Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[MrConservative]

For DNB and the future fleet I see four options:

• 1. Status quo - do nothing
• 2. Expand the facilities - enlarge dry dock & wharves
• 3. Base part of the fleet elsewhere - but to where?
• 4. Relocate the Naval base - to where?

I think that the DNB issue is going to have to be faced one day whether it be because of a fleet of larger ships or because of pressure from the nimbys who live in the area, or a combination of both.

Sell Devonport - its is worth a fortune if converted to residential housing for yuppies. Whangarei would be my pick as Port North has plenty of space for future development. Land is cheap. Build a new drydock and purpose built Naval facility for this century. The North could do with the economic injection.

 

[John Newman]

Sell Devonport - its is worth a fortune if converted to residential housing for yuppies. Whangarei would be my pick as Port North has plenty of space for future development. Land is cheap. Build a new drydock and purpose built Naval facility for this century. The North could do with the economic injection.

Here's a nice Google Maps shot of the Devonport base, zoom in and you will see that quiet a lot of the Kiwi fleet is tied up in the photo, also shows the dry dock.

https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=d...=TmyZUrT4JoS-kQWtkoHwDA&sqi=2&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg

Yes would certainly be prime waterfront real estate if redeveloped!


A question, if starting from scratch on a 'green field' site, what would be more appropriate a dry dock or a ship lift?

If land is cheap as you suggest, instead of building a dry dock that only one large vessel or multiple smaller vessels could occupy, would a ship lift with larger hard stand areas where multiple larger ships could be moved to be a better option?

I was thinking along the lines of Techport in South Australia which has the capacity to both enlarge the ship lift and also the hard stand areas too, have a look at the link below, view it full screen, its a short video of possible future expansion of Techport (I put this link up on the RAN thread a while ago when a discussion on shipbuilding was going on).

Australia

Sure the RNZN may not use a 'new' site for ship building, but a ship lift with multiple hard stand areas to allow for all forms of maintenance might be a good idea.

Interested in your thoughts, dry dock vs ship lift.

 

[Adzze]

Sell Devonport - its is worth a fortune if converted to residential housing for yuppies. Whangarei would be my pick as Port North has plenty of space for future development. Land is cheap. Build a new drydock and purpose built Naval facility for this century. The North could do with the economic injection.

Port Whangarei is an interesting proposal. It also looks like it is an idea with a bit of history.

I see a business coalition attempted to entice NZG to relocate the base and sell Devonport land back in 2000, but the then-Clark government rejected the idea on the basis that the Naval community there was pretty much invested in the location and - by implication - it would be onerous to expect them all to move to Whangarei.

She may have actually had a point there. I recall not long ago there was a Crown Research Institute whose scientists were talking of looking for other jobs rather than being relocated to (I think) Canterbury, from Otago. While there might be excellent economic reasons to relocate Devonport, the personnel aspect would have to be handled with care.

 

[ASSAIL]

Interested in your thoughts, dry dock vs ship lift.

Ship lifts are very expensive to operate and their advantage lies in being able to service multiple hulls. There are white boat lifters in Florida with 100 plus parking bays. The business model relies on continuous and multiple use.
They must remain in survey, wires changed every few years, large pieces of steel dipping in salt water and the track system surveyed and maintained. Trolley wheels are a nightmare to keep in serviceable condition requiring constant bearing changes. However, they are able to launch new builds as per Techport SA. They are in vogue though!

I would imagine that unless NZ is running a commercial enterprise in conjunction with the naval dockyard, a graving dock is the cheapest and most simple option with a slipway as an additional asset for the smaller units (as is the current arrangement at Devonport).
Chris

 

[MrConservative]

Here's a nice Google Maps shot of the Devonport base, zoom in and you will see that quiet a lot of the Kiwi fleet is tied up in the photo, also shows the dry dock.

https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=d...=TmyZUrT4JoS-kQWtkoHwDA&sqi=2&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg

Yes would certainly be prime waterfront real estate if redeveloped!


A question, if starting from scratch on a 'green field' site, what would be more appropriate a dry dock or a ship lift?

If land is cheap as you suggest, instead of building a dry dock that only one large vessel or multiple smaller vessels could occupy, would a ship lift with larger hard stand areas where multiple larger ships could be moved to be a better option?

I was thinking along the lines of Techport in South Australia which has the capacity to both enlarge the ship lift and also the hard stand areas too, have a look at the link below, view it full screen, its a short video of possible future expansion of Techport (I put this link up on the RAN thread a while ago when a discussion on shipbuilding was going on).

Australia

Sure the RNZN may not use a 'new' site for ship building, but a ship lift with multiple hard stand areas to allow for all forms of maintenance might be a good idea.

Interested in your thoughts, dry dock vs ship lift.

Very impressive video John. Shiplift or drydock would all come down to the business case. I take it that shiplift which, I have not really given much thought tbh, would be the more expensive option. Would it be fiscally sustainable with a small fleet size and no existing shipbuilding industry? I have not studied the merits of an alternative such as shiplift so would be reluctant to make a call. But ones innate conservatism would tend to a drydock facility as a default position.

A green fields site for a Naval Base within Whangarei Harbour was something we discussed a few years ago here on DT as the idea has floated around a bit. The issue of a new base would be that it must be substantially revenue neutral. That means the proceeds from the sale of Devonport NB would have to fund the development of the greenfield site as part of its business case.

The average property prices around the Stanley Point Rd area which is where DNB is located is comfortably over the 1 million mark and amongst the highest in the country. It is not all that easy to get to and buying or renting privately in the area is no fun on Navy salaries.

 

[ngatimozart]

Port Whangarei is an interesting proposal. It also looks like it is an idea with a bit of history.

I see a business coalition attempted to entice NZG to relocate the base and sell Devonport land back in 2000, but the then-Clark government rejected the idea on the basis that the Naval community there was pretty much invested in the location and - by implication - it would be onerous to expect them all to move to Whangarei.

She may have actually had a point there. I recall not long ago there was a Crown Research Institute whose scientists were talking of looking for other jobs rather than being relocated to (I think) Canterbury, from Otago. While there might be excellent economic reasons to relocate Devonport, the personnel aspect would have to be handled with care.

I think that given current accomodation costs etc., in Auckland that it may not be such a difficult proposition. Whether Whangarei would be an acceptable option to the jolly jacks is another story. It would have to be somewhere that non serving working partners can obtain employment. I sometime think that the Marlborough Sounds by Picton would be a good spot but land prices along the shore there aren't exactly cheap. Also there would be a lot of resistance to it from some locals around the environmental aspects. One just has to remember the Tranz Rail fast ferries and the Tory Channel. One of my other alternatives would be Lyttelton Harbour but that would require very major and expensive development and most likely would have to be over by Diamond Harbour.

 

[MrConservative]

I think that given current accomodation costs etc., in Auckland that it may not be such a difficult proposition. Whether Whangarei would be an acceptable option to the jolly jacks is another story. It would have to be somewhere that non serving working partners can obtain employment. I sometime think that the Marlborough Sounds by Picton would be a good spot but land prices along the shore there aren't exactly cheap. Also there would be a lot of resistance to it from some locals around the environmental aspects. One just has to remember the Tranz Rail fast ferries and the Tory Channel. One of my other alternatives would be Lyttelton Harbour but that would require very major and expensive development and most likely would have to be over by Diamond Harbour.

The issue with Whangarei is indeed the problem around partner employment. The North traditionally has had labour constraints and lack of career opportunities. Maybe if Shane Jones can get the Mining he wants up that way then things might take off. There is also an argument to be had that a Base shift could be an economic stimulant and perception changer. The region does have its good points - beaches, great fishing and diving, lower housing costs, still close to Auckland, regular airport link, reasonable weather and Whangarei is not as bad as it is made out to be and the Harbour has good access to the open sea.

 

[ngatimozart]

Defining a ''Multi-role Amphibious Sealift & Support'' vessel in the Kiwi context?

Well I am not talking about single a vessel that does everything including AOR as AOR is part of the next Endeavours enhanced logistical role and that project is locked in and a CY replacement is a flow on. Secondly and this is a point that people need to digest we do not need a vessel which will sealift and then amphibious assault with a whole 550 strong CTAG shebang and then supply it all in one big hit. Nor am I asking for one. The full monty Tawara style assault first over the beaches with the RNZN next generation CY leading the charge is just not going to happen and planners at the coalition level have no expectation of NZ needing to do this or frankly wanting us to do this. Nor do we want to or plan to either. So that excludes any LHD, LHA or what ever the USN classification maybe. On the other hand a vanilla supply and transport ship does not have the role flexibility to be effective and more events happen and evolve within operational context than simple ship and shore. There nuances that are to be considered within the lense of NZ amphib ops in which approach has evolved since the 1990s.

Thus what are the likely scenarios for us? Well in NZ's case you go to the Rulebook we follow. NZDF providing military assistance beyond its borders under UN Chp VI and Chp VII mandates. HumSupt ops viz disaster relief, SASO et al at the Chp VI level or associated context through to the graduated build up of personnel and equipment in situ of a Peace Enforcement Mission at Chp VII level. The lift and mobility of forces at the CTAG level does not and cannot work in any way other than in the graduated approach and this is evolving within the NZDF context with the JATF / F35 outlook and has done so since Timor. Our amphibious sealift and support within the JATF remit is a package that comes with the E replacement underway, the LWSV and the results of the air mobility study.

So a simple definition. Exactly what the CY does but with an increased capacity to sealift a LTG of around 250 plus extra surge accommodation in austere mode (the Evac role or the unexpected requirement of lifting a further rifle company), a proportional yet undramatic increase in lane meters and stores - but as I noted above a whole CTAG sealift and assault operation is not a goer. Plus the obvious like well dock which should have been in the current CY concept from day one, better self protection is obvious, C2 suite, level 2 medical, and significantly as this is the real emphasis - an increased aviation capability - particularly with respect to flight deck tempo level than the traditional small - medium sized LPD's or RoRo sealifters like the CY. Minimum of three landing spots - but frankly anymore than four is pointless. Flight deck able to handle a visiting CH-53 / Chinook, NH90 and a Seasprite with concurrency. Lastly improved patrol characteristics as effectively that will be a fair share of any future CY replacements tasking outside of a directed mission. Therefore a multi-role vessel, amphibious, sealift and support ship.

One of the real world advantages of better aviation capacity in an amphibious support role was displayed very recently when the JMSDF deployed to assist in the Philippines typhoon disaster response. A very likely scenario that the NZDF will be engaged with in decades ahead. One of the immediate response multipliers was the ability to operate rotary assets off the spacious flight deck at higher tasking tempos due to the increased emphasis the Japanese have put on flight deck space and ops. Saved lives and got supplies and personnel to more locations faster as well as also being able to simultaneously conduct SAR and Medivac. A substantive advantage over the traditional box LPD designs with truncated 2 spot aft flight decks. It is for this reason that a design revolution has happened in recent years as lessons learned with designs and case studies from fairly much all the large naval architectural firms.

Sounds like we have a similar song sheet, just different phraseology. I use the LPH as a starter and I agree we don't need to cart 500+ CTAG around. 300 in austere accommodation is about right and I do think that they did get one or two things on CY right. However I do think that when we design & build the CY replacement, MOTS may not be the best option and now having the experience with CY, we'll need to have a really good look at whats being used elsewhere and how other people do things and work from there. A four spot flight deck is essential plus the abilty to hangar four NH90s or equivalent. It should also be able to lillypad a chook, MV22 or CH53K. If I was able to choose armament I'd mount a 5" gun on the foc'sle or a Oto Melera 76mm one if we use those on the OPVs / Light Patrol Frigates, fitted for Sea Ceptor and of course .50 cals.

 

[Adzze]

I think that given current accomodation costs etc., in Auckland that it may not be such a difficult proposition. Whether Whangarei would be an acceptable option to the jolly jacks is another story. It would have to be somewhere that non serving working partners can obtain employment. I sometime think that the Marlborough Sounds by Picton would be a good spot but land prices along the shore there aren't exactly cheap. Also there would be a lot of resistance to it from some locals around the environmental aspects. One just has to remember the Tranz Rail fast ferries and the Tory Channel. One of my other alternatives would be Lyttelton Harbour but that would require very major and expensive development and most likely would have to be over by Diamond Harbour.

Whangarei does have the advantage of having a local marine engineering and ship building industry (I also note that some components of the ANZAC programme, as well as IPV construction took place there). It's conceivable that the presence of a Naval base would could at least support the local industries during lean times as well as offer some potential savings for the government through public-private maintenance agreements. It might also offer compelling incentives for moving some Ports of Auckland container operations to the area.

 

[MrConservative]

Whangarei does have the advantage of having a local marine engineering and ship building industry (I also note that some components of the ANZAC programme, as well as IPV construction took place there). It's conceivable that the presence of a Naval base would could at least support the local industries during lean times as well as offer some potential savings for the government through public-private maintenance agreements. It might also offer compelling incentives for moving some Ports of Auckland container operations to the area.

Whangarei shipbuilding has closed down.

 

[Lucasnz]

Remember its not just DNB that would have to move Kauri Point would also have to be a consideration along with the impact on Whangaparaoa and RNZAF Whenuapai.

Chart NZ5215 indicates the Channel dredged to 7.6 metres upto Whangarei Harbour at Marsden Point the depth is around 14 metres. Endeavours full draft is 7.6 metres. Picton would impose too many restrictions unless you built away from Picton and even Lyttelton has limitations once you start looking at the online charts. Wellington might be the best bet.

 

[John Newman]

Very impressive video John. Shiplift or drydock would all come down to the business case. I take it that shiplift which, I have not really given much thought tbh, would be the more expensive option. Would it be fiscally sustainable with a small fleet size and no existing shipbuilding industry? I have not studied the merits of an alternative such as shiplift so would be reluctant to make a call. But ones innate conservatism would tend to a drydock facility as a default position.

A green fields site for a Naval Base within Whangarei Harbour was something we discussed a few years ago here on DT as the idea has floated around a bit. The issue of a new base would be that it must be substantially revenue neutral. That means the proceeds from the sale of Devonport NB would have to fund the development of the greenfield site as part of its business case.

The average property prices around the Stanley Point Rd area which is where DNB is located is comfortably over the 1 million mark and amongst the highest in the country. It is not all that easy to get to and buying or renting privately in the area is no fun on Navy salaries.

Mr C and Chris (Assail), thank you both for your comments, both make a lot of sense.

Obviously a ship lift and associated hard stands are probably more flexible than a dry dock in that it is possible for multiple ships to be serviced at the one time, but it would no doubt come down to the economic viability of such a set up, ongoing maintenance of a ship lift (as Chris pointed out) is also a major factor too.

So my next question is, if the replacements for Canterbury and Endeavour are much larger than can be handled by the existing dry dock at Devonport, can it be enlarged or is it economically viable to enlarge?

Is there a 'commercial' facility in NZ that could handle the docking of large ships? If not, then I suppose the NZ Government would have to look overseas for the times when those ships needed to be docked for maintenance or upgrade work.

No doubt there are facilities throughout Asia where the work could be done, or would the NZ Government feel more 'comfortable' if work that required docking on it's Navy ships be done across the ditch here in Australia, for example the Captain Cook Dock in Sydney or indeed if Techport was expanded.

 

[Lucasnz]

Have a look at this on the littoral warfare support vessel

 

[Volkodav]

Why not wait until you see what comes of the rumoured offshore resource projects as the new fleet base and support facilities could be co-located and even shared in part with facilities built to support the exploitation of resources. Kill two (or more) birds with one stone, fleet is strategically located to protect and support the projects, service spouses have access to gainful employment, you have economy of scale to support a ship lift or floating dock that services a large hard stand.

 

[chis73]

Have a look at this on the littoral warfare support vessel

Crikey, that's a huge ship (compared to what we have had previously). A big BZ to those guys for putting the effort in to work out a design. Glad to see the homework being done on this one. Another great find - cheers Lucasnz.

I'd suggest whomever is presenting this one to cabinet might want to take along one of those portable defibrillator thingees though.

I'll even suggest a name for this vessel. How about HMNZS Tohora (Maori for whale, generally the Southern Right Whale)? Usually found south of 45 degrees latitude, and apparently owner of the largest testicles in the animal kingdom. Seems entirely appropriate!

Chis 73

 

[kiwi in exile]

Have a look at this on the littoral warfare support vessel

This looks impressive, but there are a couple of things that bug me about the design.

There is no hangar for the helicopter. To me this suggests that this design will not be able to operate an organic helo, and will just serve as a lillypad for other vessels helos. While this may not be an issue if the canterbury or it's replacement was on the scene, would this always be the case? Although I do like that it is shown with an (navalised?) nh90.

Also, it seems lightly armed for something that is going to be part of our deployable combat forces. people have expressed concerns about the armaments of our OPV's and they have 25mm, and are tasked with EEZ. This boat is intended to go into hostile places, yet from what I see it only has 50 cals.

Cheers

 

[ngatimozart]

This looks impressive, but there are a couple of things that bug me about the design.

There is no hangar for the helicopter. To me this suggests that this design will not be able to operate an organic helo, and will just serve as a lillypad for other vessels helos. While this may not be an issue if the canterbury or it's replacement was on the scene, would this always be the case? Although I do like that it is shown with an (navalised?) nh90.

Also, it seems lightly armed for something that is going to be part of our deployable combat forces. people have expressed concerns about the armaments of our OPV's and they have 25mm, and are tasked with EEZ. This boat is intended to go into hostile places, yet from what I see it only has 50 cals.

Cheers

This was done before the RFI was released. The RFI calls for .50 cal armament so that part is per RFI and I have issues with that. IMHO it should have a min 25mm auto gun on the focsle although I'd prefer something heavier along the lines of a 76mm gun and at least one 25mm cannon facing aft. Maybe fitted for but not with Sea Ceptor as well. I also have issues with the helo. Where they have flight deck, it would be subject to spray and green water coming over the bow, especially in roughers, so not a good place even to tie the helo down. As you've already mentioned no hangar and that is part of the RFI. If it was me I'd move the bridge structure forward and put the hangar and flight deck on 01 deck behind the bridge similar to the Protector OPVs. That way you can still access the the quarter deck at 1 deck level with overhead cranes etc. I'd also look at putting a trapdoor in the flight deck so you could drop ISO TEU boxes onto 1 deck. The flight deck would have to be rated for the NH90 but if it could lillypad a chook even better. I'd look at a 2 helo hangar - say take two NH90 if possible. May not need that capability but would be handy because extra space can be used for other things if not needed to roost a second parafin parrot. The ship outlined in the RFI looks to be around the 3000+ tonnes in size so probably a bit smaller than current ANZAC Class FFH.

 

[kiwi in exile]

Thanks for the comments. I like the double helo idea, and have thought that this would be a good idea for our ANZAC IIs. I'm not suggesting that we buy more helos, just that we have the ability in future to operate 2 x helos or a helo and a VTOL UAV from our ships. I like the idea of UAV's as persistent ISR for our amphib forces.

 

[Lucasnz]

Having read through some of the commentary in the report, draft will be a significant limiting factor in size, in addition there are significant costs associated with ice strengthening so the vessel may not be as big as suggested. The report also states the vessel will only operate low risk environments or under escort and never in an NBC environment. I think we might have a problem with the escort part.

I would have thought that a 25mm would be a given, as least, however I'm not so concerned about the helicopter. If we added that to the LWSV that would give up 7 vessels with helicopter capability and not enough Sea Sprites to maintain and sustain the other 6 vessels.

I'm seriously beginning to wonder if we're trying to do too much with one vessel. A couple of Batch 2 OPV might be a better option, given they're looking at a displacement of over 4,000 tonnes in that design.

 

[ngatimozart]

Having read through some of the commentary in the report, draft will be a significant limiting factor in size, in addition there are significant costs associated with ice strengthening so the vessel may not be as big as suggested. The report also states the vessel will only operate low risk environments or under escort and never in an NBC environment. I think we might have a problem with the escort part.

I would have thought that a 25mm would be a given, as least, however I'm not so concerned about the helicopter. If we added that to the LWSV that would give up 7 vessels with helicopter capability and not enough Sea Sprites to maintain and sustain the other 6 vessels.

I'm seriously beginning to wonder if we're trying to do too much with one vessel. A couple of Batch 2 OPV might be a better option, given they're looking at a displacement of over 4,000 tonnes in that design.

Well something to remember. The 2012 report by Stringer et al., was submitted as an assessment work towards an engineering degree approximately 12 months before NZ MoD released its RFI for a LWSC. Therefore it could be that they have made educated guesses on what a NZ RFI would stipulate. Secondly, I have gone through their references and note that they cite NZBR 45 and NZBR 2170 but neither of those are listed in the references - naughty. So did they actually read both the NZBRs or did they just pick the titles off the web? I'd be a picky about the hydrographic requirements probably going for GPSS rather than DGPS and also would want a platform mounted laser survey positioning system as well.