The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

Anixtu

New Member
3. What is the difference between a 'minesweeper' and a 'minehunter'? Wouldn't a minesweeper also be fitted with sonar to detect mines - making it in theory, also a 'minehunter'?
In the RN context, all RN MCMVs up to and including the Hunt class were capable of minesweeping. As the Hunts are also capable of minehunting, the mixing of sweeping and hunting has led to the wider adoption of "MCMV" as a catch-all.

The Sandowns are also known as "Single Role Minehunters" - as distinct from the dual-role hunter/sweepers of the Hunt class. However, the Hunts landed their sweep gear sometime last decade and are now also effectively minehunters only, though at least the intention was to maintain the capability to reinstall the sweep gear.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Also, I was on board a frigate last week and on the bridge, I was surprised to see a control panel for a degaussing system. Is it common for combatants to be fitted with degaussing systems?
Someone with more current experience should add to this but in my time, all RAN combatants were fitted with degaussing loops and ships regularly used degaussing ranges to adjust their signatures/effectiveness of these systems after major refits/changes.
In the days when Australia actually built merchant ships, with Commonwealth subsidies off course, DG loops were fitted in these as well as a condition of the subsidy.
I'm fairly sure that this shadowed UK policy.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Someone with more current experience should add to this but in my time, all RAN combatants were fitted with degaussing loops and ships regularly used degaussing ranges to adjust their signatures/effectiveness of these systems after major refits/changes.
In the days when Australia actually built merchant ships, with Commonwealth subsidies off course, DG loops were fitted in these as well as a condition of the subsidy.
I'm fairly sure that this shadowed UK policy.
There was a recent post to the RAN Facebook page showing one of the FFG's wrapped up with cables in a degaussing range.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There was a recent post to the RAN Facebook page showing one of the FFG's wrapped up with cables in a degaussing range.
That is a process called de-perming of wiping, in other words a process to neutralise any accumulated magnetic field from the ships movements over time. Any residual field is negated by a series of loops fitted to the ship.

This is all from memory of my tome during the 60's and 70's, there may have been further advances but you have prompted me to go looking.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That is a process called de-perming of wiping, in other words a process to neutralise any accumulated magnetic field from the ships movements over time. Any residual field is negated by a series of loops fitted to the ship.

This is all from memory of my tome during the 60's and 70's, there may have been further advances but you have prompted me to go looking.

I worked on a couple of contracts where we did similar to subs - except for subs we were doing acoustic mapping.

we actually developed a portable version which we could sail around the sub - the US and Russians use barges, we used to nickname the US gear "boxing rings"
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
The Royal Malaysian Navy has a degaussing range - built by a German company - for surface vessels - I'm not sure if this degaussing range will be used for the pair of SSKs in service.

I would think the mines to watch out for in the coming decade will be stuff like rocket rising mines and bottom influence mines which are enclosed in GRP casings. Sub laid rocket rising mines that are used by the PLAN sound very nasty.

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/weapon/em52mine.asp
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I worked on a couple of contracts where we did similar to subs - except for subs we were doing acoustic mapping.

we actually developed a portable version which we could sail around the sub - the US and Russians use barges, we used to nickname the US gear "boxing rings"
Does the RAN still operate the degaussing range in Sydney Harbor ? I spent many a boring day going back and forth over the station :( Normally quickly followed by the greenies degaussing the TV's on the ship as well, they had a tendency to go a little green over time :)

Cheers
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Dunno if anyone has mentioned it, but HMS Daring is deploying to Australia for the International Fleet Review in October.

Source is today's Navy News...
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yeah, it's part of a wider deployment to the US west coast to take part in BMD trials. 9 month deployment all in all IIRC.
 

1805

New Member
Interesting comment in the media that the Liberals "value for money" review for the deterrent confirms that Trident based SSBN is really the best solution (that must of hurt them!). However I am surprised with the suggestion of only 2 boats, I think if they had suggested 3 that might have been more credible. Unless there is a smooth/prompt transition, the availability of boats can decline at the end of their life; I can imagine it is easy to maintain the deterrent if you have 4 new boats, probably more challenging at the end of their lives? Maybe a longer spread of construction, say laying down one every 2-3 years, although this could cause problems with the current boats coming out of service.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
In terms of overall value for money, there was a review in the past about the cost of 3 options, sub-surface, surface, land based and air. Unsurprisingly, the sub-surface option was the cheapest and - in my opinion - the most flexible and the optimum solution for a deterrent.

CASD is a must, otherwise what's the point. If the UK was involved in a scenario in which there were *really* high tensions, I can't help but believe it would not be beneficial if it was published a UK SSBN just put to sea either. It would signal an intent to escalate.

I'm glad I read that review, from what i've read so far it's not packed with BS trying to bluff it's way through as fact.. It's accepted that cruise missiles cannot give the same level of deterrence and security that current SLBMs can, it's accepted that developing the warheads for cruise missiles/free fall bombs adds a high amount of technical, financial* and shedule risk (critical challenge was thrown in too) to the program which is futher extrapolated later on. Things like development for a cruise missile/FFB warhead something like £8-10bn compared to £4bn for a ballistic missile.

It's also quite good to read that they accept that if any alternatives were to be developed, a fleet of 2 successor SSBNs would still be required anyway to bridge the gap of the Vanguards leaving and the successors coming in.

Overall, this review has been very helpful to the nuclear deterrent IMO (but i'm still reading). The technical and financial comparisons have shown that the methods we're doing now are the most capable and the cheapest, the only real issue Trident can be picked on is the concept of nuclear weapons as a whole. The issue with cruise missiles and posture is more political, but the financial implicaitons - which realistically is the driver of this review - puts that idea down.

The costs of delivering an alternative system could theoretically have been cheaper than procuring a like-for-like renewal of Trident were it not for timing and the fact that the UKdeterrent infrastructure is finely tuned to support a submarine-
based Trident system. Inparticular, the time it would take to develop a new warhead (itself a costly and high riskexercise) is judged to be longer than the current Vanguard-class submarines can safely be operated. Bridging the resulting gap in deterrence capability would involve procuring two Successor SSBNs so that a Trident-based deterrent remains available until at least 2040. Doing that at the same time as investing in the development of a new warhead, new missile, new
platform and new infrastructure means that transitioning to any of the realistic alternative systems is now more expensive than a 3 or 4 -boat Successor SSBN fleet.
*i.e the entire reason for the bloody review.

Although a 4 boat fleet is cheaper apparently (than a new system), be prepared for a 3 boat fleet. Personally that is what I am expecting to happen as much as I would like to see a 4 boat fleet.

EDIT: Update on HMS Queen Elizabeth with some nice arial shots showing the ship with both her islands on.

https://navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/8365

She has only got two sponson sections to be added and the ski jump, the ski jump itself consisting of 5 pieces (+ the lifts*). The ship will be structurally complete in October this year with the rest of the work being fitting out internally. Painting is ongoing with the bulbous bow being primed with red and being given an undercoat of the creamy colour the islands were in.

The ship overall will require 5 coatings of paint, which is 1.5mn square metres of paintwork to be done. Then there's the special deck coatings for the flight deck.

Highly impressed by her progress, won't be long until we've got this ship alongside in Rosyth being fitted out and we see Prince of Wales coming together incredibly quickly, quicker than Queen Elizabeth that's for sure because the sections will have a higher level of quality of the fitting out.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Haven't had the chance to read the whole thing yet but it looks like a pretty solid review. I've always been opposed to the idea of stepping away from CASD but then buying something in the middle - either do the job properly or kill it :)

The LibDems were talking about cruise missiles but it's nice to see them take a trip down reality lane and concede that ballistic missiles do the trick nicely. The fourth boat doesn't save much over the life of the program so it's hard to get excited about the prospect of ditching it.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
It seems pretty valid IMO, i've not read anything which tends to be unreasonable. Even when it talks about how cruise missiles might be 'good' it does list out the risks that the Government must be prepared to take if they went down the route.

This was put out by the LibDems? I expected the report would be full of "it gives everyone 5 eyes, burn it with fire!" type evidence. I've not fully finished it either, but what i've seen has been quite promising.

Currently watching Channel 4 news and it talks about how Trident is "creating conflict within the Coalition", so if this is a LibDem publication then it's just gunna be a couple of nutjobs having the option I outlined earlier.

EDIT: It appears to be they now want to reduce to 3 or 2 boats and end CASD. Savings of £4bn over "several decades", thankfully Jim Murphy (Labour DefSec) agrees with Hammond that a deterrent needs to be able to provide CASD at least and isn't happy with what the LibDems have done.

Thankfull the report agrees that

  • SSBNs are the least vulnerable launch system
  • SLBMs are the least vulnerable delivery system
  • SSBN/SLBM is cheaper than any other proposed alternative
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Ah right, well at least in the brief news piece on Channel 4 earlier Danny Alexander didn't mention alternatives to Trident but was more interested in reducing the SSBN force to save money to 3 or 2 boats.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
2 is a non starter and I'd sooner they binned the deterrent than went to the *ridiculous* lengths of designing a new warhead, boat, reactor etc for two boats, they must have rocks in their heads if they think that's even barely feasible.

3 is chancing your arm but it's an absolute bare minimum - doesn't leave you any room if the boat you send out on patrol meets something coming the other way or gets bent mechanically but you could at least do CASD with it and a following wind. 2 is just a stealth argument to drop the idea entirely and is dishonest.
 

kev 99

Member
just appeared on BBC sort of on topic, dont quite understand how 617 can be reformed if they are going to be given a FAA squadron number though, but hopefully the ac will have FAA markings also !!!!!
BBC News - RAF's 'Dambusters' squadron to be disbanded and reformed
Not sure about that, sounds like some sort misunderstanding on the part of the reporter to me.

Edit - apparently it's on the RAF website so it's probably some MOD PR person who has got it wrong and is assuming the UK F35 force equals=617 squadron.
 
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