NZDF General discussion thread

t68

Well-Known Member
So is RAAF 1Sqd still going to get all 24 SHs once all the growlers show up at 6Sqd from 2017? I thought that was the plan. Don't they come off their lease in 2021?

Possibilities Volk??? What do you have in mind? .
I was under the impression the Super Hornets were staying till they decided the makeup of the last couple off Squadrons, in other words F35 will replace legacy hornets first then Super Hornets. Then a manned/unmanned platform will be selected to replace Super Hornet.

A planned transition could in theory come in the shape of legacy hornets to get you started again I am lead to believe we still 71 airframes left in what condition these are in I don’t know but it is a mix of single seat (57) and two seat (18) as delivery start of the F35 A around 2018-20 instead of aircraft being decommission they move over to form the nucleus of your own fleet, until that happens RNZAF pilots can integrate and form part of the RAAF Squadrons

In the end I suspect to make it viable that 18 single seat and 6 two seat would be needed you would only need these aircraft in the rebuilding phase a max of ten years then once a core component of competent members have been through the initial return to capability it then comes down to either replacing with the Super Hornets or F35

If we can give our tactical lift aircraft away to Indonesia we can give our fighter to New Zealand to help regenerate the capability. Its not perfect but its a start.

There is another option the boneyard has a collection of aircraft that have been preserved and can return to service within 72 hours, obviously that won’t have latest enhancements but its food for thought.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B7VA4SOftY"]Today's Air Force: At the Boneyard - YouTube[/nomedia]
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
So is RAAF 1Sqd still going to get all 24 SHs once all the growlers show up at 6Sqd from 2017? I thought that was the plan. Don't they come off their lease in 2021?

Possibilities Volk??? What do you have in mind? .
Semi permanent deployment to NZ with a close working relationship between the two air forces including a larger than usual number of embedded exchange personnel from the RNZAF into the deployed 1 SQN element.

Could be done.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There are newer better options for frigates out there. CEAFAR etc is a game changer which could be integrated into any one of a number of current or proposed designs. New hull, new propulsion, lower crewing, and cost of ownership. Go new.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I was under the impression the Super Hornets were staying till they decided the makeup of the last couple off Squadrons, in other words F35 will replace legacy hornets first then Super Hornets. Then a manned/unmanned platform will be selected to replace Super Hornet.

A planned transition could in theory come in the shape of legacy hornets to get you started again I am lead to believe we still 71 airframes left in what condition these are in I don’t know but it is a mix of single seat (57) and two seat (18) as delivery start of the F35 A around 2018-20 instead of aircraft being decommission they move over to form the nucleus of your own fleet, until that happens RNZAF pilots can integrate and form part of the RAAF Squadrons

In the end I suspect to make it viable that 18 single seat and 6 two seat would be needed you would only need these aircraft in the rebuilding phase a max of ten years then once a core component of competent members have been through the initial return to capability it then comes down to either replacing with the Super Hornets or F35

If we can give our tactical lift aircraft away to Indonesia we can give our fighter to New Zealand to help regenerate the capability. Its not perfect but its a start.

There is another option the boneyard has a collection of aircraft that have been preserved and can return to service within 72 hours, obviously that won’t have latest enhancements but its food for thought.

Today's Air Force: At the Boneyard - YouTube
Sorry but legacy Hornets at the end of their life is wasting our time, resources and money. There is no point is having them as some form of ad-hoc transitional platform - they are a false start and a dead-end once they leave RAAF service. The idea has already been rejected as a policy proposal years ago when the current government was in opposition.

Recce outlined a concept towards a shared ANZAC Squadron - based around a potential RAAF retention of the Shornet and a partial NZ buy-in to retain and offset ADF costs on the platform, with a view to a possible short squadron either based in NZ, the whole joint squadron based in NZ or indeed Australia. Frankly it is either examining that blue skies scenario only or not at all - reheating old 3rd/4th Gen Boneyard Birds and trying to stand up a Sqd of F-16s/Grippens/FA-50s + OCU is not an option, has been done to death, too costly for capability and adds little to a post 2020 strategic environment in which the NZDF / ADF have to and will operate with far more synergy than before.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Sorry but legacy Hornets at the end of their life is wasting our time, resources and money. There is no point is having them as some form of ad-hoc transitional platform - they are a false start and a dead-end once they leave RAAF service. The idea has already been rejected as a policy proposal years ago when the current government was in opposition.

Recce outlined a concept towards a shared ANZAC Squadron - based around a potential RAAF retention of the Shornet and a partial NZ buy-in to retain and offset ADF costs on the platform, with a view to a possible short squadron either based in NZ, the whole joint squadron based in NZ or indeed Australia. Frankly it is either examining that blue skies scenario only or not at all - reheating old 3rd/4th Gen Boneyard Birds and trying to stand up a Sqd of F-16s/Grippens/FA-50s + OCU is not an option, has been done to death, too costly for capability and adds little to a post 2020 strategic environment in which the NZDF / ADF have to and will operate with far more synergy than before.
With that point of view then there is only one option available then, get in now with the RAAF program to transitions to F35 when our next order comes in for 14 aircraft if you want in put your own order in for4/ 6 aircraft then when RAAF follow on orders come you do the same. By doing it that way you can resolve your block obsolesce when aircraft are knackered you keep ordering in blocks of 4/6 aircraft at a time the production run for F35 is only just starting compared to Super Hornet with only a couple of years left.
 

aussienscale

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Verified Defense Pro
There is already a frigate version of the F100 the Norwegian Nansen Class, no need to redesign the wheel when someone's already done it for you.
Understand that, but Nansen Class is for totally different operating conditions and requirements so you would have to make changes regardless.

Agree Volk Type 23 would probably be a better way to go, but personally would like to see what the US could have coming :)
 

ngatimozart

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We've read the cheap wish list with the 24 grippens. But what would be the ideal set of capabilities. Never mind the budget and all that. What should the New Zealand defence force look like?.
This is my view of what the NZDF should like. Forget about the ACF - that's a long dead horse. We'll work on the principle of a fully integrated Amphibious Task Force as the core unit. This also presupposes annual NZDF funding on 2% GDP which is where it should be, plus the NZG supplying extra capital expenditure funding where needed to bring NZDF equipment up to the scale stated here.

RNZAF.
6 x P8. Yes a big ask but the aircraft has a lot of capabilities and we can work on that and improve our ISR capabilities. There is no valid reason why we can't become very proficient and expert in the realm of ISR. Volkodav suggests a squadron of P8s
Realistically it would be cheaper to expand the MPA fleet and increase the numbers and capability of the frigate fleet than to rebuild the ACF. Considering the distances involved, even if China established a forward base in a belligerent Fiji you would still be better off with a full squadron of P-8s and a squadron of four or five high end ANZAC replacements.
Where as I believe a mixed squadron of six P3K2s /P8s and six CN235MPAs would be ideal.
I was given cause to have a look at the CN235 MPA earlier this evening and I am thinking that maybe it would be more practical than the C295 MPA. The HC144 Ocean Sentry is a variant of the CN235 MPA but it lacks the weapons hardpoints and I think those could be important. IIRC it can carry the Exocet missile and the Mk 46 & Mk 48 torpedoes. If the aircraft was bought and the same tactical system installed as used in the Orions then it could be viable. The Mk 46 is already in use with the RNZAF, we don't need the Exocet but the aircraft could be fitted to take the Maverick and maybe the Penguin. So that way we are utilising already in use systems and weapons so it's basically the aircraft plus the surface search radar etc. If by chance should the RNZAF purchase the C295M as a tactical airlifter then there is some commonality.
If the CN235 is fitted out as I suggest above then we are not having a lot of expenditure on extra or new weapons. I do feel that with the way the P3K2 & P8 are going that we need extra aircraft to cover the MPA role as well as what Mr C calls the MPS role. Its not as if it's carrying weaponry on every mission, but if their is a requirement then the ability to is available. So six of these critters as well.
I can't remember who's idea this was, but it was suggested buying the P8s in 3 tranches and spreading the cost over a longer period of time. So maybe 2 in 2018, the next 2 in 2022 and the last 2 in 2026 for example.
6 x A400M with full AAR kit.
6 x C295
3 x KC30 MRTT.
The KC30 is a force multiplier and as such would be a valuable asset to add to any coalition force. The P8 should have the AAR capability as it's already on the Wedgetail. The A400M can also be refuelled by AAR. If such a facility can be added to the C295, CN235 and the NH90 then we gain greater use out of our assets at the same time extending their range. That's also why I've gone for an extra A400M, because the A400M can easily be fitted with a fuel tank in the hold for AAR. It already has built in pump and plumbing for AAR. So the A400M can be used for AAR with fast movers as well as helos. The KC30 for most things except helos. Also the KC30 has its other uses as well.
4 more NH90s. 8 is definitely not enough.
12 x AW159 Wildcats (+2 for spares). To be phased in gradually and replace the SH2G(I) as primary RNZN helo. The Seasprites can be used as ASW /ASuW back up and other roles until they are munted or sold.
5 more AW109LUH marinised, armed and armoured.

RNZN.
3 x F26 with pommy hulls and machinery, Danish shipboard systems, CEAFAR, CEAMOUNT & Saab CEC, 5" gun, Sea Ceptor, Aster 30 AA missiles. I wouldn't mind something like Harpoon but I think that might be a step to far for NZ. I would like to see the current Protector class OPVs and IPVs replaced with something like the Damen OPV 2400 or 2600 Offshore Patrol Vessel - Damen Shipyards Group or the Navantia BAM Buques de Acción Marítima (BAM) Class Patrol Vessels - Naval Technology The IPVs could be redeployed to the Reserve Divisions giving them each a ship with which their seagoing branches can train on and utilise, thus creating a pool of trained seagoing personnel.

Replace the Canterbury with 2 LPDs of around 13,000 tonnes with a minimum of 4 spots on the flight deck for NH90s. The second LPD could be partially fitted out as an aviation support vessel. The deck below the flight deck could be fitted out as a hangar and maintenance facility capable of stowing say 12 NH90 size helos. Leave the flight deck hanger where it is and position an elevator within it. The Endeavour is being replaced by the MPSC and the LWSC is supposed to be coming online by the end of the decade. Maybe need to look at a second MPSC later on.

NZ Army.
CD will know a lot more than I do as the Navy & Air Force are more my areas of interest. However I do think that the Army should have 2 infantry battalions, 1 shipboard, the second training and covering other requirements. The RNZA should be strengthened with self propelled 105mm howitzers as well as the current towed howitzers. Something like the CV90105 CV90105 but with the GIAT 105mm howitzer instead of 105mm rifled gun in the GIAT TML105 anti tank turret Army Guide - TML 105, Antitank turret. I don’t know about numbers but maybe 12. I think it is a mistake selling the 20 NZLAVs, because I am sure that viable uses could be found for these vehicles especially if NZDF funding is at 2% GDP. CD would know what to add to this list from an Army point of view.

The question was what is the ideal set of capabilities and I’ve listed it from an equipment point of view, in that what I feel is required to achieve the goal of putting ashore a viable force, be it for war or HADR. It has to have a good logistical tail and that is the main strength of my force structure. Having said that, it also has to have a good maritime presence, projection and protection. The troops on the ground need good fire support, both NGS and their own artillery. It also needs air assets that can be brought to bear, either in a fire support role, e.g., Wildcat and Seasprite as shipborne assets or fixed wing MPA; or logistical support through rotary wing and fixed wing. Finally what is needed to help ensure successful completion of missions or deployments is exceedingly good ISR capabilities and most importantly the ability to move high quality and quantities data up, down and across the command chain in real time so that it can be used to the maximum.
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
With that point of view then there is only one option available then, get in now with the RAAF program to transitions to F35 when our next order comes in for 14 aircraft if you want in put your own order in for4/ 6 aircraft then when RAAF follow on orders come you do the same. By doing it that way you can resolve your block obsolesce when aircraft are knackered you keep ordering in blocks of 4/6 aircraft at a time the production run for F35 is only just starting compared to Super Hornet with only a couple of years left.
I understand the intention is now to keep the 24 Shornets - 12 F+ wired and 12 unwired through until 2030ish at 1 Sqd and buy a further 12 Growlers for 2017/18 intro in 6Sqd. Thus the F35 is not the sole option the Shornet / Growler still has life unless I have missed a recent press release. An future partial pro-rata involvement NZDF still is a potential option in theory if mutual ADF/NZDF necessity arises.

Purely as an exploratory option of course - remember.
 
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t68

Well-Known Member
I understand the intention is now to keep the 24 Shornets - 12 F+ wired and 12 unwired through until 2030ish at 1 Sqd and buy a further 12 Growlers for 2017/18 intro in 6Sqd.
I believe that is now how it’s going to happen, can’t see RAAF ordering any more Rhinos unless the lightning program goes pear shaped big time, but I’ll never say we won’t either. The US Congress is about to buy additional Rhinos for pork barreling if what I have read the last few weeks is correct.

Thus the F35 is not the sole option the Shornet / Growler still has life unless I have missed a recent press release. An future partial pro-rata involvement NZDF still is a potential option in theory if mutual ADF/NZDF necessity arises.
I suppose when we have enough Lightning in the pool we could always hold onto the prewired jets and bring them up to speed and pass on the others. but long term for both the RAAF & RNZAF Lightning would be the better upgrade path with its Network-centric warfare ability as it will have a situational information advantage over other platforms.



Purely as an exploratory option of course - remember.
To true, would be interesting to see how it could be achieved though.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Norwegian requirements =/= NZ requirements, so some modifications will have to made in any case, can't imagine it'd be a whole lot easier to modify a design of a frigate they've never handled as opposed to modifying the design of a hull and superstructure which - Australia at least - is getting to be quite familiar with.
I honestly don't think we should go with the Aussies next time around, from what I understand we spent a lot on the ANZAC's but could have got a lot more bang for our buck if we have bought something off the shelf, even taking into account modules being built in NZ. We don't have the ability anymore so what benefits would we get tying ourselves to Australia?

If we replace the ANZAC's with a frigate I'd much rather we went with FREMM or TYPE 26. As I mentioned further up do really even need to go with a frigate, 5-6 large offshore patrol boats like the Holland Class would give us a lot more of what we need and that's patrol time at sea. Something like the Holland would be more than capable of showing the flag for piracy patrol.

We should have 6 P8's, these would be a much better piece of equipment to offer in any full scale emergency than under armed patrol frigates as we operate today.
 

Volkodav

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Verified Defense Pro
I honestly don't think we should go with the Aussies next time around, from what I understand we spent a lot on the ANZAC's but could have got a lot more bang for our buck if we have bought something off the shelf, even taking into account modules being built in NZ. We don't have the ability anymore so what benefits would we get tying ourselves to Australia?

If we replace the ANZAC's with a frigate I'd much rather we went with FREMM or TYPE 26. As I mentioned further up do really even need to go with a frigate, 5-6 large offshore patrol boats like the Holland Class would give us a lot more of what we need and that's patrol time at sea. Something like the Holland would be more than capable of showing the flag for piracy patrol.
Well NZ did do well industrially out of the project getting a 1/3 of the ANZ work share for only buying 1/5 of the platforms built. You got value for the money you spent and they are good ships for the spec. The question is should both navies have opted for something better and in hindsight the answer is yes.

Basically NZ only going for two instead of four hulls you would have been better off buying something bigger and better and Australia stuffing our FFG upgrade and delaying our DDG replacement left a gap that the ANZACs weren't up to filling. Neither is an issue with the platform but rather with the politics and priorities of the following governments. NZ would have no issue with either four good enough frigates or two top end frigates, the issue is you only bought two of the four you compromised on capability to afford. Australia's issue is we compromised on capability in favour of numbers as well on the assumption that we would also maintain numbers in the upper end, or Tier 1 (the ANZACs being out Tier 2) the issue is instead of only reducing our Tier 1 from 9 to 8 hulls we cut it to 4 and it will drop to 3 forcing us to spend years trying to upgrade the ANZACs to fill the gap.

Long story short, you planned to have 4 good enough frigates trading individual capability for the flexibility of numbers and then only bought half the fleet you needed. We bought the number of ANZACs we needed but then failed to top up our destroyers at on end and corvette at the other, forcing our ANZACs to be OPVs and primary surface combatants as well as patrol frigates instead of just patrol frigates as intended.

NZ expected the 2 ANZACs and a pair of OPVs to do the job of 4, we expected 8 ANZACs, 4 upgraded FFGs and 14 tinnies to do the job of 8 DDG, 8 ANZACs and 12 corvettes. I wonder why both navies have had issues?
 

old faithful

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I honestly don't think we should go with the Aussies next time around, from what I understand we spent a lot on the ANZAC's but could have got a lot more bang for our buck if we have bought something off the shelf, even taking into account modules being built in NZ. We don't have the ability anymore so what benefits would we get tying ourselves to Australia?

If we replace the ANZAC's with a frigate I'd much rather we went with FREMM or TYPE 26. As I mentioned further up do really even need to go with a frigate, 5-6 large offshore patrol boats like the Holland Class would give us a lot more of what we need and that's patrol time at sea. Something like the Holland would be more than capable of showing the flag for piracy patrol.

We should have 6 P8's, these would be a much better piece of equipment to offer in any full scale emergency than under armed patrol frigates as we operate today.
Rob, your question " do we even need to go with a frigate?"
My answer is yes.
I understand that NZ , like Australia, is focusing on a joint marinised force, so you could have 500+ troops embarked on future Canturbury, Endevour prtected by a OPV? No you need a frigate at the very least, give them naval arty support, some SAM protection etc as well as endurance.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Rob, your question " do we even need to go with a frigate?"
My answer is yes.
I understand that NZ , like Australia, is focusing on a joint marinised force, so you could have 500+ troops embarked on future Canturbury, Endevour prtected by a OPV? No you need a frigate at the very least, give them naval arty support, some SAM protection etc as well as endurance.
We would never be going it alone, we'd always be part of a coaliation, a big offshore patrol boat would have the legs, how often has naval artillary support been needed by NZ, you can always add CIWS to a patrol boat. A big patrol boat or even a Corvette would do the job for us and enable us to have more hulls on the water.

The Patrol Frigate version of the Legend Class Cutters look like a cost effective platform, around 500m a pop, we could have 3-4 at the price.



 

t68

Well-Known Member
We would never be going it alone, we'd always be part of a coaliation, a big offshore patrol boat would have the legs, how often has naval artillary support been needed by NZ, you can always add CIWS to a patrol boat. A big patrol boat or even a Corvette would do the job for us and enable us to have more hulls on the water.

The Patrol Frigate version of the Legend Class Cutters look like a cost effective platform, around 500m a pop, we could have 3-4 at the price.




That has a larger displacement than the Anzac's but the armaments can be upgraded to match the current fleet.I actually like the idea.
 

Volkodav

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Verified Defense Pro
Trouble is it would likely end up costing as much as FREMM or Type 26 without the same level of capability. Remember the ANZAC was a patrol frigate rather then the ASW / GP frigates Australia and NZ actually needed resulting in both nations upgrading them to be what they should have been to start with.
 

ameyread

New Member
One liners are not permitted. Please read the rules and contribute to.the disscussion
 
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ASSAIL

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That has a larger displacement than the Anzac's but the armaments can be upgraded to match the current fleet.I actually like the idea.
I read somewhere,can't find it now, maybe in the discussions around LCS? that these would be over $800m per unit once weapons and sensors are fitted, certainly not cheap and possibly around T26 figure plus.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I read somewhere,can't find it now, maybe in the discussions around LCS? that these would be over $800m per unit once weapons and sensors are fitted, certainly not cheap and possibly around T26 figure plus.
Yes I read somewhere that Bertholf went over budget not 100% sure if the follow on hulls went over budget as well.

I also heard that an unsolicited bid using the NSC as part of OCV with CEFAR as a national patrol frigate was submitted to the goverment some years ago.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Were/are the ANZACs actually that bad? In what context? Over their lives so far when have they needed either better weapons, sensors or space or has there actually been a real time conflict (not perceived) that they were outgunned, outmatched or even damaged during an engagement?

Would'nt even an original ANZAC be more than a match for anti-piracy, gulf escort duties or general patrolling. Now I'm all for a well equipped well rounded frigate (or any major ship really) and do believe in better gear is better prepared but when everyone starts bagging them from the start when in actual fact we have never even tested them in a real situation then what are we actually going off? brochures? experience? hear say?

In reality we are just quoting the biggest and baddest of everything and throwing it all into a platform in a race with our neighbours but then their actual real time tasks hardly, if ever require the use of a vast majority of said equipment and bar WWIII probably never will these days. Chances are something as simple as a fire in the galley or a well placed mine will do more damage.

Now I know they are not the best but I'm also sure they are not the worst as well so maybe some credit where credit is due. For what they are and what they've currently done are they actually as bad as some make out?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Were/are the ANZACs actually that bad? In what context? Over their lives so far when have they needed either better weapons, sensors or space or has there actually been a real time conflict (not perceived) that they were outgunned, outmatched or even damaged during an engagement?

Would'nt even an original ANZAC be more than a match for anti-piracy, gulf escort duties or general patrolling. Now I'm all for a well equipped well rounded frigate (or any major ship really) and do believe in better gear is better prepared but when everyone starts bagging them from the start when in actual fact we have never even tested them in a real situation then what are we actually going off? brochures? experience? hear say?

In reality we are just quoting the biggest and baddest of everything and throwing it all into a platform in a race with our neighbours but then their actual real time tasks hardly, if ever require the use of a vast majority of said equipment and bar WWIII probably never will these days. Chances are something as simple as a fire in the galley or a well placed mine will do more damage.

Now I know they are not the best but I'm also sure they are not the worst as well so maybe some credit where credit is due. For what they are and what they've currently done are they actually as bad as some make out?
ANZACs with CEAFAR are a potent vessel - there are a few who now think that a CEAFAR ANZAC should pick up the AWD role as in some areas they are regarded as superior
 
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