Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Given what CJohn has posted here I would presume that it wouldn't be feasible nor practical to try and reuse the old mounts on the MPSC and LWSC. I'd forgotton about CJs post.
Ah yes, I seem to remember hearing about sub-standard weapon performance - can't remember if they were u/s a lot or what, but I do seem to remember hearing talk about them being affected by sea-spray & wash. In that case yes, ditch them!

I'd still like to see every vessel in the fleet with enough manually operated .5 HMG's on-board to cover every angle of approach. :sniper
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Ah yes, I seem to remember hearing about sub-standard weapon performance - can't remember if they were u/s a lot or what, but I do seem to remember hearing talk about them being affected by sea-spray & wash. In that case yes, ditch them!

I'd still like to see every vessel in the fleet with enough manually operated .5 HMG's on-board to cover every angle of approach. :sniper
Or look at mini Typhoon for the same role providing far greater accuracy and effects.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Good idea but that means spending money :sniper
Yes that was my thinking - manually operated HMG's could be installed without any great hassle - & relatively little cost. Once you move to the mini-typhoon, there is suddenly a bunch of hoops to jump thru to get approval, there has to be a warranty contract, and money for sensors. Yes mini-typhoon would certainly be preferable across the whole fleet, but one must assume RNZN doesn't see the need, or the cost-benefit analysis doesn;t stack up!
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Yes that was my thinking - manually operated HMG's could be installed without any great hassle - & relatively little cost. Once you move to the mini-typhoon, there is suddenly a bunch of hoops to jump thru to get approval, there has to be a warranty contract, and money for sensors. Yes mini-typhoon would certainly be preferable across the whole fleet, but one must assume RNZN doesn't see the need, or the cost-benefit analysis doesn;t stack up!
I agree with you about the .50 cals. They are a great problem solver and my favourite automatic weapon having had the pleasure of using them at sea and ashore :D I was wondering about how or if the legacy radars on the two ANZAC frigates would be any good at picking up ASMs & fast boats. I realise that they are being replaced for that and other reasons, but my thinking is that the if they are able to do so, then maybe the radars could be transferred across from the ANZAC frigates after the sensors & weapons refit. If this can be done then maybe a Mk41 VLS SDL (Self Defence Launcher) module could be fitted to the MPSC and the LWSC. The Mk41 SDL is shorter and lighter than the standard Mk41 VLS so these to ships could be fitted fitted for bit not with Sea Ceptor. It would future proof the vessels and if required to go near or through a "hot zone" they would have some self defence capability against air and ASM threats. This idea hinges on the legacy frigate radars ability against ASM and fast surface vessels.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Just curious, with the extended time that Cantabria was in Aus for, is anyone aware, officially or un-officially, whether NZ showed any interest in the design ?

Cheers
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Just curious, with the extended time that Cantabria was in Aus for, is anyone aware, officially or un-officially, whether NZ showed any interest in the design ?

Cheers
I would've thought the RNZN and possibly the MoD MPSC would've had a look over it whilst was in these parts. Navantia probably would've have responded to the RFI issued last year. Cantabria was still in Australia after the RFI response date. In a recent statement the Minister said that a decision will be announced near future.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I would've thought the RNZN and possibly the MoD MPSC would've had a look over it whilst was in these parts. Navantia probably would've have responded to the RFI issued last year. Cantabria was still in Australia after the RFI response date. In a recent statement the Minister said that a decision will be announced near future.
Thanks NG, yeah that is what I thought, so would have expected if RNZN and MoD did have a look that Navantia would have made a bit of noise about it, but never saw anything in Aus, so was just curious if it made any news locally, but obviously not

Cheers
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Delays extend delivery of HMAS Canberra by six months | News.com.au

The first ship was due to be commissioned by the Royal Australian Navy in June but that has been put back until December. The initial delivery of the ship from the builder to the Defence Materiel Organisation (DMO) and navy was also delayed from February this year until August. The LHD is the biggest ship ever built for the navy.
News of the delay comes as unions warn of massive job losses due to a lack of shipbuilding decisions in the federal Budget. Shipyard workers took their case to Canberra yesterday warning of job cuts in excess of 3800 under the so-called shipbuilding “valley of death”.
Does this mean we might be short on ships?

LHD delayed
no balikpapan
Trobruk (?)
Kanimbla obviously gone.

HMAS Ocean Shield off chasing echos.

Elections in Fiji comming up.
Link
 

King Wally

Active Member
Delays extend delivery of HMAS Canberra by six months | News.com.au



Does this mean we might be short on ships?

LHD delayed
no balikpapan
Trobruk (?)
Kanimbla obviously gone.

HMAS Ocean Shield off chasing echos.

Elections in Fiji comming up.
Link
You would hope the RAN has Choules in tip top shape around that time then. It would seam the most logical plan B if the LHD's are not ready. Our Kiwi brothers may want to make sure HMNZS Canterbury is in fair shape as well. If something is going to go south in Fiji it's highly likely it will trigger around the elections so time is ticking.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
You would hope the RAN has Choules in tip top shape around that time then. It would seam the most logical plan B if the LHD's are not ready. Our Kiwi brothers may want to make sure HMNZS Canterbury is in fair shape as well. If something is going to go south in Fiji it's highly likely it will trigger around the elections so time is ticking.
Its more complicated than that. The relationship between Fiji, Australia and China is a complex one. The relationship between China, Bainimarama and Australia is also complex. China has been quite supportive of Bainimarama.

Its not completely impossible that the Chinese might send some resources to before, during or after. Or some agreement in play in the space.

Regardless of that elections in pacific nations (particularly fiji) have always been very dynamic.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Its more complicated than that. The relationship between Fiji, Australia and China is a complex one. The relationship between China, Bainimarama and Australia is also complex. China has been quite supportive of Bainimarama.

Its not completely impossible that the Chinese might send some resources to before, during or after. Or some agreement in play in the space.

Regardless of that elections in pacific nations (particularly fiji) have always been very dynamic.
What complicates it even further is the fact NZ has huge FTA interests with China, which is a foreign policy goal of Australia also. But China putting too much of a toe in the pond will annoy other Pacific Island Forum nations which a) do want Fiji back in the fold as soon as they elections are completed ( and constitutional isses resolved amicably) and do include the interests of US and Japan who are like China are also dialouge partners.

The Biketawa Declaration a Chp VIII relevant document will of course be in play if trouble starts to emerge.
 

CJohn

Active Member
Stumbled across this article in Jane's recently.
It is the first I've heard of it, maybe some one else on the forum has more information on the possibility of aquiring a third OPV for the RNZN.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Stumbled across this article in Jane's recently.
It is the first I've heard of it, maybe some one else on the forum has more information on the possibility of aquiring a third OPV for the RNZN.
Sounds interesting and it would make sense to acquire a third OPV. It is a Lt Cdr doing the talking so can be deniable if need be. They'll have learned quite a few lessons with the two current OPVs, so if it is decided to take this beyond a what if, it'll be interesting to see what they come up with. With the money the NZG is investing in SATCOM capability SATCOM on the OPVs would have to be a given. I wouldn't also be surprised if some ISR capability, hasn't already or, will find it's aboard them.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Stumbled across this article in Jane's recently.
It is the first I've heard of it, maybe some one else on the forum has more information on the possibility of aquiring a third OPV for the RNZN.
This is a bit interesting for this to come out right now. There have been rumours for a few days, but with Janes on it that raises it a little.

There has always been chatter around needing the 3rd OPV - whether they the Navy were ever going to get it was very debatable. A DWP post 2020 was more along these lines and not DWP15 - there must have been a shift in thinking. I would guess they want greater Pacific presence which is lacking if that is the case.

Announced by a Lt Cdr at a conference. That worries me. A bit junior really. Was he talking out of school? Coleman is in Italy this week - stealing his thunder?

I wonder if there is confusion here. There has been an expectaion that the LWSV will also conduct a OPV role, because Manawanui and Resolution had too. That an OPV type design profile was on the cards?

Or is the Lt Cdr talking about when they replace the OPV - eventually they will get 3 hulls - like many years from now.

Is this going to be an orphan or will it be an improved Protector design using same engines/machinery etc?

Or will it be a new design with similarities to the LWSV though configured in a Patrol role where as the LWSV will be configured to its specialist role?

If the Govt can keep producing surpluses over the next few years this is doable.
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This is a bit interesting for this to come out right now. There have been rumours for a few days, but with Janes on it that raises it a little.

There has always been chatter around needing the 3rd OPV - whether they the Navy were ever going to get it was very debatable. A DWP post 2020 was more along these lines and not DWP15 - there must have been a shift in thinking. I would guess they want greater Pacific presence which is lacking if that is the case.

Announced by a Lt Cdr at a conference. That worries me. A bit junior really. Was he talking out of school? Coleman is in Italy this week - stealing his thunder?

I wonder if there is confusion here. There has been an expectaion that the LWSV will also conduct a OPV role, because Manawanui and Resolution had too. That an OPV type design profile was on the cards?

Or is the Lt Cdr talking about when they replace the OPV - eventually they will get 3 hulls - like many years from now.

Is this going to be an orphan or will it be an improved Protector design using same engines/machinery etc?

Or will it be a new design with similarities to the LWSV though configured in a Patrol role where as the LWSV will be configured to its specialist role?

If the Govt can keep producing surpluses over the next few years this is doable.
Good news if its true, buts its a very general article with no real specifics

With the reference to constabulary operations (I had to refresh my memory has to how far constabulary operations went) I wonder after looking at the recent frigate deployment the RNZN saw that with a few changes an OPV could carry out the same job, cheaper. I could be way off course in my thinking (seem to be doing a lot of that lately) and stretching the article. and stand to be corrected. Mr C also raises some interesting points on what the article may mean.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Interesting indeed considering the manning issues awhile back, defence saving scheme, project problems etc etc. Still not enough info to build a picture.

I too seem to think this may just be a pre-cursor to a combined role littoral already mooted and not actually an extra dedicated OPV or even worse if it was a dedicated OPV could be the future of our combat fleet and pave the way for the ANZAC replacements if considered good enough (by govt of course).
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Just an aside, is there anything a Protector class IPV can do that and OPV can't? With the crewing similarities operating costs would differ only in things such as fuel burn and I am not sure how much extra that would cost in the scheme of things.

Does anyone have a breakdown on costs IPV vs OPV in the RNZN?

Basically I am wondering if in future the RNZN dispenses with IPVs altogether and just buys additional OPVs, only deploying a helicopter as required.
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Just an aside, is there anything a Protector class IPV can do that and OPV can't? With the crewing similarities operating costs would differ only in things such as fuel burn and I am not sure how much extra that would cost in the scheme of things.

Does anyone have a breakdown on costs IPV vs OPV in the RNZN?

Basically I am wondering if in future the RNZN dispenses with IPVs altogether and just buys additional OPVs, only deploying a helicopter as required.
I'm not sure the Navy would get rid of all the IPV they have always been seen as a development tool for junior officers in ship handling (i.e coming alongside). This extract from the 2013 indicates that they seem to play the major role in EEZ activity:
The major NZDF contribution to National Maritime Coordination Centre (NMCC) tasking is the Inshore Patrol Vessels (IPVs), which were purchased directly to meet the inshore (out to 24 nautical miles) patrol requirement. (The IPVs are therefore an activated or delivered output as opposed to a retained or latent output such as land forces) A significant portion of the capacity of the Offshore Patrol Vessels is also available for NMCC tasks.
That said there was talk about a year ago regarding how the IPV were used (i.e. general patrol vs targeted patrolling) that potentially raises the issue of numbers.

The 2013 Annual Report shows operating expenditure of 60,345 million for 4 IPV and 64,233 for two OPV. That included Depreciation of 20,419 million and Capital Charge of 34,046 which was not broken down. So roughly speaking one OPV costs two IPV in running costs.

The depreciation and capital charge would be higher for the OPV and would affect the calculation significantly, but as the notes to the accounts don't go into detail about specific asset values its an unknown variable
 
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