Radar detection range charts

[Burke112]

I saw a graph produced by Air Power Australia called "Detection range of Russian S-band radars" that charted detection ranges of various radar systems against variously sized targets (in terms of RCS).

My question is; where did they get this data? How can someone determine the detection range of a given radar against a certain sized target, without using figures given by a reliable source (i.e. -- the "maximum range" statements made by the USAF or other air forces)? I suppose one could extrapolate those ranges to fit other RCS values (i.e. -- if radar A has range x against a target with RCS y, it would have range f(x) against a target with RCS y/2), but that would seem to leave quite a bit to be desired in terms of the accuracy of the extrapolation...

So, does anyone know where APA got these numbers?

 

[RobWilliams]

As you're a new member, I'm gunna go ahead and point out that APA isn't particularly well (and that's being generous) recieved around here. It's full of misleading, twisted, biased and downright false information which is tailored to suit their own agenda.

So yeah, don't put much faith in anything put out by them, that'd be my advice : )

 

[Burke112]

As you're a new member, I'm gunna go ahead and point out that APA isn't particularly well (and that's being generous) recieved around here. It's full of misleading, twisted, biased and downright false information which is tailored to suit their own agenda.

So yeah, don't put much faith in anything put out by them, that'd be my advice : )

I know that their information is highly suspect, but does anyone know how they came up with the chart/what information they used and how they used it?

Also, what kind of misinformation are you talking about? I know that Kopp claimed to be a "radar expert" without having the credentials, but what other untruthful statements have they made?

As you pointed out, I'm new here, so I'm not an expert by any means .

 

[AegisFC]

UNCLASS sources, manufacturer press releases and probably some good old fashioned guessing to fit their biases.

 

[tonnyc]

Well, if we assume a spherical fighter jet of uniform density....

There is a straightforward connection between RCS and detection range and in theory if everything else is the same, then something with an RCS of x will be detected at half the range of something with an RCS of 2x. However, that assumes that the initial data set is accurate.

Manufacturer claims are often exaggerated. RCS is a gross oversimplification. Different radars have different characteristics.

The chart does follow the theoretical formula for radar detection range, but as I said above, spherical fighter jets of uniform density.

 

[aussienscale]

Manufacturer claims are often exaggerated.

Guessing you mean Russian claims are exaggerated ? Because actual tactical/operational capabilities are never made public knowledge, so are always under actual capabilities in the public domain

 

[Bonza]

I saw a graph produced by Air Power Australia called "Detection range of Russian S-band radars" that charted detection ranges of various radar systems against variously sized targets (in terms of RCS).

My question is; where did they get this data? How can someone determine the detection range of a given radar against a certain sized target, without using figures given by a reliable source (i.e. -- the "maximum range" statements made by the USAF or other air forces)? I suppose one could extrapolate those ranges to fit other RCS values (i.e. -- if radar A has range x against a target with RCS y, it would have range f(x) against a target with RCS y/2), but that would seem to leave quite a bit to be desired in terms of the accuracy of the extrapolation...

So, does anyone know where APA got these numbers?

Why are you posting under two usernames? You know having multiple accounts isn't allowed on these forums...

 

[Bonza]

Incidentally I expect that question to be answered, it isn't optional. Normally when members with multiple accounts are found out they get banned, so I'm giving you a chance to explain yourself, either in this thread or via leaving me a visitor message on my profile. I know you've been online since the question was posted, my advice would be to bite the bullet and get it sorted.

 

[Bonza]

Don't say you weren't given a chance to explain yourself.

 

[kronos319]

The first step in determining the maximum effective range of a radar is to gather data of that radar. This is done constantly (even between "Allies" like UK and USA) and is the primary reason many nations do not utilize their radars at maximum power if it can be avoided.

Radar data is typically gathered using an AWACS, listening ground station or surveillance satellite. Their job is made easier in that the signal they receive only has to travel from the source to them whereas the sender has to wait for the signal to return (theoretically, an AWACS can be twice the maximum radar range far away from the sender and be safe from detection).

The data that must be gathered is typically centered around power, frequency and modulation scheme. However if the sender knows someone is listening, they will typically modify their transmission behavior to limit the amount of useful information that can be gathered.
Like the quoted fuel consumption for cars, there many other factors will influence the range of a radar, primarily weather. Rain, dust, smoke and atmospheric distortions will cause attenuation of the radar signal and reduce the effective range. Mountain ranges and ionospheric activity will further hinder the radar's range. Also remember that a radar signal needs to hit the target and then return to the transmitter so it will be attenuated twice.
Radar Absorbing Material (RAM) will further attenuate a radar signal and the orientation of the aircraft to the radar makes a significant difference (e.g. the F-35 is designed to be most stealthy from the front and less so from the sides and rear).

Once all the necessary data is gathered, it can be entered into a radar model to provide a rough guide as to the maximum range (remember the true maximum range is difficult to determine if the radar is not transmitting at maximum power). To further simplify this calculation, the orientation of the aircraft is eliminated by assuming a solid sphere which reflects evenly at all orientations.

Google search "radar maximum range equation" and you will find some useful resources including the topic of "maximum unambiguous range" (a real world problem). Sorry I cant provide links, haven't posted the required 10 posts yet!

Hope it helps!

 

[Gremlin29]

Much discussion regarding power and returns but none on the processors ability to separate the wheat from the chaff. Targets will be known by the processor and graphically displayed as specific icons or they will not. Some parameters exist to display unknowns but they are restrictive, otherwise the display would be populated to the point of saturation. The quality and ability of such radar is therefore dependent upon the processors sophistication and "threat library".

 

[Abraham Gubler]

A good basic introduction to radars and air warfare survivability is “The Radar Game: Understanding Stealth and Aircraft Survivability” by Rebecca Grant.

Google

 

[gf0012-aust]

To further simplify this calculation, the orientation of the aircraft is eliminated by assuming a solid sphere which reflects evenly at all orientations.

You don't need to imply orientation by the shape of the track management object, the track management trace is doing that for you.

Its not about simplifying the calculation by removing object orientation either, it's about not needing it (eg why would 2525b or 2525c want orientation anyway??)

the operating picture in track management is about showing relevant overlays, you can saturate at will.

the range ring is task/mission dependant

 

[NobodyMinus]

Well, if we assume a spherical fighter jet of uniform density....

There is a straightforward connection between RCS and detection range and in theory if everything else is the same, then something with an RCS of x will be detected at half the range of something with an RCS of 2x. However, that assumes that the initial data set is accurate.

Manufacturer claims are often exaggerated. RCS is a gross oversimplification. Different radars have different characteristics.

The chart does follow the theoretical formula for radar detection range, but as I said above, spherical fighter jets of uniform density.

You should really learn basically anything about the subject before commenting on it. The radar detection range equation without clutter effects from the Earth's surface (assuming high altitude) is
Range Max = ((Transmitted power*antenna gain*2*wavelength^2* radar cross section)/(minimum received power for detection*(4*pi)^3*Loss due to internal attenuation, fluctuation during reflection, and loss to the atmospheric medium))^1/4

This means that all things being considered equal, a target with an RCS of 2m will be detected at about 1.2x the range of a target with an RCS of 1 m. In addition, the type of radar emitted has no effect on detection rance except for affecting the effective RCS of the aircraft when it is at a wavelength far from the RAM depth optimization. It might be noted that almost all radars that achieve this end are long wave radars, and deliver resolutions too low to target with. Density has nothing to do with detection range, and assuming a spherical shape is unnecessary.