School of Infantry and Capability branch.

So not so clear cut as some make it out to be.

IW steyr has one main advantage over the M4 that is always lost in the debate - 20 inch barrel with a 1:7 twist optimised for the SS109 NATO round and now the Mk 262 round no 16 inch barrel will come close to the effectiveness of a 20 inch the extra 4 inches with a 1:7 twist will outperform any M4 clone today and tomorrow.
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
Wow Dave, so many 'not an issues' I must have imagined all that grumbling for the last 20 years. Everything is great, nothing to see here....
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
What's the soldiers view in terms of IW replacement CD? I know systems have already been trialled, experienced and generally tutued with and would be more interested in someones honest opinion from Waiouru vs Wellington.

I guess M4 does have advantages already (allies, support, options etc) and if our tier 1s already give it the nod then can't get much more 'trialling' than that done realistically but still interested in what joe soldier thinks on the ground in terms of operation, use and functionality.
These are some of the comments on the 1RNZIR FB page;

The design of the Steyr is still pretty god damn good.... IMO, the ergonomics of the rifle are pretty good, its a little heavier than some, and doesn't have a big "cool guy" factor about it, but its smaller than the ARs and well thought out and functional.... but "i think" its the old 5.56mmx45mm that has shown its weakness... outside of the close country conflict.

And the old sight on the Steyr was also found to be wanting..... optics...optics and optics... good optics will also help no end!,

However, I do know the SCAR family was trialed a couple of years ago and found to be....inadequate.

Fuk the cocking handle though - SCARL

these comments are from very high ranking still serving Infantrymen who were a part of the last trial/tutu with Combat School/Cap branch.

As for me I started my career on the following:

M16A1/L1A1 SLR
Bren/L7A1 GPMG
M79/M16,203

transitioned to the IW/C9 been taught and instructed on the M4 and its derivatives, taught the East Timorese on the M16A2, Tongans on there Galil, instructed others on the AK series, SA80 family, SAR21, Portuguese G3 the list goes on and on.

At the end of it the only fault I can find on the IW Steyr is the sighting system the SP IW Steyr while not as sexy as an M4 outperformed the M4 in every category going like,

Reliability,
Functionability,
Range,
Lethality etc,

It is still an outstanding weapon system that's need to be updated and the F90 looks and feels a better package.

The Mk 262 ball round in an 20 inch barrel comes very close to the performance one would see in a 7.62mm rifle so my gut feeling is the F90 will be in a shoot off with what ever HK416 type system makes it, but no way is an M4/HK416 ever going to outshoot a IW in both accuracy or range the deck is too stacked thanks to that extra 4 inches and 1:7 twist in the F90.

Fully understanding your weapon knowing how to employ it is still the main fundamental skill set, there is no better proof of this mantra than the current Steyr with the 1.5 site out shooting the SP Steyr with Acogs at the Freyberg shooting Competition thanks to 5/7 RNZIR who are the current RNZIR shooting champions.

So regardless what we get at the end of the day if our training fails to prepare our soldiers properly then nothing we purchase is going to rectify that training gap.
 
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