Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[ASSAIL]

There is an article in the Cantabria's facebook page https://www.facebook.com/BuqueA15Cantabria

Implying that negotiations are underway with the RAN for a repeat deployment in 2015. Any veracity in this report or has anyone heard anything?

 

[Volkodav]

There is an article in the Cantabria's facebook page https://www.facebook.com/BuqueA15Cantabria

Implying that negotiations are underway with the RAN for a repeat deployment in 2015. Any veracity in this report or has anyone heard anything?

If it is true I wonder if it has more to do with Sirius being unfit as a fleet tanker and unable to cover Successes' major availabilities that it does with any issues with Success herself.

 

[gf0012-aust]

If it is true I wonder if it has more to do with Sirius being unfit as a fleet tanker and unable to cover Successes' major availabilities that it does with any issues with Success herself.

AMPT10E is probably best placed to know.....

 

[Volkodav]

AMP10E is probably best placed to know.....

True, hopefully he is lurking and will be able to shed some light on this. It's just an impression I have that Success is old, shagged, expensive and difficult to maintain but still fit for purpose, while the shiny new Sirius has never been suitable and was basically a short sighted waste of time and money.

 

[gf0012-aust]

while the shiny new Sirius has never been suitable and was basically a short sighted waste of time and money.

a colleague refers to her as HMAS Woftam

 

[t68]

True, hopefully he is lurking and will be able to shed some light on this. It's just an impression I have that Success is old, shagged, expensive and difficult to maintain but still fit for purpose, while the shiny new Sirius has never been suitable and was basically a short sighted waste of time and money.

Don’t know about being a short sighted waste of money for the capability and the cost with conversion but then it’s no HMAS Westralia.

While I am not 100% sure I think GF was part of the negotiating for the current HMAS Sirius. I remember some time ago reading a behind the scene story on HMAS Sirius and how a civilian engineer moving on from the Anzac project to the fleet oiler project and at one stage we nearly lost the MT Delos if not for a Greek shipping tycoon who covered the Australian government as the funds were not released to buy the ship in time. I may be wrong but from what I remember and read and my limited knowledge of GF background in my mind it seemed to be him.

The said person I read about saw the program from start to finish including the RAS kit if not I apologies in advance to GF if I am wrong.

 

[the road runner]

Implying that negotiations are underway with the RAN for a repeat deployment in 2015. Any veracity in this report or has anyone heard anything?

Would be great to see her back in Sydney.It really is a very nice ship.I assume the RAN has learnt quiet a bit about the systems and operating procedures from the Spanish.Do you guys think she is the right ship for Australia? I assume the spanish have done the figures to support the Juan Carlos and other ships in the armada.

The Spanish armada seem to be in a bad financial way at the moment.

 

[mickm]

AIS and HMAS Darwin

Good Evening everyone. I have been a member for a few years but this is my first post. I really enjoy the subject knowledge most of you have regarding the RAN and all matters maritime.

I have recently discovered the Marine Traffic Web Site and I quite enjoy tracking various ships because I have a view of Geelong Port from my office and I like to see what ships are coming and going up Corio Bay.

I noticed today that HMAS Darwin has deployed to the MEAO and she is actually visible on the AIS tracking in Bass Straight near Wilson's Promontory. It is the first time I have noticed a RAN ship visible on the system. I would have thought this might be a security risk and I cannot find any other RAN ships on the Marine Traffic Site.

Do you think it might be a mistake and if not why can't we see other RAN ships on the system.

Thanks

 

[ASSAIL]

a colleague refers to her as HMAS Woftam

Well whatever utility she has been and is being well used over the last 12 months.
She's been up and down to the Far East and Resolute around Aust. on exercises and according to the RAN website, has had her busiest year to date. She's currently alongside in Darwin.
None of this relates to a fleet capable supply asset but at least she's not sitting idle and I think all (Navy/Govt) acknowledge she was only ever a short term solution.

I haven't heard or seen any info on how the RAN value the Cantabria apart from the usual diplomatic niceties but one of the Spanish articles (Europress I think) on facebook suggested that Navantia is a shoe in to build x 2 along the same lines as the LHD's. Speculation probably.

Chris

 

[Volkodav]

Well whatever utility she has been and is being well used over the last 12 months.
She's been up and down to the Far East and Resolute around Aust. on exercises and according to the RAN website, has had her busiest year to date. She's currently alongside in Darwin.
None of this relates to a fleet capable supply asset but at least she's not sitting idle and I think all (Navy/Govt) acknowledge she was only ever a short term solution.

I haven't heard or seen any info on how the RAN value the Cantabria apart from the usual diplomatic niceties but one of the Spanish articles (Europress I think) on facebook suggested that Navantia is a shoe in to build x 2 along the same lines as the LHD's. Speculation probably.

Chris

I really hope they don't go for a repeat of the LHD deal, we need the fabrication work hear now, without it we will end up costing ourselves more to rebuild our shipbuilding expertise, yet again than we will save by doing the lions share of the work off shore. Every time we buy something we could do here off shore we increase the proportion of the overheads that need to be absorbed by the projects we keep without even factoring in the valleys of death we create over and over again.

 

[ASSAIL]

I really hope they don't go for a repeat of the LHD deal, we need the fabrication work hear now, without it we will end up costing ourselves more to rebuild our shipbuilding expertise, yet again than we will save by doing the lions share of the work off shore. Every time we buy something we could do here off shore we increase the proportion of the overheads that need to be absorbed by the projects we keep without even factoring in the valleys of death we create over and over again.

I have a different view. Building large commercial/quasi commercial hulls at home is not efficient or cost effective and the money is better spent on specialized fighting ships. I think the RN got it right with the MARS project. You don't maintain the specialist systems skills with these ships.
There is enough demand for these specialized ships to fill the capacity of the local yards with Subs, LCH's, OCV's, 4th AWD and maybe a tranche of F100's with CEAFAR.
The caveat is, as always, will the govt order? If the answer is no, which yard do you sacrifice for system intergration? You either fit the ships out in Adelaide or in Melbourne having some modular construction everywhere. Where is the political advantage?
My hope is that they get on with the pending projects AND order the AO hulls overseas from either Spain or Korea.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The said person I read about saw the program from start to finish including the RAS kit if not I apologies in advance to GF if I am wrong.

Nah mate, not me, no direct involvement at all with Sirius. Worked with spanners and engineers who were involved with her lazarus though.

I'm sniping outside the range ring

 

[gf0012-aust]

have to say that my views of the spanish and sth korean capability have evolved over the last 3 years - probably because of being a bit more informed by people who've dealt with both

damn shame there is no silver bullet solution, although govts always think that there is and that they in all their wisdom know more about industry and successful capitalism than mere mortals.....

damn shame about faulkner and combet... one was a thinker and the other an engineer. so they at least had something behind them...

 

[ASSAIL]

have to say that my views of the spanish and sth korean capability have evolved over the last 3 years - probably because of being a bit more informed by people who've dealt with both

damn shame there is no silver bullet solution, although govts always think that there is and that they in all their wisdom know more about industry and successful capitalism than mere mortals.....

damn shame about faulkner and combet... one was a thinker and the other an engineer. so they at least had something behind them...

Tha'ts a bit cryptic gf. Your views evolved to where?

 

[swerve]

have to say that my views of the spanish and sth korean capability have evolved over the last 3 years ..

Positively or negatively?

 

[alexsa]

Don’t know about being a short sighted waste of money for the capability and the cost with conversion but then it’s no HMAS Westralia.

While I am not 100% sure I think GF was part of the negotiating for the current HMAS Sirius. I remember some time ago reading a behind the scene story on HMAS Sirius and how a civilian engineer moving on from the Anzac project to the fleet oiler project and at one stage we nearly lost the MT Delos if not for a Greek shipping tycoon who covered the Australian government as the funds were not released to buy the ship in time. I may be wrong but from what I remember and read and my limited knowledge of GF background in my mind it seemed to be him.

The said person I read about saw the program from start to finish including the RAS kit if not I apologies in advance to GF if I am wrong.

Not sure about the shipping tycoon story having legs. There was issue with how the ship would be purhased and operated before conversion and how this transaction would be managed.

 

[alexsa]

Positively or negatively?

Korean yards are currently building the words largest and most complex vessel in the Shelll FLNG. This is a 474m long barge essentially for the production and liquefaction of LNG. There is a possible follow on for 3 more that are larger (all headed to Australia).

They certainly have the building skills noting the design work is done all over the globe with a strong European input. Korea also built the EEE container vessels. Compared to shipyards in other counties aspiring to market dominance they are pretty good on average and build to a reasonable cost.

As always you need good oversight of the project but the own/operator needs to put that in place.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I really hope they don't go for a repeat of the LHD deal, we need the fabrication work hear now, without it we will end up costing ourselves more to rebuild our shipbuilding expertise, yet again than we will save by doing the lions share of the work off shore. Every time we buy something we could do here off shore we increase the proportion of the overheads that need to be absorbed by the projects we keep without even factoring in the valleys of death we create over and over again.

Rebuilding expertise? I think the governments moves on the Automotive manufacturing is a clear sign they want Australia to get out of manufacturing, period.

I wouldn't be surprised to see all overseas builds from now on. If the government has a problem with say $500 million in tax breaks, incentives etc for a much bigger industry that is more viable (Toyota makes money and Ford and holden have in recent history), I don't have much hope for the ship building industry.

Automotive manufacturing was one of those strategic war industries. You could convert the whole thing to making something else. It had the volume so you had 10,000 skilled metal workers, or 1,000 engineers, or 50 high speed milling machines and an industry to keep them going. Just because they made cars, didn't matter, the US proved you could convert them. Alan Mulally spelt it pretty clear that is not just about Auto, it about manufacturing.

There's no point in welding up hulls if you don't have anything else that is part of the equation.

We might as well get our ships made in Thailand or Korea because that is where our manufacturing, parts and logistics are. In fact our defence should be based around securing these two countries.

 

[RobWilliams]

I think the RN got it right with the MARS project. You don't maintain the specialist systems skills with these ships.

Just gunna chip in, the UK has the requirement for complex warship building to remain in house and these didn't count so it was felt these were fine for awarding overseas. All 4 37,000t ships will be handed over at 6 month intervals starting Oct 2015 and ending April 2017. Time from first steel cut to launch is ~10 months, all for ~750mn AUD.

 

[Volkodav]

Rebuilding expertise? I think the governments moves on the Automotive manufacturing is a clear sign they want Australia to get out of manufacturing, period.

I wouldn't be surprised to see all overseas builds from now on. If the government has a problem with say $500 million in tax breaks, incentives etc for a much bigger industry that is more viable (Toyota makes money and Ford and holden have in recent history), I don't have much hope for the ship building industry.

Automotive manufacturing was one of those strategic war industries. You could convert the whole thing to making something else. It had the volume so you had 10,000 skilled metal workers, or 1,000 engineers, or 50 high speed milling machines and an industry to keep them going. Just because they made cars, didn't matter, the US proved you could convert them. Alan Mulally spelt it pretty clear that is not just about Auto, it about manufacturing.

There's no point in welding up hulls if you don't have anything else that is part of the equation.

We might as well get our ships made in Thailand or Korea because that is where our manufacturing, parts and logistics are. In fact our defence should be based around securing these two countries.

I actually think it has a lot more to do with killing unions and cutting Labors financial lifeline than many think. There is definitely a disproportionate number of white collar non technical people in parliament but the over arching thing seems to be to subsidize, protect and support non unionized sectors and starve unionized ones. Very short sighted but the UK went through similar under Thatcher.