Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[Todjaeger]

Is there a source for that as I've never (ever) heard that argument that NZ didn't want to exercise the 3rd and 4th ANZAC Frigate options because of "lazy Aussie shipyard workers" etc.

Is there a source for the above sort of sentiment? Certainly. The real question is, could I find it right now...

In some of the reading I have done about the RNZN Leander-class replacements, I have come across commentary that was to the effect that NZ was paying, but Oz was getting the benefits. Other areas with 'interesting' commentary about the programme prior to vessel construction were in some political circles the frigates would be used to draw NZ back into ANZUS, and/or that the frigates were too specialized for NZ needs. Others also apparently had issues with NZ getting frigates, wanting the RNZN to have EEZ constabulary patrol assets instead. Keep in mind this was in the 1987-1993 timeframe.

The reason I brought up the modules construction, is that it has always appeared that those quoting the price differential between a complete foreign build vs. Oz/Kiwi build always seem to forget or ignore the NZ workshare. Half the module construction work for the programme apart from the lead ship is IMO a significant amount. Also, while I do not know what the 'extra' cost of the progamme was (Ngati mentioned something like 34% more) Oz gov'ts have had studies done which have shown that even with a 30% + increase in cost for domestic builds, the flow-on effects make that a less expensive option than a foreign build. Given that NZ was guaranteed a minimum of 16% total programme value coming from NZ, a great of what Gov't spent on the RNZN frigates was either kept in NZ, or found other ways to come back into NZ via the project.

-Cheers

 

[KiwiRob]

Another approach could be the Canadian JSS variant of the Karl Doorman that the Canadians have finally signed up to for the RCN. However I would rather it built in South Korea instead of Canada or Germany just because of cost.

I thought the Canadians bought the Berlin Class?

 

[ngatimozart]

I thought the Canadians bought the Berlin Class?

My mistake. You are right. I've edited it. Thanks.

I knew I had Karl Doorman on the brain. They Dutch are building the first of the class at the moment and an impressive looking vessel it is, but it also has an impressive price with wiki reckoning US$480 million which is twice the BMT AEGIR Logistics ship being built for the Norwegians. The ship is being built in Romania.

 

[40 deg south]

My mistake. You are right. I've edited it. Thanks.

I knew I had Karl Doorman on the brain. They Dutch are building the first of the class at the moment and an impressive looking vessel it is, but it also has an impressive price with wiki reckoning US$480 million which is twice the BMT AEGIR Logistics ship being built for the Norwegians. The ship is being built in Romania.

Now you've really confused me, Ngati. Which ship is being built in Roumania - the Karl Doorman or the BMT for Norway?

 

[ngatimozart]

Now you've really confused me, Ngati. Which ship is being built in Roumania - the Karl Doorman or the BMT for Norway?

Jeez I was really having a bad day that day. My apologies for the confusion. The Karl Doorman for the Dutch navy is being built in Romania. The BMT AEGIR for Norway is being built by Daewoo in South Korea.

 

[Volkodav]

Jeez I was really having a bad day that day. My apologies for the confusion. The Karl Doorman for the Dutch navy is being built in Romania. The BMT AEGIR for Norway is being built by Daewoo in South Korea.

Which is also where the RNs four AEGIRs are being built as well as two of the three proposed by ASC for the RAN. Irrespective of whether the RAN selects the AEGIR or not the current build should offer some serious economies for NZ

 

[40 deg south]

Which is also where the RNs four AEGIRs are being built as well as two of the three proposed by ASC for the RAN. Irrespective of whether the RAN selects the AEGIR or not the current build should offer some serious economies for NZ

Latest Previews of Next Generation RFA Ships

The article at the link ofers an update on the 4 UK MARS supply ships. Size is given at 37,000 tonnes, which is slightly larger than previous estimates I have seen. Fuel capacity is (obviously) much higher than for the proposed Endeavour replacement, but only room for 8 ISO containers. Crew is 63, which is impressively low for the size of the vessel. Only 10 months from cutting steel to vessel completion!

The MARS ships appear to be about 10,000 tonnes larger than the proposed Norwegion logistics ship, which is closer in size to what NZ will want. Interestingly, the Norwegians appear to be paying quite a bit more on a per-ship basis - perhaps Daewoo gives good discounts for ordering in bulk!

 

[40 deg south]

I knew I had Karl Doorman on the brain. They Dutch are building the first of the class at the moment and an impressive looking vessel it is, but it also has an impressive price with wiki reckoning US$480 million which is twice the BMT AEGIR Logistics ship being built for the Norwegians. The ship is being built in Romania.

A Friday update just for Ngati.
Netherlands-bound Support Ship Departs
The Karl Dorman is en route from Romania (where the heavy metal-bashing is done) to the Netherlands for final fit-out.

Some ore stats from the Dutch Navy.
Joint logistic Support Ship (JSS) | Ministry of Defence

Interesting that it has taken two and a half years from keel laying compared to the suggested 10 months for Daewoo to build the 10,000-tonne-larger MARS ships for the UK!

 

[John Newman]

A Friday update just for Ngati.
Netherlands-bound Support Ship Departs
The Karl Dorman is en route from Romania (where the heavy metal-bashing is done) to the Netherlands for final fit-out.

Some ore stats from the Dutch Navy.
Joint logistic Support Ship (JSS) | Ministry of Defence

Interesting that it has taken two and a half years from keel laying compared to the suggested 10 months for Daewoo to build the 10,000-tonne-larger MARS ships for the UK!

Looking at the second article, apart from the two and half years build time so far, the Karl Dorman still has a bit of a way to go yet.

There is still more work to be done in the Netherlands and the ship won't be handed over to the Netherlands DMO till mid 2014 and it also appears the ship won't be classed as 'operational' till mid 2015, so that's still another two years away.

If I remember correctly regarding the UK ships, apart from the very quick 10mth build time, they still have to have various systems fitted back in the UK too, and even if that took up to another 12mths, its still a pretty impressive built time.

I wouldn't mind spending a day somewhere in the future looking over the DSME yard, must be a pretty amazing industrial complex to see in action.

You never know, one day we may see a couple of ships with a Kiwi and Kangaroo emblems bolted to the funnels that were made in 'South Korea'!

 

[ngatimozart]

Looking at the second article, apart from the two and half years build time so far, the Karl Dorman still has a bit of a way to go yet.

There is still more work to be done in the Netherlands and the ship won't be handed over to the Netherlands DMO till mid 2014 and it also appears the ship won't be classed as 'operational' till mid 2015, so that's still another two years away.

If I remember correctly regarding the UK ships, apart from the very quick 10mth build time, they still have to have various systems fitted back in the UK too, and even if that took up to another 12mths, its still a pretty impressive built time.

I wouldn't mind spending a day somewhere in the future looking over the DSME yard, must be a pretty amazing industrial complex to see in action.

You never know, one day we may see a couple of ships with a Kiwi and Kangaroo emblems bolted to the funnels that were made in 'South Korea'!

Wish we had a 'like' button we could use. I did email our Minister and ask for an indication what kind of figures they were looking at for the endavour replacement.

This is the question I asked

In the 19th April 2013 online edition of Defense News a story was published stating that a Request For Information (RFI) had been
issued by the NZ Government for a Maritime Projection and Sustainment Capability Vessel (MPSC) to replace HMNZS Endeavour. The
story listed the specifications that the government would like to be met. The specifications cited are impressive and if met would give the
RNZN and the NZ government a very highly capable vessel. My question is this; has there been a budget set aside for the MPSC? Or more correctly a figure that NZDF has been told may be acceptable? If so could you please advise what this figure may be. Why I ask this, is because the Norwegian Government have just signed a contract with BMT for a 26,000 tonne AEGIR Logistics Support Vessel for US$213 million. The ship is to be built in South Korea by Daewoo.
Emailed to Minister of Defence 3/7/2013

.
And the reply I received

The project to replace HMNZS Endeavour with a new Maritime Projection and Sustainment Capability remains in its early stages. Information is being sought from industry on a number of options. As a result, I am not yet in a position to provide firm costs for this project.
Email dated 22/7/2013 from Defence Private Secretary, Office of the Minister of Defence.

So no figure or range of figures which is what I expected. I would not be surprised to see this project delayed until after the 2014 election despite the obvious need and urgency. Then this and Air Transport Replacement Project will see the pollies cry poverty and both projects will be a right balls up.

 

[Gibbo]

First glimpse of 'new look' Canterbury

Having supposedly (AFAIK) completed it's remediation' programme there won't be any significant visible changes other than the relocation of the RHIBs alcove.

If you check out the following link you can see a photo of the ship (click to zoom in). The alcoves don't appear to have sprouted doors but have certainly been moved forward & up - now sit just under the LCM stations. Obviously had to move the gang-plank somehow.

Pacific Partnership Flag Crosses Decks to HMNZS Canterbury | Commander, U.S. Pacific Fleet

 

[CJohn]

From the one or two pictures to date of Canterbury post remediation work on the alcoves it was not apparent what solution was used to accomodate the boarding ladder.

Heres a look at the pretty neat engineering solution used ITL MARINE DESIGN Accommodation Boarding Ladder (Gangway) for NZ Navy L421 HMNZS Canterbury - YouTube

 

[Gibbo]

From the one or two pictures to date of Canterbury post remediation work on the alcoves it was not apparent what solution was used to accomodate the boarding ladder.

Heres a look at the pretty neat engineering solution used ITL MARINE DESIGN Accommodation Boarding Ladder (Gangway) for NZ Navy L421 HMNZS Canterbury - YouTube

Cool thanks for posting that - I did wonder what they'd done about the gangway. Very flash I must say!

 

[htbrst]

Cool thanks for posting that - I did wonder what they'd done about the gangway. Very flash I must say!

Kinda cool that they are NZ designed and built - Thanks for posting

There is more info on this webpage here with the specifications of the gangway here - they are strong enough to hold 50 loaded troops: ITL - New Zealand Navy <p>14 m Accommodation Ladders

There is also another page on the site about the doors they made that now fitted in the former boat alcoves (so that there is jetty level access for personnel to the vehicle deck): ITL - New Zealand Navy External Shell Doors

 

[SASWanabe]

sorry folks, a little off topic. is Canterbury in Brisbane atm? driving over the gateway bridge this morning i saw what i at first thought was Choules, looking a little closer i noticed the landing craft on davits. so is it Canterbury or someone else?

 

[ASSAIL]

sorry folks, a little off topic. is Canterbury in Brisbane atm? driving over the gateway bridge this morning i saw what i at first thought was Choules, looking a little closer i noticed the landing craft on davits. so is it Canterbury or someone else?

Not Canterbury, she is currently with Pacific Partnership in the Solomon Islands

 

[SASWanabe]

*perplexed*

im gonna move this over to the RAN thread if its not canterbury then, Thx Assail

 

[ngatimozart]

I see the Dutch Defence Ministry are going to sell off their Karel Doorman JSS ship in order to save 300+ million euros. It was due into service in 2015 and is to be sold before it is due to be comissioned. Defence to Sell Off Biggest Navy Ship Before It Is Finished This is part of a larger 1 billion euro cost cutting exercise.

The Karel Doorman has a max displacement of 27,800 tonnes, a draught of 8 metres, 204.7m long, 30.4m wide and 53m high which includes the Integrated Sensor and Communication Suite mast. Joint logistic Support Ship (JSS) | Ministry of Defence Whilst my personal view is that it would look excellent with a black kiwi painted on the funnel, IIRC it is too much ship for the Endeavour replacement RFI. I think the draught is 1m to deep and they were only looking for about 200 odd lane metres instead of 2000 lane metres. 300 million euros = US$395.3 million at the moment and I think such a price would be more than the NZG & bean counters would be prepared to pay. Wikipedia give its crew as 150 plus 150 extra accomodation and that crew number would be too much of a stretch for the RNZN at the moment. Wikipedia also give its build cost as US$480 million. In the current climate it is to expensive for NZDF unless the US and Aussie govts put plenty of pressure on NZG to increase its defence spend.

Maybe a opportunist purchase for the RAN.

 

[StevoJH]

What about Karel Doorman to the RAN and Choules to the RNZN?

 

[John Newman]

What about Karel Doorman to the RAN and Choules to the RNZN?

You took the words out of my mouth!

Certainly look like an impressive ship and with the RAS ability too, would give the RAN a 'third' replenishment ship capability as well.

Mr Abbott? An election present to the Navy, please??