Russian Air Force News & Discussion

[Klaus]

Can't find the article but a couples of months back I recall reading about Moscow giving the go-ahead to develop a new-gen lightweight fighter to complement PAK-FA. No specifics as I recall and my first impression it was a lifeline being tossed to keep MiG in business.

A light stealth fighter was also mentioned in a document shown to the public by Aleksandr Zelin last year. But there were several projects with doubtful status, so this doesn't mean that much.

What I don't understand is why there is a MiG-41 being developed when Sukhoi is trying to optimize the Su-35 for the interceptor role. Of course, Russia is worried about planned US hypersonic aircraft and wants some kind of weapon to counter them, but there are so many new aircraft in development already, I'm asking myself who is going to pay for all of this... And is there really a need for a new Su-25 version? Afaik the Su-34 is also armored and can carry a wide range of air-to-ground munitions, so couldn't they simply order more of them?

 

[Haavarla]

There exsist no new CAS program for Russia. There is only this:

Russia to Field New Ground Attack Jet | Defense | RIA Novosti

Its the same deal with Mig-41 program and Mig-35.
This has everything to do with allocated funding.
The Russian MoD has to pick a handfull program they want to complete.
Its called Priority.

The Mig-31BM with a handfull of A-50U will offer Interceptor mission and aid the Su-27SM/SM3/M2 fleet for the time being.

The odd 22 Su-35S is not in any serious service readyness yet, same deal with Su-30SM.


Talking about VVS as a Regional projected AF power. Totaly agree, but it might change in the future:

http://alexeyvvo.livejournal.com/39323.html

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/740459.html

It exist plans to induct upgraded Il-78 with PS90 engine, but the details is vauge..
If VVS can get enough modern tankers, they can reach any region on the globe. Until then..they are still confined to Regional borders.

 

[Klaus]

There exsist no new CAS program for Russia. There is only this:

Russia to Field New Ground Attack Jet | Defense | RIA Novosti

This is what I was referring to. IMHO a new Su-25 version is a waste of money as additional Su-34s and Ka-52s could also fulfill its role. By 2020 or even later the VVS will still have a dozen types of combat aircraft in its inventory. It makes one wonder if anybody has ever considered standardizing the equipment in order to be able to buy more of it.

 

[Haavarla]

I can only sumise the cheap production of new Su-25 as the only answer for VVS fixed wing CAS role. They will most likely come at a very favorable price.
VVS did have 14 Sq of Su-25. Not sure whats the inventory today..
VVS are quite familiar with the Su-25, its a sturdy and reliable jet, think they will use it past 2020.. my 2 cent.

 

[Feanor]

This is what I was referring to. IMHO a new Su-25 version is a waste of money as additional Su-34s and Ka-52s could also fulfill its role. By 2020 or even later the VVS will still have a dozen types of combat aircraft in its inventory. It makes one wonder if anybody has ever considered standardizing the equipment in order to be able to buy more of it.

Well it's either a new Su-25 or upgrades to the old fleet. It's not getting retired because the Su-34 was not intended for the CAS role. It's a strike fighter, whose CAS potential is limited by the lack of PGMs and trouble coordinating with ground troops. If Russia had the type of PGM CAS capability that the US had 10 years ago, the Su-25 could probably be replaced by Su-30SMs. As is, it's not getting replaced at all.

 

[mAIOR]

Well it's either a new Su-25 or upgrades to the old fleet. It's not getting retired because the Su-34 was not intended for the CAS role. It's a strike fighter, whose CAS potential is limited by the lack of PGMs and trouble coordinating with ground troops. If Russia had the type of PGM CAS capability that the US had 10 years ago, the Su-25 could probably be replaced by Su-30SMs. As is, it's not getting replaced at all.

Also, the su-25 cost to maintain and per flight hour should be much lower than the su-34. Imagine loosing a single su-34 to destroy an armoured column. How many tanks do you recon an su-34 needs to blow for it to be cost effective? I am surprise Russia isn't procuring a light strike platform like the super-tucano to conduct low level CAS missions. In their conflict on Georgia they wouldn't need anything else and those platforms are much cheaper to run than a jet.

 

[Klaus]

In the conflict with Georgia they lost several Su-25s due to their lack of modern sensors and guided missiles and bombs. In a scenario with strong enemy air defences the Su-25 would be vulnerable as it is slow and couldn't defend itself against enemy fighters. Even if some of these problems would be fixed, it would still be only an updated version of a 1970s design with a high RCS and extremely low top speed. And simply upgrading the existing fleet won't be a permanent solution. Their service life runs out by 2025 or so.

I'm also not sure whether a new Su-25 would be that cost-effective. They'd have to modernize the production facilities and the Su-34 also has a unit price of only about 45 mio. $. Even if the Su-34 wouldn't be an ideal solution, it's simply a financial question how many types of aircraft can be developed, produced and operated by Russia. There must be some reason (besides sequestration) why the US won't field a dedicated CAS aircraft any more, but rely on MRCA and attack helicopters.

 

[Haavarla]

The Su-25 might be slow, but its payload, range and speed are good compaired to Mi-28 and Ka-52 units.

 

[Klaus]

That's certainly true, but still it's also a financial question. If a new Su-25 variant will be built, only a limited number can be acquired. Training personnel and buying spares for yet another type will be costly, just as upgrade programs will be. As there is already an armed drone in development, it would simply be more cost-effective to spend all the money on that aircraft, as it would feature lower rcs and be destined for the same purpose.
And for fighting armed insurgents, let's say in the Caucasus or Central Asia, the Ka-52 and Su-34 might be sufficient. I don't want to say that the Su-25 is not a good ground attack aircraft, but it's the same as with the MiG-35, that is also quite capable, but not really needed, as the Su-35 and Su-30 can fulfill its role.

 

[alexkvaskov]

I think as they get better with PGMs and co-ordination in the coming years, they can wean off their dependence on the Su-25 with a combination of Su-30SM, Su-34, Ka-52 and longer range artillery.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I can only sumise the cheap production of new Su-25 as the only answer for VVS fixed wing CAS role. They will most likely come at a very favorable price.
VVS did have 14 Sq of Su-25. Not sure whats the inventory today..
VVS are quite familiar with the Su-25, its a sturdy and reliable jet, think they will use it past 2020.. my 2 cent.

New production Su-25? I thought the production line was in Tbilisi which has been closed some years ago.

 

[kato]

UUAZ in Ulan-Ude have a (closed) production line which they claim they could restart if demand requires it. Or at least they claimed that when it came up in connection with a possible government contract in 2010.

 

[Haavarla]

New production Su-25? I thought the production line was in Tbilisi which has been closed some years ago.

I think its the same situation as those Su-27sm3 and Mig-29smt. There was a surplus of airframe parts, and with a production line still going, its a logical approach by the Russian MoD.

 

[STURM]

What about the R-77s that we have seen on airshow aircrafts for 20 years ?

Do we know the official or unofficial reason why the R-77 has not entered into service yet ? This missile has been seen in airshows for altmost 25 years and I believe it has entered into service with some armies, e.g. India. So why not in Russia ??

Any R-77s that were seen at airshows were mock-ups. Can't remember which publication it was but I remember reading quite a few years ago that development of the R-77 had stalled. According to what I read it was only due to partial payments made by India and China - for a product that had yet to be fully developed - that enabled Vympel to finish development of the R-77.

An air arm that is confirmed to be an R-77 operator is the Royal Malaysian Air Force [RMAF]. About 2 years ago 35 missiles were ordered.

 

[Feanor]

Any R-77s that were seen at airshows were mock-ups. Can't remember which publication it was but I remember reading quite a few years ago that development of the R-77 had stalled. According to what I read it was only due to partial payments made by India and China - for a product that had yet to be fully developed - that enabled Vympel to finish development of the R-77.

An air arm that is confirmed to be an R-77 operator is the Royal Malaysian Air Force [RMAF]. About 2 years ago 35 missiles were ordered.

India has the R-77 but there were reported problems with it. I've seen reports of China having it. Other exports were done, but I'm not sure on the details. Russian Su-35S have been seen with the RVV-SD, which is another name for the R-77.

 

[STURM]

In the 1990's there was a bit of fuss about the R-77s; everyone assumed that it was ready for export and that Malaysia would be the first in South East Asia to have a so called 'fire & forget' BVR missile but in reality the R-77 was still under development. When Thailand ordered it's 8 F/A-18Ds [later canceled] the Thais said that they would be requesting AMRAAM as Malaysia had the R-77 and in a 1999 interview CINPAC, Dennis Blair, did with a local defence magazine [during Cobra Gold] he was asked about the R-77 and said it was not a threat and would not alter the regional balance of power: what he didn't say - or was probably unware off - was that R-77 was not ready for export!

The manufacturers of the R-77s seeker - the Agat Institute - claimed in the late 1990's that Malaysia would receive an improved version of the missile. As it turned out, despite being wired or R-77 and fitted with Phazotron N019, Malaysia's 6 single seat Fulcrums were never armed with R-77s, only Alamos and Archers. Does anyone know if R-77 can receive mid-course guidance updates via a data link?

Some stuff on the missile which came from Vympel -

 

[Klaus]

Mikhail Pogosyan has denied that UAC (and in particular MiG) is working on a light stealth fighter. Mikoyan is continuing work on the MiG-35 and the older MiG-29 versions, which will be upgraded with technology from the new MiG-35.
After having completed that program, Mikoyan plans to either develope a UAV or a new fighter, but this still has to be decided.

Mikhail Pogosyan: UAC is not developing a light fifth-generation fighter - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

Meanwhile, the aircraft of the VVS squadron deployed to Armenia are partially being overhauled and "modernized" (whatever this means) in Russia. So far, only a handful of the 16 MiG-29S and 4 MiG-29UB have undergone this program, but its completion is scheduled for 2016 already, according to Combat Aircraft magazine.

 

[Feanor]

Some news.

More MiG-29Ks are nearing handover, and a third Il-38N has been upgraded.

bmpd -
bmpd -

And it looks like the PAK-FA will get the new Himalayas EW station. It will be internally mounted, not a pod.

Lenta.ru:

 

[alexkvaskov]

Which missile does the Backfire currently carry? Is the Kh-22 still in service? Which modern air launched missiles that the VVS currently fields can be fitted? Personally I'm hoping the upgrade planned for the Backfire fleet includes an LGB capability.

 

[Feanor]

Which missile does the Backfire currently carry? Is the Kh-22 still in service? Which modern air launched missiles that the VVS currently fields can be fitted? Personally I'm hoping the upgrade planned for the Backfire fleet includes an LGB capability.

As far as I know the Kh-22 is the main one. Kh-15s might still be around. Those two would be the only ones right now. Though with the Tu-22M3M upgrade, they could end up carrying a lot more. Kh-32s were tested on the type.