The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

Astute

Astute

New Member
Ok your taking what started out one thing and twisting it into something else .
So I'm going to bring it back to were it started .
First post scroll up ^ I said I like khareef class corvettes and would of liked to seen a few in the RN , ( just my opinion ) then I said * if we did buy corvettes the politicians would only use them as an excuse to cut type 26 numbers ( fair comment )

Next post I said I would never swap a type 26 for a few khareef class corvettes , but corvettes do have there uses and they do offer great capabilities on a budjet and I believe they were a good buy tbh ( again my opinion )

I only ment I'd have corvettes as a extra not as replacement or substitute or instead of a type 26 that's just crazy lol

But the fact is we are only getting 3 new opv because we would of had to hand over 100s millions to BAE in contract penalties anyway , so we might as well get a few hulls out of it instead , that was the mod thinking they had no choice tbh , and yes I believe a frigate is overkill in a few situations were a smaller ship would do but I'm saying a lightly armed opv might be under kill so a corvette might just fit nicely in the middle , but again only as a extra on a shopping list if we had spare resources which we don't , which is laughable really considering we are building 2 65.000 ton aircraft carriers .
 
Last edited:
RobWilliams

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
You said (and I quote)

But on the point of khareef corvettes been over kill for anti pirating / drug smuggling , we were sending frigates to do these deployments ???? That's over kill in my opinion but we didn't have anything else to send
Click to expand...
Which I interpreted to mean that you believe that if we did have something else to send (like a Khareef class) then you would send them for piracy in place of a frigate because this was said in direct response to me saying Khareef corvettes are overkill. Which they are.

You go on to say

and yes I believe a frigate is overkill in a few situations were a smaller ship would do but I'm saying a lightly armed opv might be under kill so a corvette might just fit nicely in the middle
Click to expand...
These are OPVs, they are not war fighting vessels. You said yourself you approved of them being bought if they were for taking out pirates or drug smugglers, so now you want them to be equipped for war?

For taking our pirates etc you only need a helicopter capability and a 30mm, anything else is worthless.

I only ment I'd have corvettes as a extra not as replacement or substitute or instead of a type 26 that's just crazy lol
Click to expand...
Agreed, which is why I believe talking about them in the context of being extra to anything is a bit dubious without acknowledging that budgets would need changing because there is no need for these vessels which wouldn't be funded from other funds. These ships have capabilities which could be considered as pretty 'frigate like' and so we lose Type 26 hull numbers to buy and man those corvettes. That is inevitable.

I'd really like you to to justify these more than 'nice to have', because I can't see the point in buying a ship with overkill capabilities to do a job an OPV can handle at the cost of losing some main surface combatants. A corvette is more expensive and more overkill for the job we want these OPVs to do moreover it is less capable than the ships we would be losing to allow us to buy it.
 
RobWilliams

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Biggest ASW exercise for the RN in a while is going to be occurring soon, with HMS Illustrious doing what she was designed to do with an air group of 9 Merlin HM2 helicopters.

Aircraft deployed from RNAS Culdrose near Helston, Cornwall | Western Morning News

The nine Merlins will allow 3 aircraft to be in the air hunting for submarines 24/7, chances are Ocean won't be available for COUGAR 14 because she's not out of her refit yet (but she's close), so this might not be the last outing for Illustrious.
 
S

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
If you look at the navies that buy the very top end corvettes, they're usually small ones where the corvette is the top of their line, in the way that a type 26 will be a capital ship for the RN. High end corvettes don't usually co-exist with larger, high end combatants in the same force structure because they creep dangerously close to high end costs (because they end up with much the same sensors, weapons and counter measures!)
 
RobWilliams

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
HMS Defender has become the 5th Type 45 destroyer to deploy on operations, her first deployment will be the Gulf region (she fired her first Sea Viper shot a month ago)

https://navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/10585

Still a bit iffy about using her to hunt pirates etc, but she's placed in a critical junction for world trade and makes her well placed to rapidly respond to events in the region. E.g when it looked like everyone was going to dive into Syria, Dragon made up part of an air defence shield for Cyprus and was pulled off doing those duties and had her patrol extended.

Add to that she won't just be chasing pirates etc, every single Type 45 that has went to the Gulf ran exercises with US carriers doing the very role they're designed to do & trained with Typhoons/F-15s and in some cases F-22s simulating attacks on the ship and acting as fighter controllers.

https://navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/10565

This was first reported a while ago, but i'll just add it here. The communications mast as been fitted to HMS Queen Elizabeth and makes her as tall as she'll get, it's designed to be able to be lowered when she leaves Rosyth to be able to pass under the Forth bridges.

EDIT: Plus a bit more info about the MPA offer from L-3, Selex & Ultra, but i'd still have to say P-8 is the bird I want to see.

http://aviationweek.com/awin-only/l-3-selex-and-ultra-partner-multi-mission-aircraft-offering
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
I can't help wondering about the choice of platform. They could offer the same aircraft as the Sentinel, for example, & get more range & capacity, & considerable commonality with aircraft already in service. Is low-speed loitering the explanation?
 
RobWilliams

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Presumably that's part of it, it's cheaper to purchase and probably cheaper to run than a typical jet engined aircraft. Looking at the base aircraft, the Global Express (Sentinel) is described as an 'ultra long range business jet' while the Q400 (Consortium option) is described as a 'medium range turboprop airliner'.

In terms of base aircraft, the difference in range becomes ~5800 miles for Sentinel while the Q400 is around 1600 miles. MTOW are 93,500lbs and 64,500lbs respectively. In a really simplified comparison of the two, the Q400 would have a reduced payload (be it weapons, sonobuoys, mission stations), patrol range & endurance.

Those are qualities which are pretty important (IMO) in the selection of an MPA. My personal opinion is picking anything other than the P-8 would be unwise, it's the best platform we could pick and the majority of the operators we have which can do MPA work are trained on the P-8 (including maintainers IIRC). If we could sweet talk the US into selling us a cluster of AAS canoes then we can role Sentinel into the MPA fleet and expand it by an airframe or two.

Although it has to be said, the US doesn't have any plans to fit AAS onto any of their P-8's apart from *if* the design was picked for their JSTAR replacement because they're not training their MPA crews for over-land work, but we should because we can't afford two separate fleets. Hell, give 'em torps, an AShM + an air launched cruise missile and that's all the offensive armament they'd need.
 
StevoJH

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Australian Customs has Dash 8 MPA's operated by a Cobham subsidiary.

Obviously these are civil rather then military aircraft, and not sure how a Dash 8 derivative would compare to the capabilties that MRA.4 would have had.

They should have just built new fuselages for the things as well as wings.....
 
RobWilliams

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
MRA4 would have been a mean platform, great endurance and payload. Apparently it would have been a pretty decent ELINT/SIGINT It's a real shame how it played out, it could have truly been a world beating aircraft.

It'd be like comparing the Dash 8 to a P-8, that's the sort of gap (maybe even then some) between that aircraft and what MRA4 could have been.
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
StevoJH said:
... not sure how a Dash 8 derivative would compare to the capabilties that MRA.4 would have had.

They should have just built new fuselages for the things as well as wings.....
Click to expand...
Yep. Of all the options (new built P-3 derivative, refurbished P-3s with new equipment, new airliner-based type, re-life old Nimrods & fit new equipment, build a new Nimrod-based type, & rebuild old Nimrods into what was effectively a new type) they picked what was probably the riskiest. Then sacked the man responsible for signing off the risk case when he refused to do so because it was too risky. :(
 
RobWilliams

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
BAE wants to put in £200mn-£300mn to build a 'frigate factory' based on either a one site or two site model. The one site is BAE's preferred option where everything will be done in one shipyard in Scotstoun, the less favoured option is to keep Govan and Scotstoun both open doing different work in each yard.

Work on constructing the facilities won't start until after the referendum result has been declared, but they're working on designs and plans for both options.

The option of the separation actually going ahead is something not being considered as a serious outcome.
 
S

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
There's probably been some back channel discussion about "what if..." but the vote appears to be roughly 30% in favour, 30% against and 30% "I dunno..." right now.
 
RobWilliams

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
AFAIK they need to get a majority for discussions to begin, but when I look into it the "No" poll always seems to be 10%+ ahead when there's a significant proportion of "Don't know"s and support for "No" increases when "Don't know" decreases.
 
S

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
True - either there's another coat or someone's colour processing isn't spot on.

Eitherway, ZMOG..! It r hooj!

:)

Sorry, I'm like an excited kid over this...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top