Russian Air Force News & Discussion

Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Haavarla said:
What is happening is this, the R & D programs in Russia for these Anti air systems are moving forward a X 10 times the speed of manufactors out-put rate, hense the cluster-f*** myriad of different systems.
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Well in PVO SV there will be 4 different systems, by T.O. There will be a MANPADS, there will be a point-air defense SAM (Strela-10 or the new Sosna), there will be a gun-missile system (Shilka/Tunguska/Pantsyr), and there will be a tactical SAM (OSA/Tor/Morphey). If you look at the force org of an MRBde, you will see there is one tac-SAM btln, and one mixed btln where one battery is gun/missile, one battery is Strela-10, and one battery is MANPADS.

Then there is the PVO VVS, which has the former division-level SAMs (Buk family) and theater SAMs (S-300/S-400). The Vityaz, which is a mid-range SAM, should replace the Buk, the S-400 replace the S-300, and the S-500 be an entirely new asset. A T.O. structure for air-space defense brigades could be 2 btlns of S-350, 2 btlns of S-400, 1 btln of S-500, and associated SHORAD (Pantsyr/Tor). They'd probably need supporting EW/EA, and ELINT/SIGINT gear, but I'm not well enough versed in current VVS/PVO practice to comment there.

Also the MiG-35 buy has been delayed, due to lack of funds. The contract was supposed to be signed in June, for 37 aircraft.

http://vz.ru/news/2013/7/12/641038.html

And production has started on the first Il-478 tanker, though it's unclear whether they have a solid contract, or the MoD has simply expressed its intent to buy them.
 
Feanor

Feanor

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Some more news, apparently there is a next-generation transport aircraft project, likely a continuation of the Il-106 program from the Soviet days. The program remained on life-support for 20 years following the collapse of the USSR. It seems a tender was held out of the public eye for a "long-range heavy transport aircraft" and Ilyushin has been awarded the contract for developing a technical project, unrelated to the Il-476.

bmpd -

Meanwhile the Il-476 has begun actual state trials, even as mass production for the type and its derivatives (including the A-90 EW/EA carrier, A-100 AEW, and Il-478 tanker) proceeds, with the first three serial aircraft expected next year.

http://lenta.ru/news/2013/07/15/il476/

Also a photo of the latest batch Su-34s at Baltimore airbase (airbase 7000), bort numbers 28-30. Apparently at full strength, the base will house at least 48 Su-34s, in 4 squadrons. It seems that they will complete deliveries to Baltimore before beginning them to Shagol, which is the second airbase (in Center MD) meant to receive them. Such large numbers at a single airbase are probably a result of recent reforms which reduced numbers and centralized units at larger bases.

bmpd -

The first Tu-214R prototype has been painted, and it appears that trials are proceeding successfully despite earlier rumors about problems using the Fraktsiya project equipment on the airframe. According to industry sources, they expect a total of 4-5 aircraft produced under this program, which would make for a very modest number in service. Meanwhile the existing Tu-214R has already been used fairly actively in various places, as part of testing.

http://oao-tupolev.livejournal.com/53603.html
 
Feanor

Feanor

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Staff member
There is a 13 bln rouble (~450 mln USD) contract for Vikhr-M ATGMs, probably for the Ka-52 helos. Prior to this Ka-52s in line units were usually seen flying with unguided missile pods. The contract is with NPO Izhmash. Hypothetically some Su-25 variants were supposed to be able to carry this munition, and it's unclear whether the SM upgrade allows regular Su-25s to use it. I also don't know how many missiles were actually bought, so it's hard to say whether the numbers are meant for helos alone, or the Su-25 fleet also.

bmpd -
 
alexkvaskov

alexkvaskov

New Member
It's probably a good amount, maybe as many as 5000 missiles, going by the cost of comparable ATGMs like the Hellfire, going for 60-70k USD a piece..

Which ATGMs do they currently operate on the Hinds and Havocs? Also are there any plans to unify tank launched, man-portable and helo-launched ATGMs?
 
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Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
alexkvaskov said:
It's probably a good amount, maybe as many as 5000 missiles, going by the cost of comparable ATGMs like the Hellfire, going for 60-70k USD a piece..

Which ATGMs do they currently operate on the Hinds and Havocs? Also are there any plans to unify tank launched, man-portable and helo-launched ATGMs?
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Hinds use the AT-6 Shturm iirc, while the Mi-28s use Ataka (or at least are supposed to). There is a project to upgrade the Shturm-S to carry Ataka instead, under the name Shturm-SM. However they're also buying the Khrizantema-S which is a BMP-3 based Kornet carrier. There were also plans to buy an upgraded Kornet version on the Tigr or Tigr-M chassis. FInally the Metis-M is being bought, in small quantities. So, in a word, no.

It's actually even worse then that. They're not even planning to unify helo-carried ATGMs. Also there are barrel-fired ATGMs, of several different types, for tanks, and for IFVs. So overall it's not getting any better. As late as 2009, some Marine units were still using the SPG-9, and were taking iirc AT-3s as replacements in 2010.
 
Feanor

Feanor

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Staff member
I've heard that it's a "light" version of what the SM3 was originally supposed to be. I think I posted more info on it, earlier in this thread.

EDIT: Here it is.

Feanor said:
South MD just took delivery of upgraded Frogfoots called Su-25SM3. Supposedly it can destroy small ground targets in 0 visibility. What this actually means I don't know. This is the first delivery of aircraft (unclear whether of the type (SM3) or just to this airbase).

http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/29091/
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I'll translate some of the article for you.

"This modern aircraft has a satellite navigation system GLONASS (GPS) with the ability to program a coordinate on the map with accuracy down to 10m that allows the pilot to operate without communication with ground services, not only in good weather but in 0 visibility. The cabin has a multi-purpose display that shows the situation on the ground and in the air. Because of the navigation system the flightceiling of the aircraft is doubled (!?!?!? perhaps someone knowledgeable on the subject can clarify how this can be the case). Because of the deep modernization the overall effectiveness of the aircraft has tripled."
 
Feanor

Feanor

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There seems to be some interest in producing a mid-air refueler on the Il-96-400 aircraft. The Polet cargo hauler has recently cancelled the purchase of 3 such aircraft. Apparently they would have much longer flight range and carry more fuel then similar aircraft on the Il-76 airframe. A MoD order would also keep the type in production through 2020, but to be honest I think its a bad idea. The MoD has enough trouble with non-standardized fleets of aircraft and vehicles. Adding yet another one to the mix is questionable to put it mildly. There's also the fact that the Il-78 already exists and would simply involve mounting the existing equipment on an updated aircraft. In the case of the Il-96 they would need to run a separate OKR and pass fairly extensive state trials, as the Il-96 isn't a military aircraft. Finally its not a terribly successful aircraft, with the passenger type out of production due to lack of customers.

bmpd -

EDIT: CAST just published info on a contract signed last year, that was for 16 Su-30M2 aircraft for the VVS. That's right, not the Su-30SM (Russified MKI) but the Su-30M2, the domestic variant of the unimpressive Su-30MK2. I'm not sure why they're buying them, though as combat trainers for single-seat Flankers might be the answer, since that's the way the 4 Su-30M2s currently in service are being used. Then again, I'm not sure why the Su-30M2 would be any more useful then the Su-30SM in that role. Given that the factory producing them is the same one producing the Su-35S (KnAAPO), and also is overloaded with Sukhoi Super Jet production, it's not like the factory needs additional orders. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if there were delays, or the time frame was initially fairly far into the future. The small number is also curious. They wouldn't be able to form more then a single T.O. squadron, even counting the earlier delivered aircraft.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/583726.html
 
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Haavarla

Haavarla

Active Member
Feanor said:
EDIT: CAST just published info on a contract signed last year, that was for 16 Su-30M2 aircraft for the VVS. That's right, not the Su-30SM (Russified MKI) but the Su-30M2, the domestic variant of the unimpressive Su-30MK2. I'm not sure why they're buying them, though as combat trainers for single-seat Flankers might be the answer, since that's the way the 4 Su-30M2s currently in service are being used. Then again, I'm not sure why the Su-30M2 would be any more useful then the Su-30SM in that role. Given that the factory producing them is the same one producing the Su-35S (KnAAPO), and also is overloaded with Sukhoi Super Jet production, it's not like the factory needs additional orders. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if there were delays, or the time frame was initially fairly far into the future. The small number is also curious. They wouldn't be able to form more then a single T.O. squadron, even counting the earlier delivered aircraft.

bmpd -
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I think those Su-30M2 will be spread out on the different Air Groups AB. And will fly along the Su-35S and possible some Su-30SM.

I think VVS are facing some cuts and scrapping of legasy Flankers as we speak.

As for KnAAZ Production out put rate. They have the Su-35S line going. And we know they have an additional Flanker prod line going for export and domestic(Su-30M2 & Su-27SM3 among the different export variants) so Production wise it should not be a problem.
 
Feanor

Feanor

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Staff member
The MoD just ordered an additional batch of 40 Mi-8AMTSh with deliveries to start next year.

bmpd - "

Also total numbers of Yak-130s and Su-30SM planned for this year, for the VVS, are 18 and 14 respectively. The last aircraft should arrive by november. And next year the production figures should be a lot higher.

"
"

Finally the new Voronezh class BMD radar in Siberia is entering experimental exploitation. Trials are expected to start next year.

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Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Haavarla said:
I think those Su-30M2 will be spread out on the different Air Groups AB. And will fly along the Su-35S and possible some Su-30SM.
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I wouldn't make much sense. The Su-30SM doesn't need a trainer being a two-seater. The Su-35S is too different for the Su-30M2 to be a trainer for it. Legacy Su-27 are also too different, not to mention rapidly disappearing. Even if they plan for two trainers per squadron, that means that a total of 20 Su-30M2 is trainers for 10 squadrons of upgraded Flankers, where as they only have 5.

I think VVS are facing some cuts and scrapping of legasy Flankers as we speak.

As for KnAAZ Production out put rate. They have the Su-35S line going. And we know they have an additional Flanker prod line going for export and domestic(Su-30M2 & Su-27SM3 among the different export variants) so Production wise it should not be a problem.
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Well I'm not completely sure where their production lines overlap.I do know export orders for the Su-30MK2 haven't been forthcoming recently, except Vietnam. So this might be support for the MK2 production line. But it still makes little sense as far as the VVS is concerned.

EDIT: Something else fairly interesting, three Pantsyr-S1 from probably the 12th VKO Brigade (not sure which regiment) were recently redeployed to Kamchatka by air, where they were rapidly marched out to the field, and used to intercept a cruise missile launched from a Tu-95 from 600kms away. They also conducted drills, where one of the Pantsyrs was positioned 20kms away, and launched aerial targets for the other two to fire at. The Pacific Fleet press service published some excellent photo materials of the whole thing.

http://pressa-tof.livejournal.com/128682.html
http://pressa-tof.livejournal.com/130388.html
http://pressa-tof.livejournal.com/132276.html

I do have to wonder how many of that long train of vehicles are necessary to the Pantsyrs functioning, and how many are there to observe/support the training exercise. It's also interesting that the three vehicles are referred to as a battery of 3 vehicles. That seems a very small number for a battery. By comparison, the 2S6 Tunguska features batteries of 6 vehicles, and btlns of 18, which if fairly standard for artillery units (to which SAM/SPAAG units belong to by Soviet classification).
 
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Haavarla

Haavarla

Active Member
Feanor said:
I wouldn't make much sense. The Su-30SM doesn't need a trainer being a two-seater. The Su-35S is too different for the Su-30M2 to be a trainer for it. Legacy Su-27 are also too different, not to mention rapidly disappearing. Even if they plan for two trainers per squadron, that means that a total of 20 Su-30M2 is trainers for 10 squadrons of upgraded Flankers, where as they only have 5.



Well I'm not completely sure where their production lines overlap.I do know export orders for the Su-30MK2 haven't been forthcoming recently, except Vietnam. So this might be support for the MK2 production line. But it still makes little sense as far as the VVS is concerned.

EDIT: Something else fairly interesting, three Pantsyr-S1 from probably the 12th VKO Brigade (not sure which regiment) were recently redeployed to Kamchatka by air, where they were rapidly marched out to the field, and used to intercept a cruise missile launched from a Tu-95 from 600kms away. They also conducted drills, where one of the Pantsyrs was positioned 20kms away, and launched aerial targets for the other two to fire at. The Pacific Fleet press service published some excellent photo materials of the whole thing.

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ÐРТИХООКЕÐÐСКОМ РУБЕЖЕ - Зенитные ракетно-пушечные комплекÑÑ‹ «Панцирь-С» прибыли к меÑту Ð¿Ñ€Ð¾Ð²ÐµÐ´ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð±Ð¾ÐµÐ²Ð¾Ð¹ Ñтрельбы на Камчат
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I do have to wonder how many of that long train of vehicles are necessary to the Pantsyrs functioning, and how many are there to observe/support the training exercise. It's also interesting that the three vehicles are referred to as a battery of 3 vehicles. That seems a very small number for a battery. By comparison, the 2S6 Tunguska features batteries of 6 vehicles, and btlns of 18, which if fairly standard for artillery units (to which SAM/SPAAG units belong to by Soviet classification).
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Aren't sure i've posted this before, but i've seen KnAAZ signing up for an additional batch of Su-30MK2 for Sudan.. or was it Chad.. can't remember, but i will post the link asa i found it.
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Haavarla said:
Aren't sure i've posted this before, but i've seen KnAAZ signing up for an additional batch of Su-30MK2 for Sudan.. or was it Chad.. can't remember, but i will post the link asa i found it.
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Uganda, but deliveries iirc are either complete or almost complete, and the numbers are tiny. The original contract was for 6 planes, there were some news that another 6 might have been bought.

Meanwhile DACT training between Su-34s and MiG-29SMTs is becoming a regular thing, which is a good thing given the problems with VVS training in the past.

Экипажи иÑтребителей МиГ-29СМТ уÑпешно завершили ÑƒÑ‡ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð¿Ð¾ отработке перехвата воздушных целей - Сделано у наÑ

Also Belorussian opposition seems to be working against the Russian airbase, where the Su-27SM3s from Krymsk are supposed to go. I doubt they'll be able to do much to prevent the Russian base from appearing there, and there are some serious questions as to whether a base there is even necessary from a military stand point, though no doubt it has great political significance. It certainly would allow for far closer cooperation and joint training between Russia and Belarus. Given that the two have a joint command over their air forces in the event of a war (essentially Russian command over the Belarussian VVS) this might be a step to make that more of a reality.

 
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Some updates, the first Mi-28UB took flight.

bmpd -

And the Il-112 project has been resumed, presumably this means the MoD won't be buying the An-140T currently under development, though I suspect that other federal agencies will still be forced to buy it. And of course the An-140-100 passenger plane is still getting bought.

Lenta.ru:
 
Feanor

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Interesting news, the MiG-35 purchase is being delayed to post 2016. I personally hope it gets cancelled. Reasons cited are financial.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ìèíîáîðîíû îñòàâëÿåò Ìèà áåç êðóïíåéøåãî êîíòðàêòà, êîòîðûé îáåùàë Ïóòèí
Lenta.ru:

Also Su-25SM2 deliveries are continuing. A total of 71 Su-25SM of all variants have been delivered so far. Contracted are through number 79, which iirc is ~1/3rd of the existing fleet.

bmpd -
 
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