The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Jeneral2885]

2nd Warning Issued. Read the forum rules before posting further. The rule about "one-liner" replies is because forum members are expected to contribute to the discussion either with information, ideas, or questions, that advance the discussion. Single line commentary and/or multiple posts each containing a small blurb that instead of consolidating such commentary into a larger post do not advance discussion. By now it should be clear that the Mod Team is keeping a watchful eye,
-Preceptor

I was simply thanking RobW for his input on the Lynx Wildcat and the Merlin Squadrons. It is an act of courtesy and the opinion of mine is that it will sad (do I have to explain sad?) that FAA Squadrons will (depending on your views) will go.

I'm not sure how essay like that can be. Some of RobW comments do not tell me much either: "Nah, the main elements are fixed, they're not going to change (CAMM, ARTISAN, 2087, strike length cells"==that does not add to the info which is well known already. And since my posts were deleted, the flow of answers from Rob is broken as well.

I hope this is long enough and you consider the inputs I give in other threads.

Let me say I learn fast.
[Mod Edit: Good bye and good riddance to the little troll. See additional warnings issued here, here, and here, across multiple threads. ]

 

[RobWilliams]

You said

It still could head in a different direction given changing political and economic environments

And I disagree because the meat and bones of the ship are design elements which are fixed. We're talking military design here, those elements I described are the common elements of a multi-mission submarine hunting platform and have been present since the project was known as the FSC. They are unlikely to change in any radical direction soon as the design will be revealed within 15 months and they've been working on it for 7+ years.

If the fact that those elements are "well known" to be fixed then what else of it can change because of political and economical environments? The only real things that can change are the number of strike length cells (which we have evidence of) and number of hulls (always a concern), it's a no brainer.

You claimed something , I disagreed and explained why.

 

[StobieWan]

Well, the Type 26 design is driven by the RN's requirements - the concept of operations and the missions for which it's intended. In an ever changing world, I suspect the RN already has a tolerable lock on the things it needs to accomplish.

So, whatever happens, you'll be looking at something with legs, room, an ASW focus and some local air defence, layered with a set of land attack options.

The details may change a bit and the eventual way that the ship operates may drift from the original brief but that set of requirements pretty much drive what the ship will look like, how big it will be and what it'll cost.

I'll be really interested in seeing how the costings add up as the re-use of systems from Type 23 is alleged to keep the unit price down.

 

[Astute]

Hi , I've just been reading a article about the second mistral class BPC the French are building for the Russian navy , in the current climate of unrest in Ukraine and the west tightening their exports and imposing sanctions on Russia there is the possibility France might cancel the deal for the second ship and maybe sell it off to another country , which had me thinking could a deal be done to bring it across the channel

I must admit I'm a fan of these ships , I know there is a lot of talk on other forums about how POW will be used in the future or in some opinions mothballed and even sold off which I think will be more lightly tbh but I say that with a heavy heart. It's hard to put up a case for buying this ship in the current climate but I find the capabilities it offers would be a great asset to the RN .

but there's a question which if possible would really make looking at buying 1 of these ships more sweet in my opinion , could mistral operate f-35b ? . I know there would need to be work done to the flight deck to protect it from the heat of the down thrust from the the f-35b engine etc but could it be done without to much redesigning ? Ooo and £££££££££ .

 

[StevoJH]

Hi , I've just been reading a article about the second mistral class BPC the French are building for the Russian navy , in the current climate of unrest in Ukraine and the west tightening their exports and imposing sanctions on Russia there is the possibility France might cancel the deal for the second ship and maybe sell it off to another country , which had me thinking could a deal be done to bring it across the channel

At this point, I believe that the French have said that they will continue to fulfil their part of the contract with Russia, should that change, it is possible that the ship may go up for sale, however it is equally possible that it might be kept for the French Navy.

I must admit I'm a fan of these ships , I know there is a lot of talk on other forums about how POW will be used in the future or in some opinions mothballed and even sold off which I think will be more lightly tbh but I say that with a heavy heart. It's hard to put up a case for buying this ship in the current climate but I find the capabilities it offers would be a great asset to the RN .

I like the style of ship (LHD) but i'm not sure how well those ships themselves would fit into the RN. Seeing as how they have been built with another country in mind (Russia) and the ships are being fitted out with a partly French equipment fitout (which would make it unique within the RN) which would then have to be integrated with replacement British systems in order for the ships to operate properly within an RN task group.

If the RN wants a LHD, they would probably be better off to get one built from scratch with their own systems aboard.

but there's a question which if possible would really make looking at buying 1 of these ships more sweet in my opinion , could mistral operate f-35b ? . I know there would need to be work done to the flight deck to protect it from the heat of the down thrust from the the f-35b engine etc but could it be done without to much redesigning ? Ooo and £££££££££ .

The short answer is no.

No ski jump, short flight deck, fuel and munitions handling and storage facilities (and capacities) not designed around fast jet operation, etc.

Actually, could an F-35 even fit on the lifts of a Mistral class?

 

[Astute]

I believe the French government is still looking for a plan b for this ship which is still under construction , on another defence news site it says they are looking at offering it to the US hmmmm I don't think they need it tbh lol but I do see your point it would be costly and would need some very extensive redesigning which goes against it as a opportunist purchase so to speak .

I'm sure BAE have plenty of designs laying around for a LHD but after the QE class aircraft carriers mess I doubt the uk government asking them for one soon.

I still think the mistral are a fine ship but after looking into it more I can see why Australia passed on it at went for the bit larger Spanish design for it's Canberra class LHD's

 

[RobWilliams]

I'd been quite fond of the idea that the French pick her up, their DWP ended the possibility of a 4th Mistral but if they've got one in build with not many prospects of finding a seller than i'd quite like the French to have it. Could have a pair of them in their very high readiness group alongside CdG when she's about, VERY potent.

We won't get her, it doesn't fit in very well with the budget, crewing etc. The best we can hope for is come 2030 we replace our LPDs with a pair of LHDs and separate rotary and fixed wing from the QEC and make the QEC 'proper' carriers with a main aim of providing F-35B/ASW/AEW assets.

That's my golden egg, but i'm pretty content with the current situation. Considering the underspend i'd like to bring both LPDs into service. Then again there's a lot of things i'd spend it on *8th Astute*.

BAE have a design for an LHD and whilst it's not totally comparable to a JC1 or even a Mistral it's not a bad design. 2 hovercraft or LCU + 5 LCVP, 800 troops, 100 'vehicles', 6 medium helos which isn't ideal, but that's 6+ spaces for F-35#s on a QEC. But like I said, still not really comparable.

 

[rnrp]

I'd been quite fond of the idea that the French pick her up, their DWP ended the possibility of a 4th Mistral but if they've got one in build with not many prospects of finding a seller than i'd quite like the French to have it. Could have a pair of them in their very high readiness group alongside CdG when she's about, VERY potent.

We won't get her, it doesn't fit in very well with the budget, crewing etc. The best we can hope for is come 2030 we replace our LPDs with a pair of LHDs and separate rotary and fixed wing from the QEC and make the QEC 'proper' carriers with a main aim of providing F-35B/ASW/AEW assets.

That's my golden egg, but i'm pretty content with the current situation. Considering the underspend i'd like to bring both LPDs into service. Then again there's a lot of things i'd spend it on *8th Astute*.

BAE have a design for an LHD and whilst it's not totally comparable to a JC1 or even a Mistral it's not a bad design. 2 hovercraft or LCU + 5 LCVP, 800 troops, 100 'vehicles', 6 medium helos which isn't ideal, but that's 6+ spaces for F-35#s on a QEC. But like I said, still not really comparable.

The problem the RN has at the minute, before any extra war canoe is taken on is how in gods name are we going to staff it.
Albion is in deep preserve/refit and is being manned by FTRS ratings to enable critical systems to be kept alive.
The escort fleet is gapped in innumerable places which strains the rest of the crews. When Illustrious pays off her crew can either provide the crew foe QE or fill gaps in the rest of the fleet.
The RN no longer has the available manning to fulfil its needs, if & when the rivers are kept on, surely fleet Hq will look at re aligning the RNR branch structure to better reflect the RN proper an hand over the Fish Sqn to the RNR.
Anyway your thoughts?

 

[RobWilliams]

Personnel is always the kicker for any project, IMO one of the main reasons the QEC are still going is that in terms of manning there's barely any difference between Illustrious and Ocean (IIRC Illustrious' crew will make up Queen Elizabeths and Ocean will Prince of Wales).

But that's a decision for SDSR 2015, while SDSR 2010 outlined their plan for FF2020 it doesn't stop Labour from altering it in 2015 including budget alterations with respect to manning, but it's still unlikely.

Type 26 manning levels are some 70ish less than the Type 23, so one could make the assumption that when the Type 26 fully replaces the Type 23 that could be 1000+ personnel savings which could be allocated elsewhere. But that's into the 2030s so too far to worry about cough *LHD* cough.

Said it before and i'll say it again, 2015 is the make or break year for the RN.

 

[rnrp]

Personnel is always the kicker for any project, IMO one of the main reasons the QEC are still going is that in terms of manning there's barely any difference between Illustrious and Ocean (IIRC Illustrious' crew will make up Queen Elizabeths and Ocean will Prince of Wales).

But that's a decision for SDSR 2015, while SDSR 2010 outlined their plan for FF2020 it doesn't stop Labour from altering it in 2015 including budget alterations with respect to manning, but it's still unlikely.

Type 26 manning levels are some 70ish less than the Type 23, so one could make the assumption that when the Type 26 fully replaces the Type 23 that could be 1000+ personnel savings which could be allocated elsewhere. But that's into the 2030s so too far to worry about cough *LHD* cough.

Said it before and i'll say it again, 2015 is the make or break year for the RN.

Yeah I understand the manning levels for the 26. Whilst the RN is offering its engineers 12k a year to stay for an extra 3 yrs, I would surmise that they actually have a problem in the here and now never mind post 2015.
In the long run it's going to take a 1st Sea Lord with a conviction to say to the SOS, sorry but I can no longer supply x so what are your priorities.
But that's in the future, but how distant?

 

[Jeneral2885]

I hope this one works...

Will there be any manning difference between Type 26 ASW variant and the GP variant.

Philip Dunne was cut short but promised the first order of eight ships.

[Mr Jim Hood in the Chair] — Royal Navy Ships: 3 Dec 2013: Westminster Hall debates - TheyWorkForYou

If he could have continued he might have given another hint as to how close the final numbers will be.

I doubt its just 2015 that will decide the RN's fate--or the whole armed forces. As we've seen from SDSR 2010 to 2014, there were changed made--Army 2020 not the same as SDSR, F-35 variant changed, carrier commissioning and costs etc...

Is this post sufficient?

 

[RobWilliams]

Probably, won't be sonar operators and maintainers of the ASW equipment needed for instance.

Right now all planning assumptions are based around 13 Type 26's IIRC, although ideally if costs can be kept suitably low then perhaps we might get a couple more. But then that means buying extra sets of what we're pulling rough from the type 23s so no clever accounting there.

True, true. Might have been a bit melodramatic. But it will be a pretty definitive year for the UK armed forces. MPA decision, type 26 decision, crowsnest', f-35 numbers, carrier operation decision, if the 3 opvs are replacing or supplementing the rivers, hopefully something about MARS SSS, FRES, see if we get C-17 #9.

It'll be interesting to read.

EDIT: as an aside, the Royal Navy is reporting that HMS Astute is fully operational on their website

 

[kev 99]

EDIT: as an aside, the Royal Navy is reporting that HMS Astute is fully operational on their website

At the risk of angering the moderators regarding one liners, it's about bloody time.

 

[RobWilliams]

Too right mate, it seemed as though she'd never see service. First of class and all that, but shes been doing trials with chalfont recently so probably took a bit of time trying to get that capability back which we lost with the Swiftsures.

Can only imagine Ambush isn't that far behind either.

 

[Astute]

Totally agree with rob , 2015 is crucial to the future of the armed forces not just because of the major decisions on future projects such as those touched on above but for the morale of our service personnel .

In these times of tight budgets and department black holes through out government I feel defence as taken one for the country , but these are dangerous times and I hope the accountants realise this to and make available the investment needed or drop any ambitions as a military power and active player on the world stage ,

our armed forces have been taken for granted , been tasked to deploy around the world on a shoe string , while government accountants sat behind desks with little to no defence experience cuts funding which effects capabilities , I really hope they get it right in 2015 *fingers crossed*

PS , nice to see astute out there doing what it was made to do at last , ambush next , artful in the water , it's looking good

 

[StobieWan]

Yeah I understand the manning levels for the 26. Whilst the RN is offering its engineers 12k a year to stay for an extra 3 yrs, I would surmise that they actually have a problem in the here and now never mind post 2015.
In the long run it's going to take a 1st Sea Lord with a conviction to say to the SOS, sorry but I can no longer supply x so what are your priorities.
But that's in the future, but how distant?

This is the thing - taskwise, you can stretch a bit for a while but right now, everything is being pulled permanently. Eventually, all those ships break and the technical guys walk to nicer jobs in civvy street. We need either less taskings or more ships and sailors.

Here's hoping the personnel are found to run all the OPV's, and that we get at least 13 Type 26, preferably a further pair of GP, or even (shiver of anticipation) perhaps a UK built AWD variant towards the end of the cycle.

On a Type 26 related note, here's an interesting article on the future of Brit ship building..

After the boom: BAE Systems and the future of UK shipyards - Naval Technology

A single site, frigate factory would be super awesome as it'd drive down costs and improve build times for surface combatants. Heck, maybe we could even offer a decent export option with a reasonably priced ship built in the UK (obviously, that's f*cked if the Scots pull the plug on being shackled to the oppressive English of course)

 

[Astute]

Agreed , a frigate factory would have alot of bonuses in type 26 production , most you have covered stobiewan all sounds very positive ,

I believe plan A is a £200m investment in a single site located at scotstoun , including a new 360 yard dock hall which would mean two ships could be built and worked on at the same time .
Plan B would include a £100m investment but would mean parts of the ships would need to be barged up the Clyde from one yard to the other which isn't ideal tbh even though it worked with the QE aircraft carrier build it's still another expense .

I guess they must have a plan c somewhere incase Scotland goes with the independence vote , I've heard Portsmouth mentioned on other forums and maybe even cammell laird but I believe BAE still see scotstoun as it's favourite even though mentioning Portsmouth still as the skilled trades people needed but not in the numbers required for this size of project , but as a tradesmen myself who's worked on large construction projects up and down the uk, people go where the work is so if needed I'm sure there would be no shortage of skilled tradesmen if needed ,

Just on another note regarding the type 26 is there any news on possible partners in the project ? I've heard many rumours over the years and around 7 countries were reported to of shown interest but nothing lately ,

 

[Volkodav]

A frigate factory would be a good way to go as hopefully with the economies achieved in building the initial 13 hulls enough savings could be found to fund additional ships, either extra GP frigates or evolved air warfare versions. Best keep it simple though, an extra three GP to take the class out to 16 hulls would be great then if Putin is still carrying on maybe look to the AWDs.

Nothing like a clear threat to get capabilities back on track, 6 Daring, 16 Type 26 and 6 future AWDs.

 

[StobieWan]

Plan B if Scotland hit the eject switch? I'd suggest somewhere ooop t'North, there's a couple of good sized yards, including Pallion at my old stamping ground, Sunderland. Portsmouth would be politically more likely as it'd be an instant "have your jobs back" moment but I'd really want the facility to be modern and all tasks done on site - the Type 45's could have been built in 2/3 the time (funds permitting)

If we could really get Type 26 laid down in such a yard, it'd shave a ton off the faffing around side of things, we'd have a core of a logically arranged, modern ship builder, with current production of a flexible and affordable modern ASW frigate.

International participation? I've no solid information - Canada and Turkey bailed a while back, although Canada's reasoning was that they wanted something in production now, but they've then went on to delay their decisions by so long, we might be back in with a shot.

India, Brazil, Australia and perhaps NZ remain at least prospects.

 

[swerve]

Cammell Laird at Birkenhead can deal with anything short of a CVF. I think the No. 5 dock is almost, but not quite, big enough, but could be enlarged, as Rosyth no 1 dock was. Been used for refitting amphibs recently.

Pallion has a big enough dock for frigates, destroyers, etc., but I think might need upgrading of other facilities.

Either would bring employment to an area which needs it.