US Navy News and updates

[CB90]

I think this is the thing - all the missile solutions heavily overlap with both the 57mm and the two 30mm cannon that are part of the anti surface module anyway. I *believe* the turret carries 120 ready rounds but I could be talking tosh. Given the way the rounds shred targets, I wouldn't rate most FAC's chances of getting very close.

The FACs don't need to get close, seeing as how they are usually armed with anti ship missiles or more effective guns.

Against a FIAC threat, there are limitations to the gun solutions due to the engagement geometry problem. The missile solutions would overlap with guns, but it is complementary, not redundant.

 

[StobieWan]

Understood but surely that's a driver for longer ranged missiles? SPIKE-ER or something similar? If you've got a set of automatic cannon, you want a longer reach with the next system up ?

On engagement geometry - how do you mean ? I know nothing - indulge me if you've a second, I'm interested,

Ian

 

[colay]

Understood but surely that's a driver for longer ranged missiles? SPIKE-ER or something similar? If you've got a set of automatic cannon, you want a longer reach with the next system up ?

On engagement geometry - how do you mean ? I know nothing - indulge me if you've a second, I'm interested,

Ian

My perspective is that the LCS ASuW is intended to counter small boat threats that would typically be armed with automatic weapons, RPGs and ATGMs. The autocannon and missiles would seem to fit the bill, more so once they field a longer-ranged version i.e. Sea Griffin. Perhaps there could be a call for LCS to host powerful missiles down the road but for now CONOPs call for that need to be served by other fleet assets. Both LCS variants are being pitched for,export as MultiMission Combatantarmed with Harpoon, VLS, etc. so technically it could be done.

 

[colay]

Understood but surely that's a driver for longer ranged missiles? SPIKE-ER or something similar? If you've got a set of automatic cannon, you want a longer reach with the next system up ?

On engagement geometry - how do you mean ? I know nothing - indulge me if you've a second, I'm interested,

Ian

My perspective is that the LCS ASuW is intended to counter small boat threats that would typically be armed with automatic weapons, RPGs and ATGMs. The autocannon and missiles would seem to fit the bill, more so once they field a longer-ranged version i.e. Sea Griffin. Perhaps there could be a call for LCS to host powerful missiles down the road but for now CONOPs call for that need to be served by other fleet assets. Both LCS variants are being pitched for export as MultiMission Combatants armed with Harpoon, VLS, etc. so technically it could be done.

 

[CB90]

Understood but surely that's a driver for longer ranged missiles? SPIKE-ER or something similar? If you've got a set of automatic cannon, you want a longer reach with the next system up ?

On engagement geometry - how do you mean ? I know nothing - indulge me if you've a second, I'm interested,

Ian

Basically, what colay said. And yes, that's apparently the range Sea Griffin is going for...reaching out further than the gun to the horizon+"X".

Engagement geometry...it's really an issue for any shipboard gun system from naval guns down to GPMGs. Due to how high they are to low targets, lateral cutouts, and limited depression angle, gun engagement zones are limited. Some obviously fare better than others but still...

For a forward firing naval gun, it's particularly bad for a head on engagement (big bow extension forward). Combine that with closing rates of up to 110kts (70kt Blade Runner + 40kt LCS), the "fuzzy" ROE prior to official declaration of hostilities, and the gun simply doesn't get a whole lot of time to work its magic on targets.

A tail chase scenario obviously works out much better, but then there's no rear facing gun. More importantly, in confined waters, a single swarm can be part of a greater, more complex effort, (ie, drive the target towards one of several more capable groups blocking likely avenues of escape). And if the ship isn't already up to speed, they take quite a bit to dig themselves out and hit their sprint speeds.

 

[MickB]

I may be speaking out of turn, but I see many posts of the need to equip ships of weapons to combat these deadly swarm tactics.
Yet I see no no evidance of these tactics actuly existing
,If the threat is so die and we are so ill equipped why have none of these attacks taken place already.
.

 

[StobieWan]

Look up the term "Boghammer" and see what that gets you - both the RN and USN spent quite a bit of time in recent history putting small craft armed with machine guns and light cannon under the water. Obviously, if everything is running to plan, they'd be detected and engaged by helicopter, preferably over the horizon, and LCS has really good aviation facilities.

We're just kicking around ideas about what to do if the helicopters are unavailable because they're tasked elsewhere (mine hunting for instance, and therefore not configured correctly) or simply someplace else.

 

[harryriedl]

I may be speaking out of turn, but I see many posts of the need to equip ships of weapons to combat these deadly swarm tactics.
Yet I see no no evidance of these tactics actuly existing
,If the threat is so die and we are so ill equipped why have none of these attacks taken place already.
.

especially the complexity vis radio orders which would have to be exceptionally large if their is the marshalling of forces in area from smaller formation, plus the difficulty of keeping track these vessels you really need a JSTAR's solution to have an overall track of your forces.

Also the likely user are highly unlikely to have the communication and other assets to marshal such a force. (the Marine wargame which partly prompted the LCS I belive was done with the sensor coverage that would be highly unlikely in wartime scenario)

 

[MickB]

Look up the term "Boghammer" and see what that gets you

Were They not Iranian boats armed with mgs and possibly rpgs in the 1980s, and you are just now arming yourself against a 30 year old threat.

 

[colay]

I may be speaking out of turn, but I see many posts of the need to equip ships of weapons to combat these deadly swarm tactics.
Yet I see no no evidance of these tactics actuly existing
,If the threat is so die and we are so ill equipped why have none of these attacks taken place already.
.

The threat is a serious one, specially in confined waters such as the Strait of Hormuz. Swarming boat attack was one of the asymmetric tactics employed by Red Force during the Millennium Challenge exercise in 2002 that bloodied a simulated US Navy task force. The numbers and
capabilities of the small boat threat have only grown since.
Iran's fast attack craft fleet: behind the hyperbole - Naval Technology

 

[StobieWan]

Were They not Iranian boats armed with mgs and possibly rpgs in the 1980s, and you are just now arming yourself against a 30 year old threat.

Well, no, USN ships of all shapes and sizes have long been armed against small craft - rather more heavily now than say, 30 years ago, *because* of the increased threat of all sorts of attacks of that sort. With a Burke, you've got plenty of options, ranging from a 127mm round to SM-2 in surface to surface mode, cannon and machine guns plus the embarked helicopter.

LCS is intended to get in there and mix it with smaller ships routinely as part of it's CONOPS and we're just talking about how to fill the gap left by the cancellation of the NLOS missile system.

 

[RobWilliams]

First land based EMALS launch of a Growler on June 25th, glad to see more footage of the unit being used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGfoH-UCwhA

Also, very interesting movement being made on BAE Systems' railgun project with the award of a $34.5mn contract for Phase 2 of the program

http://www.baesystems.com/article/B...&_afrWindowMode=0&_adf.ctrl-state=jl97uw9hc_4

The focus of Phase 2 is to advance the Railgun technology by maturing the launcher and pulsed power from a single shot operation to a multi-shot capability, and incorporating auto-loading and thermal management systems.

It's going to be very interesting to see that develops, the point where it becomes more of a functioning weapon system than a science project/concept.

As to the current LCS chatter, I would consider it more bizarre if the ship wasn't being designed to defend against swarm tactics. They're going to be operating in the littoral, meaning that physically they'll be more vulnerable to swarm attacks considering they'd have a much smaller window to be able to defeat them at relatively short ranges and as the capabilities of swarm fleets increases then it's logical that the tech to defeat them increases too.

Just my thoughts.

Interesting update from the USN about the UCLASS project, the figures have been released about the proposed system, the costs and the sorts of specifications they want the program to produce.

Navy Docs Reveal UCLASS Minimum Ranges and Maximum Costs | USNI News

• Patrol at a minimum range of 600nm from the carrier at the cost of $150mn per orbit
• Primarily ISTAR platform with "limited" strike capability at 2000nm range in a lightly contested environment
• 3000lb payload inc. 1000lb ground weapons capacity inc. JDAM + SDB II
• Can fly "2 unrefuelled orbits" at 600nm and "one unrefuelled orbit" at 1200nm
• Recurring flyaway unit cost of aircraft required to conduct 600nm orbit shall not exceed $150mn

In regards to all the 'orbit' chatter, the article goes on to say the following

This post has been updated to clarify the $150 million maximum cost per orbit for UCLASS does not mean each aircraft will cost a maximum of $150 million. The flyaway costs will pay for the capability for the system (one or multiple aircraft) to patrol 600 nautical miles from a carrier in a 24 hour period.

Still, I should imagine the numbers will ruffle a few feathers online. The typical expectation - while not neccesarily accurate - was for a proper strike UCAV which could penetrate highly contested air space.

 

[CB90]

Were They not Iranian boats armed with mgs and possibly rpgs in the 1980s, and you are just now arming yourself against a 30 year old threat.

Yes. We were completely defenseless for 30 years, and the threat has not evolved at all in that time.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Were They not Iranian boats armed with mgs and possibly rpgs in the 1980s, and you are just now arming yourself against a 30 year old threat.

Part of the problem was not just about the capacity to defend against the threat - but also about relevant ROE's (eg Stark was a reminder of this)

Granted there were changes made to angles of depression for CIWS etc.... but the bigger change was rewriting ROES and making the response layer (onion peeling model) more biblical

the best platforms available at the time are a WOFTAM unless the rules allow them to be used effectively and as the designer and user intended

 

[MickB]

Yes. We were completely defenseless for 30 years, and the threat has not evolved at all in that time.

When I asked about the swarm threat I was pointed towards Boghammers. What I then tried to point out (perhaps badly) that this was 30 years ago and surely there were much more recent developments.
And thanks to StobieWon, GF & Colay I was given clear, helpful answers.

I also wonder if the Pegasus class PHMs had been kept in service longer, might it not have fulfilled some of the LCS surface action role. I know it had no space for mission modules or aviation facilites but it was a compact, nimble and well armed craft. Could it have been evolved into a larger craft and fill the LCS role completely.

 

[MickB]

Another possability that comes to mind, a flotilla of PMHs with an LCS as flotilla leader providing helo and UAV support, space for extra command staff, additional stores, relief crew etc;

In all your own fast, powerful swarm.

Back in WW1 destroyer flotillas often had a light cruiser as leader, the flotillas main role was to defend against swarms of fast torpedo boats, sound fimillar.

 

[CB90]

I also wonder if the Pegasus class PHMs had been kept in service longer, might it not have fulfilled some of the LCS surface action role. I know it had no space for mission modules or aviation facilites but it was a compact, nimble and well armed craft. Could it have been evolved into a larger craft and fill the LCS role completely.

Speed is only part of the solution. For example, if you're doing an escort mission, running away isn't an option unless the HVU is as fast as you are. And pretty much none of them are hitting hydrofoil speeds. Which takes you back to the same problem of killing the swarm as fast as possible...which again tends to take you away from a gun only solution.

A flotilla of PHMs with the NLOS solution we've been talking about would be a different story (improve rate of fire/coverage), but there's also a tendency in the USN to stay away from ships that cannot self-deploy/conduct trans-oceanic crossings.

There is development of the the MK6 patrol craft, but given what community is sponsoring its development, I'm not convinced it's being factored seriously into any kind of CONOPS. Though in theory, an L ship could carry some in its well deck, and spit them out to create its own escort for confined water transits. But again, I'm highly skeptical that anything serious will result out of that line of thinking.

 

[colay]

Perhaps in the future there could be a justification to field a "mini-LCS" based on something like the M8 Stiletto. Much thought has been given to integrating significant sensors and communications capabilities into the craft, making it a natural fit in the networked Navy concept. It's versatility extends to UAV/UUV operations and even accommodates a RHIB allowing it to tackle multiple mission roles. Being fast and sexy and affordable can't hurt as well.
Granted,though, will likely have to hitch a ride for overseas deployment.

 

[CB90]

Perhaps in the future there could be a justification to field a "mini-LCS" based on something like the M8 Stiletto. Much thought has been given to integrating significant sensors and communications capabilities into the craft, making it a natural fit in the networked Navy concept. It's versatility extends to UAV/UUV operations and even accommodates a RHIB allowing it to tackle multiple mission roles. Being fast and sexy and affordable can't hurt as well.
Granted,though, will likely have to hitch a ride for overseas deployment.

Spot on, but you could even say that justification could be made now.
There are a lot of "small war" missions we rope our $1B+ CRUDES units into that could be more effectively and efficiently done by smaller vessels. And with the strategic pivot, there will be places where having a littoral maritime partnership presence could pay off.

Unfortunately, there's no real sponsor for that within the Navy. Traditional Surface Navy thinking produced LCS when presented with the littoral problem. Obviously way too big and way too expensive compared to the original "Streetfighter" concept (which is what we're really talking about here).

Then you have SPECWAR, who's sponsoring Stiletto. They're comfortable with how to operate and support smaller vessels, but they're not tasked with the primary efforts of a MCO conflict, so they design to a very limited scope of requirements.

I think the M80 is roughly the right size to start to build something that scales well for both levels of war, but that would require a truly cooperative effort.
And even if you COULD get those two groups to collaborate, you'd have to successfully stuff this through the Pentagon's "requirements" process. Which tends to look real funny at things that don't quite look like their predecessors. Especially if there is no predecessor.

 

[aussienscale]

First land based EMALS launch of a Growler on June 25th, glad to see more footage of the unit being used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGfoH-UCwhA

The more and more I see of this system, the more I am impressed by what it brings to the table, the smoothness of the launch and the acceleration is amazing. Has anyone seen any figures or estimates on how this system will extend the airframe life of the aircraft ? I would assume the recovery system will also have significant advantages on airframe stress as well ?

If you look at this video and then compare it to a steam launch, very big difference. Would love to eventually see the system on a Ski Ramp somewhere

Cheers