Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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John Newman

The Bunker Group
I am under no illusion that we will get nuclear powered submarines. But I believe we lost a best chance under former Prime Minister John Howard, but it’s most likely an evolved Collins will get up but a clean sheet design with US/UK/Jap/Aus input is not out of the question either.. If I was involved with the program I would build 3 new Collins with Japanese Propulsion that would most likely gives us a bit more breathing space to complete a new design which would be collaboration between AU/US/JAP/CAN yep Canada will need to replace the Upholders as well
Sort of along the lines of your suggestion to build 3 new Collins with Japanese propulsion, the article in The Australian, is suggesting that Japan might be involved in extending the life of the Collins:

It has also been suggested that Japan might be asked to provide technology to help extend the lives of the six Collins-class boats.

That would take the pressure off development of the replacement class of submarines for the Royal Australian Navy and reduce the likelihood of a "capability gap" if the Collins-class subs reach the end of their lives before the 12 new submarines are ready.
That might be the way to go (or part of it anyway), that keeps Collins going till the replacement design is ready.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Sort of along the lines of your suggestion to build 3 new Collins with Japanese propulsion, the article in The Australian, is suggesting that Japan might be involved in extending the life of the Collins:

That might be the way to go (or part of it anyway), that keeps Collins going till the replacement design is ready.
There are 3 models under consideration

1) maintain Collins until they cark it till newbuild arrives
2) extend (and upgrade) Collins so as to provide a bigger window until newbuild arrives
3) bite the bullet and get new build asap and bugger maintaining Collins re major upgrades
 

t68

Well-Known Member
There are 3 models under consideration

1) maintain Collins until they cark it till newbuild arrives
2) extend (and upgrade) Collins so as to provide a bigger window until newbuild arrives
3) bite the bullet and get new build asap and bugger maintaining Collins re major upgrades
In your professional opinion what would be the best solution?

Can the current submarine last till a clean sheet design is signed of and test in a tank?

I know it's not as simple as it sounds but what if we build the US boat minus the nuclear section would it down scale like Collins was up scaled ?
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Let me put the UK/US vs choice in contrast using my wholly uninformed opinion for you.

If you were looking at the two boats side by side with just the one thing, put your credit card down for *1* boat, and assuming that six boats was six times as expensive as 1 boat..Mm..well...gosh..decisions, decisions...mmm..

If you were looking at the two boats with a solid look at what was feasible, how much it'd cost you, how much support you'd get and what it'd be worth to the Australian voter..

"VIRGINIA"!!!

The actual technical package isn't so relevant is what I'm saying.
 

hairyman

Active Member
Whichever they decide on I hope they dont take too long making the decision. They need to be working on the design shortly.
WHen the last AWD is completed at Adelaide, which should now be 2019?, they should be in a position to start work on the new class immediately. The second of class should be commissioned about the time Collins is due to be decommissioned. That would give us a fleet of 7 submarines throughout the replacement period.:coffee
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
In your professional opinion what would be the best solution?
IMO and certainly leaving out the "professional" bit - I think re-doing the drivetrain will give us extra oxygen while we make a decision on new builds


Can the current submarine last till a clean sheet design is signed of and test in a tank?
the current subs are up to the job, unfort it's the chattering idiots in the media and pseudo defence commentariat who make them out to be diving duds. Hence why the talking heads have zero credibility in a number of circles.....

I know it's not as simple as it sounds but what if we build the US boat minus the nuclear section would it down scale like Collins was up scaled ?
If we were to dumb down the debate and exclude any constraints and the realpolitik that accompanies defence debate in this country - then yes, my personal preference would be a re-drivetrained Virginia.

I think both Abe and I have alluded to tech that I've seen and that he's aware of where you could juice up a large sub and give her capabilities way beyond current conventionals but not travelling the nuke path. The tech is available here and now and has been used in mules for almost 5 years.

I don't subscribe to the small sub or mixed type (long range deep bluewater and blue/grey water models).

If you look at a lot of the half witted commentary coming out of the media they all seem to think that subs are about range and thus small subs with AIP can fulfill the task.

Hell, you can turn a mercedes vito into a rally support truck, that doesn't mean that its the best way forward.....
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Just read on another forum that the RAN is repainting all ships Haze Grey beginning during normal maintenance next year.
True or false?
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I have a long memory.
Selecting non US suppliers always should be done with the full memory of what happened during the Vietnam War. European (including UK) governments refused to supply parts and ammunition to Australia for critical systems due to their unhappiness with our involvement with that war. Including refusing to supply 1000ib bombs that tha Canberra was dropping in Vietnam. Other than UK I can recall Sweden, France, and Switzerland imposing weapons support/resupply sanctions.
No one has imposed more weapons supply and maintenance bans on other countries than the USA has. No one has more stringent requirements on use than the USA.

Also in relation to the VietNam War the one problem with the Swedish Carl Gustav embargo was down to a failing of the Australian acquisition contracting. We signed a contract to buy the weapons with a clause only for use in defending Australia from attack. The Swedes would have sold them with a contract for use anywhere but since we didn’t they were within their rights to insist that they not be used in VietNam as it was an overseas deployment. Even if under the collective defence aegis of SEATO.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
There are 3 models under consideration

1) maintain Collins until they cark it till newbuild arrives
2) extend (and upgrade) Collins so as to provide a bigger window until newbuild arrives
3) bite the bullet and get new build asap and bugger maintaining Collins re major upgrades
Thinking about those three models, model 1 would probably carry the least risk (and presumably cost). If as has been pointed out, the current Collins are up to the job and are capable of having their service lives extended, I would think that might be pretty high on the list.

I find model 2 interesting, when you say 'extend and upgrade', can I assume you are probably talking about installing Japanese engines and power generation on top of the other maintenance and upgrade work that would be required anyway?

Whilst this would appear to carry more risk than model 1, it also seems to me it could also be seen and used as a 'stepping stone' in evolving the current design to the replacement 'evolved' Collins, I suppose it would also come down to the time (and cost) involved in getting them back in service before a replacement is ready to build.

Then of course there is model 3, obviously a decision still has to be made on which one of the two remaining options is selected, evolved Collins or a new design, considering the current Government appears to be putting the issue of submarines as high defence priority, I'm wondering how long it is going to take to get to the point where they could be ready to start construction?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I find model 2 interesting, when you say 'extend and upgrade', can I assume you are probably talking about installing Japanese engines and power generation on top of the other maintenance and upgrade work that would be required anyway?

Whilst this would appear to carry more risk than model 1, it also seems to me it could also be seen and used as a 'stepping stone' in evolving the current design to the replacement 'evolved' Collins, I suppose it would also come down to the time (and cost) involved in getting them back in service before a replacement is ready to build.
the above is my preference as there's still lots of life left in the old girls. unfort what it requires is commitment from prev, curr and future govts to step back from the politics and honestly attend to maintaining - and in the case of the prev Govt, treating Defence budget like a raiding opportunity to prop up other obligations.... It would allow us to wait longer for other techs to mature which are under consideration.

It would also require Govt to divorce itself and be clinical about options rather than become an open door to lobbyists and industry raiding parties pushing models which are more about industry benefit than capability benefit.

It also means switching off from the halfwit commentary in the broader press - they already ignore the looney bloggers, so we should extend some gratitude to those bloggers and more hysterical web sites as thye've already shot themselves in the foot, so no additional help is needed. :)

Then of course there is model 3, obviously a decision still has to be made on which one of the two remaining options is selected, evolved Collins or a new design, considering the current Government appears to be putting the issue of submarines as high defence priority, I'm wondering how long it is going to take to get to the point where they could be ready to start construction?
depends on who you speak to, but the brutal reality is that someone should have shut that door and cemented 90% of the decision a few years back.

unfort what we'll see is a variation of what happened with the prev Govt where Libs treated subs as an opportunity sport to hook into Govt. I would expect that now that they've had proper briefings they will change their attitude but you will now see Lab defending (what I see as) their prev indefensible behaviour and a failure to acknowledge that it was buggered on their watch

Of course this all hinges on how and whether Govt acknowledges that procurement is stuck in a mobius strip due to the governance constraints imposed upon the agencies and that until they change the ratio of projects that can get through the gate reviews to available projects then all projects will continue to suffer.

meanwhile the moron element will continue to blame the internal Divisions for the failings of procurement rather than have a proper understanding of the procurement model in the first place.

DMO, CDG and CIOG are in this mess because of the constraints imposed by the regulations and approval cycles - and sometimes by central agency problems where passed over execs decide that its their opportunity to make others bleed so as to send a message about the depth and reach of their own power......

I've attended a gate review where a senior inquisitor (in rank not age) asked a 2 Star RADM what C4ISR was. At that point you know that you're in for a hiding.

/rant off :)
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
the above is my preference as there's still lots of life left in the old girls.
Agree. its not is if they've had continuous service up until recently so their hulls should be in very good nick, their management systems are being replaced and their combat systems are new.
Fix up the back end and Bob's your uncle.
 

CB90

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
No one has imposed more weapons supply and maintenance bans on other countries than the USA has. No one has more stringent requirements on use than the USA.
Maybe. Even probably. Though the US is also probably the biggest exporter?

And though I have no comprehensive research on the history of US defense export/support bans, I would guess that most such bans are to the folks we've sold stuff to...where we get somewhat upset with their subsequent actions and instability: Iraq, Egypt, etc. Or there were concerns about them having a history of trying to reverse engineer the stuff we sell them. Or a history of not properly securing sensitive technology.

Painting with a broad brush, trusting the ability to address all those concerns is why UK/CAN/AUS access is basically only limited by money. And these days...only AUS seems to be willing to spend real money...as does the rest of that region.

The Swedish contract issue for Carl Gustav's sounds like a cop out. Given Sweden's intense and vocal opposition to the war, even if the contract authorized overseas deployments, I'm pretty sure breaking a contract for follow on support would have been inevitable.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Painting with a broad brush, trusting the ability to address all those concerns is why UK/CAN/AUS access is basically only limited by money. And these days...only AUS seems to be willing to spend real money...as does the rest of that region.
Nope. Australia, the UK, Canada etc are just as bound by ITAR restrictions as anyone else. The US doesn't stop us buying stuff, but we still have to use their equipment exactly the way they tell us to use it. Even when the restrictions don't make any sense. The restrictions are far more stringent than that of equipment bought from anyone else.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Maybe. Even probably. Though the US is also probably the biggest exporter?

And though I have no comprehensive research on the history of US defense export/support bans, I would guess that most such bans are to the folks we've sold stuff to...where we get somewhat upset with their subsequent actions and instability: Iraq, Egypt, etc. Or there were concerns about them having a history of trying to reverse engineer the stuff we sell them. Or a history of not properly securing sensitive technology.

Painting with a broad brush, trusting the ability to address all those concerns is why UK/CAN/AUS access is basically only limited by money. And these days...only AUS seems to be willing to spend real money...as does the rest of that region.

The Swedish contract issue for Carl Gustav's sounds like a cop out. Given Sweden's intense and vocal opposition to the war, even if the contract authorized overseas deployments, I'm pretty sure breaking a contract for follow on support would have been inevitable.
I am not sure but I believe we had a supply agreement in place with Sweden for other munitions (including 7.62x51mm) that they honoured and continued to supply.
 

rjtjrt

Member
The potential issue with buying stuff from Europeans in future is what they would do if we were to support US in a confrontation with China. I do not think such a confrontation is likely, but it is a contingency that is considered.
I can easily see France, and other European governments, stopping supply and or support for weapons systems so as to curry favour with China (with a side benefit of pissing off USA).
As for Raven22's point, at least US is up front. In the instances in Vietnam war we were blindsided.
 
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CB90

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Nope. Australia, the UK, Canada etc are just as bound by ITAR restrictions as anyone else. The US doesn't stop us buying stuff, but we still have to use their equipment exactly the way they tell us to use it. Even when the restrictions don't make any sense. The restrictions are far more stringent than that of equipment bought from anyone else.
Interesting. I wasn't suggesting that Five Eyes sales are free and clear of any restrictions, but any particularly dumb ones that you can share without violating OPSEC? I'm aware of some regulatory restrictions like inspectors verifying X is still attached to Y and no unauthorized resale/technology transfers, but I wouldn't know of restrictions on operational use.

MTCR is another regulatory mess with some implementations that are mind boggling, so I'm certainly not going to say DSCA and State (with "help" from Congress) aren't capable of screwing it up.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting. I wasn't suggesting that Five Eyes sales are free and clear of any restrictions, but any particularly dumb ones that you can share without violating OPSEC? I'm aware of some regulatory restrictions like inspectors verifying X is still attached to Y and no unauthorized resale/technology transfers, but I wouldn't know of restrictions on operational use.

MTCR is another regulatory mess with some implementations that are mind boggling, so I'm certainly not going to say DSCA and State (with "help" from Congress) aren't capable of screwing it up.

I've been directly involved with half a dozen ITARs issues and been signatory to docs. Breaches are not worth doing as the penalties are severe. I have fond memories of sitting in room negotiating on some issues with "Wookie" in the room and seeing the US uniforms continually glancing over to the suit from State seeking his approval before some things were discussed.

I'd have to say that even so, dealing with State is still easier than dealing with some other countries where they extol the virtues of their supposed flexibility.

I've been involved in procurement, maint and disposal, and even though there are precise guidelines on how and what we can do, they are at least clear in message and intent.

I've done the job on the contractor side as well as G side
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Something which I have been wondering for some time is how worthwhile it would be for the RAN to commission a vessel like HMAS Stalwart again?

It has been my understanding that part of the reason why Stalwart was decom'ed without a direct replacement is that the incoming Adelaide-class FFG's could be more easily maintained alongside than from a tender. However, with dock space in FBE starting to become a premium commodity and the (unfortunately) consistent flogging that RAN vessels seem to get, would a tender make sense?

Also, given the competition with the mining sector, as well as the degree which RAN technical services have been cut back and outsourced in the name of 'efficicieny' would the RAN be able to crew a tender like HMAS Stalwart, as well as the current RAN vessels and posts?

Lastly, if it was felt to be worthwhile and viable, what sort of capabilities should be included?

-Cheers
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Something which I have been wondering for some time is how worthwhile it would be for the RAN to commission a vessel like HMAS Stalwart again?

It has been my understanding that part of the reason why Stalwart was decom'ed without a direct replacement is that the incoming Adelaide-class FFG's could be more easily maintained alongside than from a tender. However, with dock space in FBE starting to become a premium commodity and the (unfortunately) consistent flogging that RAN vessels seem to get, would a tender make sense?

Also, given the competition with the mining sector, as well as the degree which RAN technical services have been cut back and outsourced in the name of 'efficicieny' would the RAN be able to crew a tender like HMAS Stalwart, as well as the current RAN vessels and posts?

Lastly, if it was felt to be worthwhile and viable, what sort of capabilities should be included?

-Cheers
My immediate reaction would be "not feasible".
Firstly, I believe all sustainment (maintenance) is contracted to either Thales, BAE or ASC or some other companies that I am unaware of.
Secondly, the level of current engineering competence has declined in the uniforms to a point where much of the work would be beyond the skill set.

I have a good mate who's last job before retirement was the WO Artificer i/c of the FMU (Fleet Maintenance Unit) borne in Stalwart. Ships would come alongside to complete their Assisted Maintenance Periods )AMP's and the whole spectrum of tasks were completed from total machinery rebuilds to manufacture of specialist parts to simple lagging fitting etc.
I'm sure much of Stalwart's existence was to take work away from the unionised dockyard and increase efficiency.

Aren't we glad that the HMAS Nirimba closed :(

OTOH, your point about extra berthing could be more cheaply accomplished with a finger jetty on the eastern side at building 215. Let the goog burghers of Potts Point howl:p:
 
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