Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
David Johnson is now our Minister of Defence. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? From memory he did not set the world on fire as opposition defence spokesman.
I would say arguably bad, given his performance as opposition spokesperson and his tendency to listen to the "crazies" rather than Defence Professionals, however there appears to be quite a significant difference between being Opposition Defence Shadow Minister and looking to take potshots against the Government of the day and being the actual Minister, once briefed up behind closed doors, with defence and ultimately responsible for Defence outcomes at the end of the day.

Time will tell, but I get the feeling Defmin Johnson will turn out okay. Not sure if he will be brilliant, but he might be good enough...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Time will tell, but I get the feeling Defmin Johnson will turn out okay. Not sure if he will be brilliant, but he might be good enough...
I was in some degree of fear and trepidation when he was commenting about subs about 6 months ago, but his recent responses smell of someone whi has been briefed and learnt something

so, thats a god thing.

its when they hold the line rather than listen that always makes me nervous
 

protoplasm

Active Member
I was in some degree of fear and trepidation when he was commenting about subs about 6 months ago, but his recent responses smell of someone whi has been briefed and learnt something

so, thats a god thing.

its when they hold the line rather than listen that always makes me nervous
A Defmin who listens and learns is a good thing, GF do you get the impression that he is likely to be able to influence Treasury and PM with his new learning?
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I've got short odds on Netherlands Kardel ending up in Brazil, they've been spending a fair bit on updating their navy and are on the list of interested buyers for Type 26, but mainly because we beat them to Largs bay so it shows they've been looking around.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Bit of vision from ABC news on HMS Daring docking in Melbourne:

Advanced British warship HMS Daring docks in Melbourne - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

At around the 1.20min mark on the video is a shot of Daring tied near to NUSHIP Canberra.

That mast on Daring is certainly pretty tall, but Canberra certainly towers over Daring!!

Not long to go and Daring will be here in Sydney for the fleet review, I'm certainly looking forward to seeing the International Fleet.

One more thing, I read today that the Russians aren't coming, maybe they ran out of Rubles!!
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
I've attached a link to the latest APDR online magazine below:

Asia Pacific Defence Reporter : APDR Oct 2013, Page 1

Certainly a big naval focus in this issue, probably not surprising with the Fleet Review happening, the naval articles include:

* Anzac ASMD
* SEA 1654 Ph 3 (AOR replacements)
* Naval Aviation (MH60R's)
* SEA 1000
* International Fleet Review
* AWD's
* LHD's
* Patrol Boat's
* SEA 1180

I haven't read all of it yet, but I was looking at the articles on the LHD's and the AOR Replacements, Whilst APDR doesn't actually name Cantabria in its 'conclusions', it's easy to read between the lines and see that they are pushing for the Cantabria design to be selected and be built by BAE at the Williamstown yard in it's article about SEA 1654.

Which is not surprising, in the article about the LHD's, there is a half page advert from Navantia promoting Cantabria!
 

the road runner

Active Member
I haven't read all of it yet, but I was looking at the articles on the LHD's and the AOR Replacements, APDR is pushing for the Cantabria design to be selected and be built by BAE at the Williamstown yard in it's article about SEA 1654.
BAE has just put out a video named "Solution at Sea"

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE1NjKJdY9M"]Solutions at Sea - LHD - YouTube[/nomedia]


Think they would be pushing hard for more work on the books as the first LHD is almost finished. Having seen Cantabria when it was in Sydney ,it really is an impressive ship.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
BAE has just put out a video named "Solution at Sea"

Solutions at Sea - LHD - YouTube


Think they would be pushing hard for more work on the books as the first LHD is almost finished. Having seen Cantabria when it was in Sydney ,it really is an impressive ship.
I'm sure BAE will be pushing hard, they are probably permanently camped outside the new Def Mins office right now!


The questions that come to my mind about the project to replace Success and Sirius are:

1. Select the right ships for the RAN and have them enter service at the right time too.
2. Make sure that industry can participate and benefit as much as reasonably possible.
3. Make sure that you and me, the taxpayer, get value for money too!

So which of the two main contenders, Cantabria or the Aegir 18A class, can 'best' satisfy the list above and how would they likely be built?

If Cantabria design is selected, the build will most probably follow the same process as the LHD's, build the two hulls in Spain, tow to Oz and build and fit the superstructure modules in Williamstown.

If the Aegir 18A design is selected (and the ASC offer of 3 ships is accepted), build the first two completely in South Korea and build the 3rd completely here in Oz, modules built in Williamstown, Newcastle and modules and final assembly in Adelaide.

The next question, which is then the best benefit for industry?

If the Cantabria design is selected, then yes that could mean survival of Williamstown till they can start working on modules for the new Subs and eventually the Future Frigates too, but equally there wouldn't appear to be any industrial benefits for both Newcastle and Adelaide.

If the Aegir 18A design was selected, yes the first two would be build wholly in SK, which may mean the RAN get it's replacement ships sooner (maybe save money that would continue to be expended on Success too?). When the 3rd ships is built in Adelaide it would also mean that block work also gets shared with Williamstown and Newcastle.

The next thing is, what is likely to be the costs of each design?

According to Wiki, Cantabria cost Spain E238m in 2010, which equates to A$343m at today's exchange rates. If the build is split between Spain and Australia, add the premium that would no doubt likely follow building that way, add inflation, etc, and maybe you are looking at around $500m per ship, maybe less or could it be more?

Looking at the Aegir 18A design, the Norwegian ship (which appears to be what an RAN versions would be based on) It's build cost in SK is estimated at US$215.8m.

For an RAN version, maybe that rounds up to say $250m each for two SK built ships, the third ship to be built in Adelaide would no doubt be significantly more, would it double to say $500m? Maybe not that much.

I know these are just my very very rough figures, but it's probably reasonable to suggest that the RAN could have three Aegir 18A's for the price of two Cantabria ships.

Either choice seems to fall within the DCP allowance of around $1.5b for the project.


The next question is, will the new Government make a quick decision (as the Rudd Government was promising) or will they delay a decision till after the new White Paper in 18mths time?

If it acts quickly, I would imagine that Cantabria would be selected, that way it scores political brownie points by 'saving' Williamstown.

If it delays the decision, then it might be too late for Williamstown regardless of which design is eventually chosen.


My choice, (being a taxpayer that wants value for my money and also wanting to see the RAN get the capability it needs), I'd suggest maybe the following might be an 'out of left field' solution to both the AOR replacement and avoiding the Valley of Death too.

Select the Aegir design, start building the two SK ships and deliver them to the RAN asap to allow for the replacement of Success and Sirius.

Start production of the 3rd local build when practical after the 3rd AWD and start sharing the block work around to the three yards, maybe this will help all to survive till the new Sub project starts.

And that leaves Williamstown, so this is my 'out of left field' solution, as soon as Williamstown completes its work on the two LHD's and the last of the block work on the AWD's, give them the exclusive job of building the 6 larger LCH replacements.

Maybe there is a way to get a win for the Navy, a win for the taxpayer and a win for industry all at the same time.

Is what I'm suggesting a possibility of happening? Probably not........ oh well!!

Cheers,
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Why is the Berlin class not in the mindset, does it meet the RAN requirements or too expensive solution?
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
As per usual, governments of both persuasions ignore professional advice because it costs to implement then when the promised result of not acting on that advice comes to pass its everyone elses fault. This applies to overseas manufactured stuff as much as local
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Why is the Berlin class not in the mindset, does it meet the RAN requirements or too expensive solution?
The Berlin class is quite expensive. The three RCN ships are modified Berlin class and will cost US$2.58 billion. They will be desgned to operate in the Arctic ice fields around Canadas northern coast. Canada’s C$ 2.9B “Joint Support Ship” Project, Take 3 Bear in mind that Canadas military procurement system has some rather unique challenges.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Is there any actual crisis with the Collins, or is this the coalition playing its stupid anti Collins games again?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but when you say, 'or is this the Coalition playing its stupid anti-Collins games again', are you suggesting that the new Government leaked this report to The Australian?

Now that they are the Government (all of one week) and they also have the keys to the Kingdom, I'm sure that if they wanted to use Collins to score political points against Labor, the new Def Min would just call a press conference and say 'Shock! Horror! Labor has kept the truth from the people and have mismanaged our national security, etc'.

At this early stage of Government I can't see the advantage of leaking a report, then having to respond to that report and let the media control the story, I might be wrong but it just doesn't make sense to me.

We'll just have to wait and see what, if anything, the new Def Min says in response, it will be interesting to see if a public (sanitised) version of the report will be released.

I don't disagree that Johnston has been critical of Collins (but that's what Oppositions do, criticize, it's their job!), but the language of late has been less so and also recently (not too long before the election) Abbott had been reported as saying positive things about the Collins subs.

The 'reported' problems with Collins are going to hound any Government, we've now had four different Governments span the life of Collins, firstly the Hawke/Keating Government, then the Howard Government, then the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Government and now the Abbott Government.

I think any political party (when it is in Government) has to tread a fine line when it comes to blame of the previous political party, considering that both sides have now been in control 'twice' in the life of Collins!
 

cdxbow

Well-Known Member
Re Collins report.

It's probably nothing to do with the gov. It's in Ruperts rag, so it will be an uninformed beat up. We all have seen over the years, the foolish and usually misinformed articles the various 'defence' reporters have run. And you have to pay for it.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
If you cut out all the hyperbole in the media reporting (and there is a lot of hyperbole!) the Collins report basically says as they get older the subs will deteriorate. This should hardly be considered a ground breaking revelation. The article specifically mentions previously acknowledged problem areas like the donks. All of these areas of concern would no doubt be rectified by a major mid life refit.

If you want to read the article find out why News Ltd. hates Google:

https://www.google.com.au/#q=Secret+Defence+report+signals+Collins+subs+crisis+
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Berlin class is quite expensive. The three RCN ships are modified Berlin class and will cost US$2.58 billion.
The third Berlin class ship commissioned two weeks ago for Germany had a pricetag of 350 million Euro - and that included some upgrades for the other two ships. Assuming a cost of 300 million Euro for the ship itself, and deducting the VAT included in this pricetag pushes it to around 250-260 million Euro, which is effectively identical cost to the Cantabria (with three years inflation).

Shouldn't be much of a surprise either, the ships are designed around virtually identical requirements, and are built to identical standards. The primary difference in requirements is that Cantabria carries significantly more JP5 (1585m³ to Berlin's 605m³) due to being designed to supply a helo carrier - which of course applies for the RAN too.
The Berlin class, as a bonus in comparison, has capacity for container storage (with the potential for containerized force multiplier applications) and a higher general cargo storage capacity (up to 1075 tons to Cantabria's 470 tons), which is less needed for some navies.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
The third Berlin class ship commissioned two weeks ago for Germany had a pricetag of 350 million Euro - and that included some upgrades for the other two ships. Assuming a cost of 300 million Euro for the ship itself, and deducting the VAT included in this pricetag pushes it to around 250-260 million Euro, which is effectively identical cost to the Cantabria (with three years inflation).

Shouldn't be much of a surprise either, the ships are designed around virtually identical requirements, and are built to identical standards. The primary difference in requirements is that Cantabria carries significantly more JP5 (1585m³ to Berlin's 605m³) due to being designed to supply a helo carrier - which of course applies for the RAN too.
The Berlin class, as a bonus in comparison, has capacity for container storage (with the potential for containerized force multiplier applications) and a higher general cargo storage capacity (up to 1075 tons to Cantabria's 470 tons), which is less needed for some navies.


Well that explains it in a nutshell, thanks for that Kato
 
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