NZDF General discussion thread

[40 deg south]

Just came across the Defence Minister's speech to the Defence Industry Association on 13 November. A fair bit of standard blather, but also some bits worth looking at. A press release was issued simultaneously, but the speech has a more info.

JONATHAN COLEMAN MP for Northcote - JONATHAN COLEMAN MP for Northcote

In terms of progress on the Defence Capability Plan, contract negotiations are well underway for the ANZAC Frigate Systems Upgrade project, which will upgrade HMNZS Te Mana and Te Kaha’s self-defence and sensor capabilities, keeping the ships up to date with current technology and allowing them to stay in service at the sharp end of our Navy until the end of the 2020s.

Contract negotiations are also underway for the Pilot Training Capability project, which will purchase new dedicated advanced pilot training aircraft for the RNZAF. These new aircraft, a flight simulator and ground-based training devices will deliver a safer and more effective pilot training system for the Air Force.

A $113m contract was signed with Rheinmetall-MAN in April for the purchase of 200 new trucks for the Army, and the first production batch has arrived in Auckland recently. These trucks represent a huge step forward in technology, safety and protection from the current fleet of old Unimog and Mercedes trucks. This contract is also a great example of cost-effective procurement, achieved by purchasing the trucks off the same production line as the UK.

A $242m contract was signed with Kaman Aerospace in May for the purchase of eight upgraded Seasprite naval helicopters, and two spare airframes. These helicopters will provide increased naval aviation availability, improve maritime surveillance and search capability. The first three aircraft are due to be transferred from the Kaman facility in Connecticut to New Zealand in early 2015, with the full complement of eight helicopters scheduled to be in RNZAF service during 2016.

Upgrades of our C-130 Hercules and P-3 Orion aircraft continue, with three upgraded C-130s and four upgraded P-3s being introduced into service. These upgrade programmes will allow both fleets to remain effective and in service into the 2020s

We already new the self-defence component of the ANZAC upgrades was well advanced, thanks to that media release from MDBA about Sea Ceptor.

If contract negotiations are underway for pilot training aircraft, the preferred platform has been selected and they are haggling over price and conditions.

The Kaman delivery date is, from memory, further back than when the deal was originally made public. I wonder if that is being driven by the amount of time needed to bring the aircraft out of storage, or in order to manage NZDF cash flows?

Both the C130 and P3 fleets to remain in service 'into the 2020s'. No surprise around the P3, but I think previous indications were that the C130 fleet wouldn't go much beyond 2020.

Finally, there is clearly going to be some sort of multi-year funding injection into Vote Defence in the 2013 Budget. Mind you, as 2013 an election year it is unknown how much will be delivered outside the initial year.

 

[ngatimozart]

Just came across the Defence Minister's speech to the Defence Industry Association on 13 November. A fair bit of standard blather, but also some bits worth looking at. A press release was issued simultaneously, but the speech has a more info.

JONATHAN COLEMAN MP for Northcote - JONATHAN COLEMAN MP for Northcote

Yep recce put the link up to the Ministerial site a week or so ago.

We already new the self-defence component of the ANZAC upgrades was well advanced, thanks to that media release from MDBA about Sea Ceptor.

If contract negotiations are underway for pilot training aircraft, the preferred platform has been selected and they are haggling over price and conditions.

I posted on the RNZAF thread the other day that I'd read that the decision announcement is supposed to be the end of this year. I'm also wondering if the announcement will be made after the Parliament recesses for it's summer break.

The Kaman delivery date is, from memory, further back than when the deal was originally made public. I wonder if that is being driven by the amount of time needed to bring the aircraft out of storage, or in order to manage NZDF cash flows?

It maybe, but also could be to allow time for the RNZAF to bed in the A109 Mako and NH90 Warriors before they start on the new Seasprites. I'd presume that they'd go through the HTU (Helicopter Transition Unit) process, or similar, that the Mako and Warriors did.

Both the C130 and P3 fleets to remain in service 'into the 2020s'. No surprise around the P3, but I think previous indications were that the C130 fleet wouldn't go much beyond 2020.

Finally, there is clearly going to be some sort of multi-year funding injection into Vote Defence in the 2013 Budget. Mind you, as 2013 an election year it is unknown how much will be delivered outside the initial year.

I think you maybe are a bit positive the Defence Mid-Point Rebalancing Review (DMRR). I deem it most important because it has the potential to bring positive and realistic funding and resourcing stability to NZDF over long time periods, but at the same time it also has the potential to do the most harm to NZDF, because the funding could result being negative over time and NZDF loses capability. However, I do have my doubts about it and Robert Ayson sums it up nicely when he say's that the govt will have to write a big cheque for defence and historically that is a rare occurrence in NZ. An injection of funds for the NZDF? | The Strategist Secondly what happens when there is a change of colour on the treasury benches? If the DMRR turns out to be a good thing for NZDF then what are its chances of surviving changes of govt? Based on the current opposition parties I would suggest very little.

 

[MrConservative]

I see Ayson is pushing his corvette meme again later in that article.

Might be a brilliant idea if we could somehow shift the whole country a lot closer to everyone else, find a way to support a lot more hulls in taskings, somehow get the near frigate capabilities he wants anyway squeezed into a smaller hull at price commensurate to hull size and turn back everybody else's geo-strategic clock 20 years. Top effort Bob keep rubbing that magic lamp.

 

[ngatimozart]

I see Ayson is pushing his corvette meme again later in that article.

Might be a brilliant idea if we could somehow shift the whole country a lot closer to everyone else, find a way to support a lot more hulls in taskings, somehow get the near frigate capabilities he wants anyway squeezed into a smaller hull at price commensurate to hull size and turn back everybody else's geo-strategic clock 20 years. Top effort Bob keep rubbing that magic lamp.

Actually a combined frigate / corvette (OPV) force is not a silly idea. If you operate say 3 x Absalon and 3 - 5 OPVs / Corvettes of around 3000 tonnes fitted out properly, using something like a Stanflex modular concept, you have a fairly good force structure. You put 76mm Oto-Melera guns (interchangeable with 30mm auto cannon) on the OPVs, a reasonable ASW component, and the Sea Ceptor thats something that's not far short of the current RNZN FFH capability at top end of OPV capability. You don't have to fit all the weapons and sensors on all the OPVs all the time, so you save by say only buying 2 - 3 x 76mm guns etc. You could also deploy an Absalon OPV combination with the Absalon providing extra victualling, fuel support for the OPV if needed.

The Danes built their two Absalons for 330 million euros, which is about U$448 million at the moment. Factor in, at a rough guess inflation and currency fluctuations, we could possible acquire 3 Absalons for roughly US$750 million. Thing is we don't have to buy all three at the same time. Get one before 2020 to bring frigate numbers up to 3, then spread the next two out having one ready when Te Kaha is due to be paid off. That also gets us out of the frigate block obscelence trap. Same with suggested OPVs - spread them out a bit acquisition wise. However as I said earlier it all depends on the DMRR and the pollies that come later. Those are the critical factors.

 

[MrConservative]

Absalons are not considered frigates by the Danes. Unless you are meaning the Danish Iver Huitfeldt class on which it was based from.

I do not regard the Absalon as plausible future ANZAC replacement as I also do not think traditionally sized Corvettes are as well - the Iver Huitfeldt class is another matter. That the Absalon can do peacetime Frigate work must not be confused with what a modern full spectrum frigate has to be able to do and survive when a high intensity situation arises. This wider region has serious players with serious capability

A future vessel/hull design concept similar to the Danes Iver Huitfeldt & Absalon could be an interesting approach for the RNZN. Two-three full spectrum surface combatants complemented with a further two to three lower speced vessels utilising modular systems for 2nd tier and support roles, sharing as much as possible COTS to save costs - yet one type can actually has the distinction that it can deal with the sharp end.

 

[ngatimozart]

Absalons are not considered frigates by the Danes. Unless you are meaning the Danish Iver Huitfeldt class on which it was based from.

I do not regard the Absalon as plausible future ANZAC replacement as I also do not think traditionally sized Corvettes are as well - the Iver Huitfeldt class is another matter. That the Absalon can do peacetime Frigate work must not be confused with what a modern full spectrum frigate has to be able to do and survive when a high intensity situation arises. This wider region has serious players with serious capability

A future vessel/hull design concept similar to the Danes Iver Huitfeldt & Absalon could be an interesting approach for the RNZN. Two-three full spectrum surface combatants complemented with a further two to three lower speced vessels utilising modular systems for 2nd tier and support roles, sharing as much as possible COTS to save costs - yet one type can actually has the distinction that it can deal with the sharp end.

I've replied to this here on the RNZN thread

 

[40 deg south]

Yep recce put the link up to the Ministerial site a week or so ago.

Pretty sure recce put up a link to the press release, which didn't have as much detail as the speech.

Agree that the delaying the Seasprites until 2015 could be a work scheduling issue for RNZAF. I hadn't thought of this, but very plausible.

I'm positive about the DMRR because it shows the current government has finally realised that funding major capital projects out of internal cost savings simply isn't possible. I am sure the 2014 Budget won't propose funding on a scale you would be satisfied with, but anything would be an improvement on the current spending freeze.

I have no idea about how a future government would fund defence. Since we don't know which combination of parties will be sitting on the Treasury benches a year from now, there isn't much point worrying about it.

 

[Shanesworld]

This book is an excellent read and a must have when dealing with NZ acquisition policies during the 1990's and early 2000's It can be downloaded from the Australian National University for free: Greener P, 2009: Timing Is Everything in pdf or epub format. If you want a hard copy then it costs AU$19.95.

Whilst it covers a period since past it does give insights to the political side of kiwi defence procurement. I would argue not much has changed since, aside from the actors.

Hi Ngati,
Apologies didnt mean to snob this forum, just busy with work.

Yeah I remember reading this back a while and it highlighted the overriding political nature of these decisions (to be expected I guess) rather than sort of practical imperatives. Reinforces how sweet the F-16 deal was but irony of the other competing interests really made it a hard sell. Best ACF opportunity at the worst time.

 

[Ocean1Curse]

Global hawk would probably be the best purchase as it is cheaper to operate than the P-3 and can cover a larger area. New Zealand should aim to be able to do an East Timor like invasion, That would a good goal to set. Global hawk could even perform close air support.[/QUOTE]

Huh? Global hawks performing CAS missions lolfftopic:. Sorry I had to say it.

 

[ngatimozart]

Global hawk would probably be the best purchase as it is cheaper to operate than the P-3 and can cover a larger area. New Zealand should aim to be able to do an East Timor like invasion, That would a good goal to set. Global hawk could even perform close air support.

Huh? Global hawks performing CAS missions lolfftopic:. Sorry I had to say it.

Why Global Hawks for maritime patrol when BAMS is specifically designed for that and to work with the P8? We can't undertake an east Timor like invasion alone because we simply doin't have the personnel. I know us Kiwis are real good but even we aren't that brilliant.

 

[Ocean1Curse]

Why Global Hawks for maritime patrol when BAMS is specifically designed for that and to work with the P8? We can't undertake an east Timor like invasion alone because we simply doin't have the personnel. I know us Kiwis are real good but even we aren't that brilliant.

My post came out all wrong. I was responding to what some one had posted on page 1. Besides that. How would a global hawk fare against a bird strike. Or hurricane winds. Not good, so I hear. In an article some years ago. A global hawk pilot was basically saying. It's a wast of money sending them up when conditions aren't perfect.

 

[ngatimozart]

My post came out all wrong. I was responding to what some one had posted on page 1. Besides that. How would a global hawk fare against a bird strike. Or hurricane winds. Not good, so I hear. In an article some years ago. A global hawk pilot was basically saying. It's a wast of money sending them up when conditions aren't perfect.

Well bird strikes tend to ruin most aircrafts days especially if they are injested by an engine. Very few aircraft fly in hurricane winds. Aircraft are not designed to withstand all the forces involved in hurricane force winds and weather. There are old pilots, there are bold pilots but there are no old and bold pilots. If you quote or cite an article like you have please try and provide a reference or a link to it. people liketo know sources.

 

[RegR]

Was'nt aware we invaded East Timor? Must have missed that one aye fullas

 

[Ocean1Curse]

Well bird strikes tend to ruin most aircrafts days especially if they are injested by an engine. Very few aircraft fly in hurricane winds. Aircraft are not designed to withstand all the forces involved in hurricane force winds and weather. There are old pilots, there are bold pilots but there are no old and bold pilots. If you quote or cite an article like you have please try and provide a reference or a link to it. people liketo know sources.

Well bird strikes tend to ruin most aircrafts days especially if they are injested by an engine. Very few aircraft fly in hurricane winds. Aircraft are not designed to withstand all the forces involved in hurricane force winds and weather. There are old pilots, there are bold pilots but there are no old and bold pilots. If you quote or cite an article like you have please try and provide a reference or a link to it. people liketo know sources.

Yes, "source quotes". *shakes his head in approval*

Just a friendly reminder as a new poster. Could you offer us a little more than a one liner from now on. It may pay to check out the DefenceTalk posting rules. One line comments are fairly much frowned upon by us Mods as we encourage posters to develop further topical discussion by giving reasons and examples.

Cheers MrC

 

[Ocean1Curse]

While reading through the Otago Daily times dated sat, 7 dec 2013. I came across an article titled Amanda first army female commander. I've tried looking around and can find no real reference to other army female commanders except for a female US navy destroyer captain?. Is Amanda the first female battalion commander in New Zealand?. Or the world. Either way, I seem to be strangely impressed.

 

[ASSAIL]

While reading through the Otago Daily times dated sat, 7 dec 2013. I came across an article titled Amanda first army female commander. I've tried looking around and can find no real reference to other army female commanders except for a female US navy destroyer captain?. Is Amanda the first female battalion commander in New Zealand?. Or the world. Either way, I seem to be strangely impressed.

Many modern navies have female ship's Captains of various rank. Apart from the US and from what I can think of with no research, The RN has a current frigate CO and the RAN has a current Captain as CO of HMAS Success, a Commander in the ACPB force, a recent FFH CO etc.
This is nothing unusual or new considering that 20% of the RAN is female and I believe that % is higher amongst the commissioned officers.

 

[Cadredave]

While reading through the Otago Daily times dated sat, 7 dec 2013. I came across an article titled Amanda first army female commander. I've tried looking around and can find no real reference to other army female commanders except for a female US navy destroyer captain?. Is Amanda the first female battalion commander in New Zealand?. Or the world. Either way, I seem to be strangely impressed.

First off
Lt Col Amanda Brosnan is a very good operator her career in the regular force was Royal Corp of Signals followed by a very active career in Intelligence corp.

There is a major difference between Operational Infantry Battalion CO's and Reserve Force she will never deploy as a CO as her previous career has not given her the ground work to be a RNZIR CO on Operations. She however can prepare her soldiers to deploy with the two RF battalions which is what the reserves are now there for as feeder units for individuals or if time permits section replacements to the two RF units.

I say well done Ma'am Onward.

CD

 

[ASSAIL]

Sorry folks, I saw Otago and Female Commander and ran off in auto thinking it was navy.
Read the post, read the post....
Chris

 

[MrConservative]

Sorry folks, I saw Otago and Female Commander and ran off in auto thinking it was navy.
Read the post, read the post....
Chris

This young Lass has a future ahead of her. Not quite the Otago or a Frigate Driver yet but she is heading in the right direction.

First woman ship captain in NZ Navy - National News | TVNZ

 

[ngatimozart]

This young Lass has a future ahead of her. Not quite the Otago or a Frigate Driver yet but she is heading in the right direction.

First woman ship captain in NZ Navy - National News | TVNZ

Yep and the current CO HMNZS Endeavour is Commander Sandra Walker, RNZN.
RNZN - CO's Backgrounder