understanding modern airboure operations

[old faithful]

I feel I need to outline a short brief on how modern paratroops could be deployed, and why.

BTW, spelling is terrible, touch screen can't keep up with my fingers....

Even senior members show a lack of understanding. I have read about the irrelavence of paras, on mass, as the rigs they use are unstreable. Mass drops are used from low altitude, I have jumped at 650ft AGL, that is low, you have enough time to kick out of twists, lower your equipment, and try to set up for landing.

The argument that troops present an easy target, just dangaling in the sky....FFS.
Special forces /recon will have been on the ground and done DZ recces days or weeks prior to insertion,add satelite and aircraft recon to that. There will be air support most occasions.

DZ,s are nearly always a long walk from objectives, that's why paratroops practice walking in peace time. The argument that paras are arogent assholes, there is some truth to this! Australian paras don't do selection, no P company, or pinning of "blood wings" however, we only had 1 para battalian, you could do your whole career there, dickheads and pretenders are found out, and don't last. Everyone posted there WANTs to be there, if they don't, then just cease being a para volentier, and you're out, that easy, that makes it a closer unit than any other formation bar spec warries, and to an extent, elite, if only to our selves.

Relevent in modern warfare, you bet. QRF and cut off troops for a larger formation. Veryfast,deployment, harassment behind enemy lines, point of entry, deception plans for another force, flexibility,

 

[old faithful]

With plan beersheeba happening, I can see a slim chance of 3RAR re gaining the parachute role. 6 bns needed for the plan, currently 7 bns on line.

Use of 2 CDO regt in these roles would be a waste of their capabilities for the most part.

I can't see why we would train only 1 bn in maratime ops, with the capacity to lift a brigade at once just a few years away.

 

[Raven22]

With plan beersheeba happening, I can see a slim chance of 3RAR re gaining the parachute role. 6 bns needed for the plan, currently 7 bns on line.

Use of 2 CDO regt in these roles would be a waste of their capabilities for the most part.

I can't see why we would train only 1 bn in maratime ops, with the capacity to lift a brigade at once just a few years away.

There is no spare battalion. The seventh battalion is 2 RAR, which is the amphibious battalion.

As much as it might be nice to have a para battalion, and as much as you could make an argument for their usefulness, an Army as small as ours has to prioritise capabilities we need, as we aren't big enough to have everything.

Aside from the monetary and personnel costs of a para battalion, the readiness implications are what killed it. In the Australian context, para insertions only really have a role in capturing APODs and SPODs for follow on forces. Therefore they are only really useful when held at high readiness. The primary high readiness unit in Army will still be the RCT/RBG, with the ARE/ARG soon to be added to the mix. Maintaining an ACT as well on top of that is not achievable. It leads to circles inside circles with the readiness cycle, and couldn't be maintained without removing 3 RAR from the readiness cycle altogether. That is no change from recent years, where the ACT has been more of a theoretical capability than a real high readiness element.

When, outside of special forces, para insertions haven't been conducted since WWII, its a very reasonable decision not to maintain a para capability at the expense of capabilities we do have a demonstrated need for. The only way that might change is if an ex 3 RAR officer becomes chief of army. Since the current and future chiefs are all ex-2 RAR, that isn't going to happen.

BTW, 2 RAR won't be the only amphib trained unit in Army. 2 RARs role is to maintain the ARE. The rest of the ARG will simply come from the online brigade, whichever one it happens to be.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Military, non SOF, parachuting has been mostly obsolete since the fielding of the high capacity helicopter. Since we have these helicopters it just isn’t worth the raise, train, sustain cost of a parachute unit.

I’ve always been highly dubious of the point of entry seizure argument used to justify the PBG. Firstly the parachuting came first it was something thought up to justify a capability that was initially introduced to make things more exciting in the peacetime post VietNam War army. Secondly the company combat team parachuting in to seize an airfield requires a very limited set of likely enemy options to work. Too much defence and it won’t work, too little defence and you can just land the aircraft and march out the back.

 

[ADMk2]

With plan beersheeba happening, I can see a slim chance of 3RAR re gaining the parachute role. 6 bns needed for the plan, currently 7 bns on line.

Use of 2 CDO regt in these roles would be a waste of their capabilities for the most part.

I can't see why we would train only 1 bn in maratime ops, with the capacity to lift a brigade at once just a few years away.

Amphibious operations are the way forward for Australia. The "spare" battalion as Raven pointed out is 2RAR and they are assigned to developing that future amphibious capability. 2RAR won't be the sole repository of amphibious warfare capability in Army but it's the starting point.

The rest of our major land forces are and should be devoted to the development of armoured/mounted battle group formations or light infantry operations as need dictates.

Army still has a parachute capability via SOCOMD and I don't think that will be expanded any time soon.

 

[Waylander]

I wouldn't dismiss the ability to deploy more than just some special forces teams by parachute.

Often enough one hears about the obsolescense of larger airborn operations but there have been more of them during the last decades (during which the high capacity helicopters were available) than most people aknowledge.
These here are company or bn+ jumps.

1983: US in Grenada
1987: Afghan Government Forces in Afghanistan
1988: US in Honduras
1989: US Panama (2x jumps)
1997: French in Congo
2000: Russians in Checnya
2001: US in Afghanistan (2x jumps)
2002: US in Afghanistan
2003: Indonesians in Sumatra
2003: US in Afghanistan
2003: US in Iraq (3x jumps)
2007: French in the Central African Republic
2013: French in Mali (+ several follow on jumps by para engineers)

AFAIK the Russians jumped several times during their Afghanistan adventure and in the '70s the Rhodesians also jumped alot because of their fire force concept. The South Africans also did some jumps in their bush wars. And weren't there some jumps in the Pak-Indo wars?

Despite heavy transport helicopters IMO para insertions remains a viable form of deployment as you can bring lots of men and equipment to the ground over longer distances.
As for hot LZs. An air assault operation would also get massacred if it tried to land in the face of a well trained and equipped foe. I for example would not try to land right on top of a russian MotInf Brigade be it by chute or by helicopter...

 

[t68]

Not that I think this will happen but If Army were too expanded again with the additional two Battalions to become the PIR and will not affect the ARG model would that not be a better use of manpower considering our new CONOPS across the greater ADF, when IIRC army is required to be able to conduct a Brigade deployment and a Battalion level deployment. An interesting write up on this very subject was written in the Australian Army Journal Volume IX, Number 3, Summer 2012 by Major Paul Scanlan.

http://www.army.gov.au/Our-future/L...AAJ/2012Summer/05-IsParachuteCapabilitySt.pdf

I have taken the liberty of quoting a section relevant to the ADF in the scope of what we can do if our only parachute element is left with SOCOMD,
“The subsequent effects of the decision to remove a conventional parachute capability were recently highlighted during war gaming at the Australian Command and Staff College. In a scenario that involved a services protected evacuation prior to conventional conflict, the only force element available to fulfill the responsibilities of a strategic reserve was the 2nd Commando Regiment. Considering extant operational commitments to Operation SLIPPER and Defence Aid to the Civil Power, planners were left with an option to either have a strategic reserve that was parachute capable and no force available to conduct forced entry seizure of an APOD or SPOD, or vice versa. Similar significant limitations were encountered during the 2012 Exercise POZIERES PROSPECT command post exercise, where the requirement to simultaneously seize an APOD and SPOD demonstrated concurrency limitations with tasking SOCOMD capability with conventional and unconventional tasks. This required an airmobile supplementation with the Ready Battalion Group which, in reality, would not be available in the primary operating environment due to distance, but can be achieved in the 2013 Exercise TALISMAN SABRE scenario as Northern Legais abuts the Australian mainland. Furthermore rotary-wing capability has limited range, endurance, asset complement and utility in achieving a rapid decisive effect need to secure an APOD or SPOD in an expeditionary context, 65 and exacerbated when considering the limited Australian rotary-wing fleet. An airborne combat team or parachute battalion group fulfills this role more appropriately than any SOCOMD force, more so when you consider their primary role, and that of their enablers—artillery, engineers and medical—is to secure and hold (supported by a heavy drop of engineer stores and combat service support) a point of entry.”

 

[Feanor]

2000: Russians in Checnya

AFAIK the Russians jumped several times during their Afghanistan adventure

I just tried to find info on that, but I can't find any. I thought the 345th Regiment which seized Bagram airport, and participated in storming Amin's palace was parachuted in, but it appears they were flown in prior to commencement of hostilities and landed. The largest "десантная/desantnaya" operation is cited as the Pandjer offensive operation, in june 1982 which involved ~4000 VDV soldiers but they were flown in by helicopters, which landed to disembark them. When was a company element parachuted in Chechnya? Are you referencing to the battle in Argun canyon by the 6th company? Because they were helicoptered in.

Do you have any specific info? Thanks in advance.

I wouldn't dismiss the ability to deploy more than just some special forces teams by parachute.

Often enough one hears about the obsolescense of larger airborn operations but there have been more of them during the last decades (during which the high capacity helicopters were available) than most people aknowledge.

Despite heavy transport helicopters IMO para insertions remains a viable form of deployment as you can bring lots of men and equipment to the ground over longer distances.
As for hot LZs. An air assault operation would also get massacred if it tried to land in the face of a well trained and equipped foe. I for example would not try to land right on top of a russian MotInf Brigade be it by chute or by helicopter...

This seems to be the thought among many militaries. Russia continues to develop capabilities for regiment+ sized jumps, and the plan is to have the ability to parachute a full para-assault, or air-parachute division with all personnel and equipment. And US airborne units aren't disappearing any time soon either.

EDIT: Iirc there was a large Pakistani jump in 2009 as part of Operation Black Thunderstorm.

 

[old faithful]

Raven, you're right, we have a small army, a population of around 22-25million.
When we had a population of 13 million, we had a standing army of 32000, 6 inf battalions. Now with 10 million more, we have an army of 30,000 and 7 inf. Battalions.

We can definatnatley afford a proper div with 9 battalions at the least.

Maj Gen Mark Evans, Gen Angus Campbell both ex 3RAR, Minister for defence science and personel is also ex 3 RAR.

I have been told, expect a 7th C17.

 

[Volkodav]

I suppose an option could be to expand 2 Commando Regiment to provide Btn sized sub units instead of the current companies, that way one could be dedicated airborne.

 

[Waylander]

There is a wonderfull list on a german forum from which I took the dates of most of the jumps.

According to this list they jumped on 18th of April in 2000 in the Shatoi province. 3000 paras delivered by IL-76s. They were employed against rebel formations. I assume they tried something along the Rhodesian fireforce cordons albeit larger in scale.

 

[t68]

Maj Gen Mark Evans, Gen Angus Campbell both ex 3RAR, Minister for defence science and personel is also ex 3 RAR.

I was not aware that they have picked the final cabinet numbers, thought they were waiting on a couple of seats to be confirmed.

I have been told, expect a 7th C17

Interesting as much as I think the C17 is a wonderful aircraft do we need a 7th considering we have a standing regular Army of 30000 against the UK with 8 C17 with a standing regular army of 105000 but will be reduced to 85/90000 by 2020, just seems odd to me but at the same time I would not say no to the additional aircraft.

If by chance we do need more what is the magic number like the C27J Spartan capped at 10 just seems like an odd number.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Maj Gen Mark Evans, Gen Angus Campbell both ex 3RAR, Minister for defence science and personel is also ex 3 RAR.

Good choice, good reputation

I have been told, expect a 7th C17.

what level of confidence is attached to this? Curious as we've been told no major platforms to be purchased in the 1st term

although, there could be a work around if they intend putting it through as a rapid....

 

[Abraham Gubler]

AFAIK the Russians jumped several times during their Afghanistan adventure and in the '70s the Rhodesians also jumped alot because of their fire force concept. The South Africans also did some jumps in their bush wars. And weren't there some jumps in the Pak-Indo wars?

Despite heavy transport helicopters IMO para insertions remains a viable form of deployment as you can bring lots of men and equipment to the ground over longer distances.
As for hot LZs. An air assault operation would also get massacred if it tried to land in the face of a well trained and equipped foe. I for example would not try to land right on top of a russian MotInf Brigade be it by chute or by helicopter...

In many cases the examples listed used parachuting because that’s how the parachute unit wanted to deploy. There were available helicopter deployed units who got pushed aside so parachuting could be used (Grenada) and available airlanding (Panama). In many of these cases the utility of parachuting is debateable as it caused a number of casualties that could have been avoided if less dramatic means were used.

As for the Rhodesian fire forces they only used parachuting because they lacked transport helicopters. Whenever South African Pumas were available to them the Dakotas and chutes were left at home.

Further with new helicopter technology like V-22 and JMR the range and speed advantage of parachuting is become less so. Especially as the long and obvious lead times to prepare a parachute assault and the advent of wide access satellite imaging are destroying the operational/tactical surprise element of a parachute assault.

 

[Raven22]

Raven, you're right, we have a small army, a population of around 22-25million.
When we had a population of 13 million, we had a standing army of 32000, 6 inf battalions. Now with 10 million more, we have an army of 30,000 and 7 inf. Battalions.

And in WWI, with a population of 5 million, we had 60 battalions. So what? Apples to oranges comparisons aren't very helpful. Besides, reaching back to history won't help the cause for a parachute battalion, as there isn't much of a history to reach back to.

Maj Gen Mark Evans, Gen Angus Campbell both ex 3RAR, Minister for defence science and personel is also ex 3 RAR.

Mark Evans is retired, and Angus Campbell is the ex-CO of 2 RAR. I don't think either one are going to help the parachute cause too much, particularly as the next CA is almost certainly going to be Michael Slater, who is 2 RAR to the bone.

 

[Raven22]

I suppose an option could be to expand 2 Commando Regiment to provide Btn sized sub units instead of the current companies, that way one could be dedicated airborne.

Maybe we could disband the entire conventional army and just make everyone Commandos? Or maybe the good ideas piñata just needs a bit of a rest.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Michael Slater, who is 2 RAR to the bone.

You had to say bone didn't you.

Then Brig. Slater famous for being on air from Dili to Jessica Rowe releaving Channel Nine's stage managing the interview to look 'dangerous'. Jessica Rowe famous for Eddie McGuire trying to "bone" ie sack her. Ahh the heady days of May-June 2006.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Maybe we could disband the entire conventional army and just make everyone Commandos? Or maybe the good ideas piñata just needs a bit of a rest.

It’s also pretty redundant once the amphib deployment system with ARG, LHDs comes online. With this capability there is no need for a PBG to capture any kind of conventional point of entry. Not when the LHDs can easily simultaneously land two combat teams by helo not to mention a mechanised one by LCM.

The only remaining argument for the PBG is the rapid emergency style air landing against minimal threat (ie Operation Cactus). In which case the SOF have no problems covering this.

 

[Raven22]

You had to say bone didn't you.

Then Brig. Slater famous for being on air from Dili to Jessica Rowe releaving Channel Nine's stage managing the interview to look 'dangerous'. Jessica Rowe famous for Eddie McGuire trying to "bone" ie sack her. Ahh the heady days of May-June 2006.

I think it will be very interesting if General Slater is made CA. It's probably fair to say that his priorities will be very different to the current CA.

 

[the road runner]

Was just reading an article by Major Paul Scanlan

http://www.army.gov.au/Our-future/L...AAJ/2012Summer/05-IsParachuteCapabilitySt.pdf

Am curious about his point of Plan Beersheba to have one Amphibious Battalion group for operations while also providing a Parachute battle group be better for the ADF than what the Government is pushing for in the White paper?